A thread for the mexica people and for anyone who wants to join our lost arts of the ancient aztec people. You cant become indian but all of us are indigenous earthlings who lack a tribe. The mexica welcomes anyone who is willing to sacrifice our connection to the new world and become spiritual warriors. The aztec people were striped of there culture and now is in need to pic up the broken pieces. ... poetry,shamanic practices and self governing system of the Azteca sun calender. Informatiin and the lost arts of the nahuatlatoli would be discussed. Join us to discuss the red road. Tlazo camati brothers totzicate..
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Mexica peoples and the celestial children
- Thread starter tizoc4u
- Start date
..the aztec people live on...would very much like to hear of their wisdom..
blue lunar night
Rising Star
So this thread is specifically focused on the Aztecs ?
no offense, but when I think 'Aztec', I think of a militaristic, hegemonic society dominated by a priest-class & the aristocracy via claim of Divine Right, & fueled by ritualized mass-murder.
Compared to older MesoAmerican cultures like the Olmec, Mayan, & Toltec, the Aztecs certainly have a reputation for cruelty, brutality, & morbidity... which no sane person would celebrate or desire to resurrect.
Sure, they had Ololiuqui & Teonanacatl, but how much benefit was that when the State was ripping out hundreds of thousands of live human hearts in order to 'spiritually' maintain itself ?
I once had a very intense Ayahuasca vision of all the human sacrifice perpetrated in MesoAmerica, over centuries, & the malevolent entities who are 'nourished' by such spilling of human blood...
So am I misunderstanding your use of the word 'Aztec', tizoc4u ?
Do you find the historical Aztec empire to be noble & beautiful ?
What is the relation between the Aztec empire, & Aztec shamanic wisdom ?
Do they reflect & support each other, or are they in conflict ?
I must ask, because everything I have read about the Aztec empire indicates that it was as ugly & brutal as the Spaniards who conquered it...
no offense, but when I think 'Aztec', I think of a militaristic, hegemonic society dominated by a priest-class & the aristocracy via claim of Divine Right, & fueled by ritualized mass-murder.
Compared to older MesoAmerican cultures like the Olmec, Mayan, & Toltec, the Aztecs certainly have a reputation for cruelty, brutality, & morbidity... which no sane person would celebrate or desire to resurrect.
Sure, they had Ololiuqui & Teonanacatl, but how much benefit was that when the State was ripping out hundreds of thousands of live human hearts in order to 'spiritually' maintain itself ?
I once had a very intense Ayahuasca vision of all the human sacrifice perpetrated in MesoAmerica, over centuries, & the malevolent entities who are 'nourished' by such spilling of human blood...
So am I misunderstanding your use of the word 'Aztec', tizoc4u ?
Do you find the historical Aztec empire to be noble & beautiful ?
What is the relation between the Aztec empire, & Aztec shamanic wisdom ?
Do they reflect & support each other, or are they in conflict ?
I must ask, because everything I have read about the Aztec empire indicates that it was as ugly & brutal as the Spaniards who conquered it...
I often wonder how much we have been told about the aztecs is even true. What do we have to go off of?..the reports of spanish catholic monks and murderers?
We get told all kinds of fake stories about vikings as well..so it's hard to really say how predominant all of this really was in aztec culture.
You are of Aztec ancestory if I am not mistaken tizoc?..
We get told all kinds of fake stories about vikings as well..so it's hard to really say how predominant all of this really was in aztec culture.
You are of Aztec ancestory if I am not mistaken tizoc?..
blue lunar night
Rising Star
Yeah, I mean no disrespect.
I suppose the idea of the Aztecs societal & religious structure as being mostly brujeria is ingrained pretty deep in me.
Of course that may be utterly mistaken...
'Burning Water: Thought & Religion in Ancient Mexico' by French ethnologist Laurette Sejourne supplied a lot of my info.
maybe I still have it around here, & can dig it out.
It's an older book, but she seemed pretty fair in her treatment of the subject.
I suppose the idea of the Aztecs societal & religious structure as being mostly brujeria is ingrained pretty deep in me.
Of course that may be utterly mistaken...
'Burning Water: Thought & Religion in Ancient Mexico' by French ethnologist Laurette Sejourne supplied a lot of my info.
maybe I still have it around here, & can dig it out.
It's an older book, but she seemed pretty fair in her treatment of the subject.
blue lunar night said:
agreed, and I am of spanish and mexican descent.
their motives were empire expansion-driven.
olmecs and toltecs..now they were geniuses;
but as with many other cultures conquered by dominant forces throughout history, their knowledge was absorbed, and their people were obliterated.
The aztec empire was surrounded by a self govern calender. The people wuo got sacrifice were self volunteer, they also took on the responsibility to make the sun rise with the sacrifice with precios human blood. They were not savages and there empire was a self sustained eco system. They new world is far more brutal imo were we send out our children out for war and experiment in our childrens blood for the sake of science. . We pollute our children wwaterand their commonwelth. We are over populating the earth a system like the aztecs make scence. Were every thing revolved on worshiping the hormony of life opposed to our new world order and so called freedom of religion is killing spirituality in general with atheism and so falled revolutionary science. The new world is killing earth..
you're completely ignoring the fact that they conquered and enslaved other tribes.
The aztecs were not always an empire they were opressed people and allied with local tribes to conquer these peopke that took advantage of tribal presence. Yes i see beauty in there life style, there is a difference in mass murder and Voluntary sacrifice and lets not forget that offerings and sacrifice are the central points of many spiritual faiths, theres lots of positive outcomes of growth and knowledge that comes with it. The aztecs would only sacrifise every 52 years at the end of there sun cycle they understood that there empire will perish along with the many other great civilizations. There alot of things we still do not understand seeing it in the eyes of children of the new world, and to the untrained eye it would seem to be true that these acts looked brutal and savage like but in there eyes they took on the responsibility to make the sun go up for all man kind. And to the untrained eye it would seem like a socialistic way of life but in there eyes they were free to practice the gifts and powers that were granted to them by birthright according the the aztec calender. The sