Mescaline (or San Pedro) and tetrahydroharmine (THH)

[69ron]

SWIM has quite a bit of mescaline HCl after his last few very successful extractions. He also has some tetrahydroharmine HCl left over that he ordered recently.

He’s tried tetrahydroharmine with many different psychedelics and the combination has always been very nice for a full blown MAOI compound.

SWIM would like to try tetrahydroharmine HCl with mescaline HCl extracted from San Pedro. His mescaline is nearly white, looks fairly pure, but SWIM is not sure how much impurities are present.

San Pedro contains mescaline, 3,4-dimethoxyphenethylamine, 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenethylamine, 3-hydroxy-4,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine, 4-hydroxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine, anhalonidine, anhalinine, hordenine, tyramine, and 3-methoxytyramine.

Many people say that mixing a standard MAOI with San Pedro is dangerous, which makes sense.

Tetrahydroharmine is a weak SSRI. It’s also a weak MAOI that only effects MAO-A and not MAO-B, and it’s effects are very short lived. This means it's a safer MAOI. It actually belongs to the RIMA sub class of MAOIs, and is not a true full blown dangerous MAOI.

RIMAs do not affect the metabolism of phenethylamines, and are "displaced from monoamine oxidase in the presence of tyramine" so a RIMA like tetrahydroharmine should not be dangerous to use with tyramine or phenethylamines, in theory. The main reason people say you should not mix MAOIs with San Pedro is because it contains tyramine and phenethylamines, but because tetrahydroharmine is a RIMA, this not be of concern right?

Has any ever tried taking tetrahydroharmine with mescaline or with San Pedro cactus?

If you believe the interaction is dangerous, please explain why a RIMA like tetrahydroharmine would be dangerous to use with San Pedro.

 

[TheNtt]

This is a combination SWIM would be interested in trying as well. SWIM has been thinking about getting some San Pedro and making a consumable potion out of it. He doesn't have the supplies to perform a chemical extraction. Does SWIY have any experience with San Pedro potions? He also has some pure THH lying around, but is also concerned about the risk factor.

 

[VisualDistortion]

69ron, where have you been getting your san pedro from?

 

[69ron]

This is a combination SWIM would be interested in trying as well. SWIM has been thinking about getting some San Pedro and making a consumable potion out of it. He doesn't have the supplies to perform a chemical extraction. Does SWIY have any experience with San Pedro potions? He also has some pure THH lying around, but is also concerned about the risk factor.

Yes, SWIM’s first real trip from San Pedro was from boiling a 12 inch cutting in water, filtering and then drinking the concentrated tea. But SWIM prefers a purified extract.

69ron, where have you been getting your san pedro from?

SWIM got his last batch of san pedro from the same place he got his THH. It was pre-dried green outer flesh. It's the first batch he got from that vendor.

He now uses an STB based on d-limonene and calcium hydroxide that SWIM posted elsewhere on this forum. With that tech SWIM got the best yields he’s had. His yield was 0.885% mescaline.



Well, SWIM tried THH with mescaline yesterday. He was very cautious about the dosage. He used 50 mg of nearly pure off white mescaline extracted from San Pedro and 100 mg of THH HCl obtained on-line. The THH looks extremely pure. It’s nearly white with a slight greenish coloring, not as straw colored as earlier batches. The vendor appears to be producing much more pure THH recently.

Keep in mind that SWIM can feel the effects of 50 mg of mescaline HCl on its own. That dose produces a slight stimulant effect and euphoria, but no psychedelic effects.

SWIM dissolved the two powders in a cup of hot spearmint tea and drank it down quickly. SWIM could not taste them, only the strong spearmint tea taste. After about 20 minutes only the effects of the THH were felt: clear relaxed mind, slight tingling in the body, etc.

After about 90 minutes the effects of the mescaline were noticeable. SWIM felt fantastic. The THH increased the euphoria of the mescaline, and increased the aphrodisiac effects.

After about 3 hours it seemed to peak. During that time he felt very relaxed. The THH seemed to block the stimulant effects of the mescaline while increasing the euphoria quite a lot.

The dose was not psychedelic.

After about 5 hours, he drank a strong cup of coffee, and this caused some very minor psychedelic effects to be noticed. Coffee always does this, the THH had nothing to do with it.



Overall, the combination was very pleasant. The THH did not seem to increase the potency of the mescaline, but did increase the euphoria of it and seemed to block it’s stimulant effects, but also increased the aphrodisiac effects of mescaline (which is only really an aphrodisiac at low doses).


I think the MAOI effects of THH do not really work with mescaline so it seems to be a safe combination. SWIM will try a larger dose of mescaline next time.

At 75 mg, SWIM gets minor psychedelic effects from just mescaline alone. At 150 mg, it’s more of a real trip and SWIM starts seeing the wood grain come alive, and experiences quite a lot of effects, but the trip is still light. For SWIM 300 mg is a heavy trip.

Next time SWIM will try 75 mg mescaline with 100 mg of THH and see what happens. That’s the threshold psychedelic dose of mescaline for SWIM. He is expecting more of the same: far more euphoria, more aphrodisiac effects, and a blocking of the stimulant effects of mescaline. We’ll see.

 

[amor_fati]

SWIM got his last batch of san pedro from the same place he got his THH. It was pre-dried green outer flesh. It's the first batch he got from that vendor[...]His yield was 0.885% mescaline.

Ha, that's good to know. SWIM's looking forward to the weekend!

 

[reflexion]

very interesting, 69ron. the stimulant effect is the only thing about mesc/cacti that turns me off.
thanks for sharing!

 

[TheNtt]

This is a combination SWIM would be interested in trying as well. SWIM has been thinking about getting some San Pedro and making a consumable potion out of it. He doesn't have the supplies to perform a chemical extraction. Does SWIY have any experience with San Pedro potions? He also has some pure THH lying around, but is also concerned about the risk factor.

Yes, SWIM’s first real trip from San Pedro was from boiling a 12 inch cutting in water, filtering and then drinking the concentrated tea. But SWIM prefers a purified extract.

Did SWIY get sick from drinking the tea? SWIM's been warned that drinking such a potion will likely make him sick and cause him to puke around 45 minutes after consumption.

Also, why does SWIY prefer extract? What differences has SWIY noted between the two methods?

 

[amor_fati]

This is a combination SWIM would be interested in trying as well. SWIM has been thinking about getting some San Pedro and making a consumable potion out of it. He doesn't have the supplies to perform a chemical extraction. Does SWIY have any experience with San Pedro potions? He also has some pure THH lying around, but is also concerned about the risk factor.

Yes, SWIM’s first real trip from San Pedro was from boiling a 12 inch cutting in water, filtering and then drinking the concentrated tea. But SWIM prefers a purified extract.

Did SWIY get sick from drinking the tea? SWIM's been warned that drinking such a potion will likely make him sick and cause him to puke around 45 minutes after consumption.

Also, why does SWIY prefer extract? What differences has SWIY noted between the two methods?

SWIM's never gotten sick, just had uncomfortable insides.

 

[69ron]

This is a combination SWIM would be interested in trying as well. SWIM has been thinking about getting some San Pedro and making a consumable potion out of it. He doesn't have the supplies to perform a chemical extraction. Does SWIY have any experience with San Pedro potions? He also has some pure THH lying around, but is also concerned about the risk factor.

Yes, SWIM’s first real trip from San Pedro was from boiling a 12 inch cutting in water, filtering and then drinking the concentrated tea. But SWIM prefers a purified extract.

Did SWIY get sick from drinking the tea? SWIM's been warned that drinking such a potion will likely make him sick and cause him to puke around 45 minutes after consumption.

Also, why does SWIY prefer extract? What differences has SWIY noted between the two methods?

No he didn’t get at all sick from drinking the tea. He never has gotten even the slightest bit of nausea from cactus. Only some people get nausea from it.

A purified extract is better because of the following reasons:

1) Its much easier to judge the dose. Cactus varies a lot in potency, but a purified extract does not vary much at all in potency. So you know almost exactly how much you’re taking. With cactus, you really have no idea how much mescaline is present until you try it. It could be weak or extremely strong.

2) You can place an entire 300 mg dose of mescaline in one capsule so it’s far more portable and takes much less space to store than a 12 inch piece of cactus.

3) You can add mescaline directly to a cup of coffee or cocoa and have a pleasant tasting drink. You can’t do that with cactus without it messing up the flavor of the coffee of cocoa.


The effects may or may not be different from the raw cactus, a tea from it, or an extract. It all depends on what the cactus contains and how pure the extract is. Some cactus contains mostly just mescaline, with the other alkaloids at levels too small to notice, while others contains a considerable amount of other alkaloids which are very noticeable. For example, Peyote and Achuma contain many alkaloids other than mescaline that are noticeable. San Pedro, and Peruvian Torch may sometimes the have effects of pure mescaline, because they tend to have less other alkaloids present.

As far as nausea goes, SWIM NEVER GOT NAUSEA FROM CACTUS OR MESCALINE. Maybe this is because of how he prepares his cactus. He always de-spines the cactus and removes the skin. The skin is said to cause nausea. Since he’s never eaten the skin, he doesn’t really know if that’s true or not.

SWIM once did an A/B extraction on achuma using xylene as the non-polar solvent and didn’t wash the final product with acetone. The effects of the somewhat purified extract were pretty much the same as the effects of the cactus. Mescaline wasn’t the only active alkaloid in the extract. It was quite obvious. The first few hours of the trip were very dreamy and sedating, very unlike mescaline, but after that it became more like mescaline, but not completely. It was mg for mg more potent than pure mescaline.

 

[TheNtt]

The skin is said to cause nausea. Since he’s never eaten the skin, he doesn’t really know if that’s true or not.

Hmm... The directions SWIM has for making the drinkable potion says to use the skins, and that the skin is what is active.

Here are the directions SWIM said he was going to follow:

If using a fresh cactus, use 1ft at a time. Cut off the dark green parts (outer layer) and blend skins in a blender by adding skins into the hole in the middle of the lid 1 by 1. Filling the blender halfway at a time. Bring your foam to a simmer and stir. The foam is fat that melts into oil during the cooking. Turn the heat to low once you get a simmer going to turn the fatty foam into oily juice. Strain through your metal mesh baking strainer to remove the cactus flesh from the juice. Allow potion to cool and store in a ziplock bag that is then kept in the freezer until needed. Just defrost when ready to use. The juice is pure cactus juice. No artificial colors, flavors, or additives. It doesnt get any more pure then this. 1ft = 600mg mescaline. The amount of juice from 1ft is 4-8oz.

The skins aren't going to be consumed, but they will be used. Is this similar to what SWIY did to make tea? Do you have any modifications that SWIY would make to these directions?

 

[reflexion]

by 'skin' he is referring to the thin, clearish coating that covers the cactus. just below that is the dark green flesh. its easy to peel off in strips once the cacti has been frozen, ime

 

[69ron]

Yes, the skin I referred to is the waxy hard coating, not actually part of the flesh. It’s like the peel of an apple. The green flesh just under the waxy skin is supposedly where all the alkaloids are, and not in the actual skin. The skin is supposed to cause nausea. Some people are calling the green outer flesh the “skin” so it’s a little confusing.

SWIM de-spines and peels off all the waxy hard skin and normally uses only the green flash directly under the skin when making a tea. The skin is hard and dry, almost with a plastic feel. The green outer flesh is wet and slimy.

I think some pictures would help explain it better.

 

[69ron]

Native shamans who use this cactus prefer to use only the skin and the green material immediately below (they discard the outer wax-like cuticle and the white, pithy interior).

I don't know. Is cuticle a more accurate work to describe the waxy material? Anyway, does it really cause nausea or is that just a rumor?

 

[coz42]

Epidermis, cuticle same is same But would say it wouldn't contain anything related to what SWIM is really after.

SWIM also has purchased pedro from same THH vendor and got a hold of some d-limonene as well. My that stuff does smell good.. compared to other stank
..having a hard time looking for that extraction coverage..

but as I would guess it just takes 1:1 base/cactus and then remove limonene to precipitate out salts?

 

[TheNtt]

Yes, the skin I referred to is the waxy hard coating, not actually part of the flesh. It’s like the peel of an apple. The green flesh just under the waxy skin is supposedly where all the alkaloids are, and not in the actual skin. The skin is supposed to cause nausea. Some people are calling the green outer flesh the “skin” so it’s a little confusing.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[69ron]

SWIM just took 200 mg of tetrahydroharmine HCl, followed 20 minutes later with 50 mg of mescaline HCl.

It's been 30 minutes since he took the THH. He feels a pleasant euphoria and slight stimulation from the THH as well as that THH peaceful feeling and mild tingling sensations. He doesn't feel the mescaline yet.

He's hoping that a 200 mg dose of THH will be a more effective MAOI. That's been the case with DMT where 100 mg of THH barely activated oral DMT for SWIM while 200 mg of THH fully activated DMT for SWIM.

For SWIM, it seems like 200 mg of THH is the full MAOI dose. At this dose, if the mescaline is not 2-3 times more potent, then for sure THH has no MAOI effect on mescaline.

SWIM took a sub threshold dose of mescaline HCl. At 50 mg, mescaline is just slightly stimulating with aphrodisiac effects and no psychedelic effects of any kind are present. At 75 mg of mescaline HCl, he can detect mild psychedelic effects. At 100 mg it's very obviously psychedelic for him, but still very weak. If the full MAOI effects of 200 mg of THH are able to affect mescaline, then the 50 mg dose should feel more like a 100-150 mg dose of mescaline. We'll see.

 

[Jorkest]

cant wait for the results

 

[69ron]

As much as I would have loved to do this test personally (but can't because of the current unjust laws concerning Native American entheogens) I had to get SWIM to do it for me.

Ok, so SWIM says after 2 hours the THH part of the experience peaked and gave way to a more mescaline style experience. At the 4 hour point, the mescaline trip peaked and began to subside.

The effects of the combination were extremely pleasant with lots of euphoria and tingling as well as definite but mild visual and mental psychedelic effects. So it does seem that 200 mg of THH increases the effectiveness of mescaline by about 2 fold. The 50 mg of mescaline HCl felt very similar to 100 mg.

The trip unfolded in waves.

The first part of the trip was slightly stimulating and euphoric. That’s how THH is at first.

After about 1 hour into it, the mescaline was noticeable. The mescaline and the THH mixed to produce an experience that was sort of ayahuasca like, but not exactly. It was very relaxing, there were mild visuals and mild mental psychedelic effects. One could easily drift away to sleep if they so wished. At this point the stimulant effects of the mescaline were muted. The visual and mental effects were not. The euphoria was also not.

After about 3 hours, the THH element was nearly gone, and the trip got weaker for a while until the mescaline started to peak after 4 hours. At that point SWIM felt energized, renewed, refreshed. Thoughts came easily.

There was an element to the trip that reminded SWIM of LSH (lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide) that is very difficult to describe.

Overall, it’s a very unique experience. Definitely different from mescaline alone. It was more relaxed, more dreamy, more peaceful, and every bit as warm as mescaline is on it’s own.

Note that you can drink coffee with THH without any negative reactions. Coffee increases the psychedelic effects of mescaline quite a lot. So one could drink coffee near the peak and experience an enhancement of the mescaline.

 

[bufoman]

MAO-A inhibition is responsible for the "Chesse" effect of many MAOI medications. MAO-B inhibitors and RIMAs do not have this effect as tyrosine levels will not build up. Harmaline, Harmine are RIMAs. THH is a very interesting compound that deserves further evaluation. It is a weak RIMA, has some SSRI effects, it likely has additional effects.

This is a very interesting experiment 69ron good work.

In SWIMs own experience, THH alters the effects of several HA compounds, in quite fascinating ways. SWIM has also found that when THH is ingested in conjunction with stronger MAOIs (Harmaline) it has unique potentiating effects on HA which can not be attribute to either THH or harmaline alone. THH definitely deserves some attention.

 

[69ron]

SWIM has also found that when THH is ingested in conjunction with stronger MAOIs (Harmaline) it has unique potentiating effects on HA which can not be attribute to either THH or harmaline alone. THH definitely deserves some attention.

That's quite interesting.

I’ve read that THH becomes “active” if smoked after taking harmaline or another MAOI. The source did not state what “active” meant.

At 350 mg orally THH by itself becomes quite psychedelic for SWIM, but at the cost of unpleasant side effects (difficulty walking, transient nausea, nervousness, and slight tremors). I’m very curious about mixing harmaline with THH. If the harmaline is taken purely as an MAOI and then 20 minutes later THH is taken, would the THH show new activity and become “active” as I’ve read?

SWIM is unfortunately out of THH for the time being so he can’t do anymore tests for a while.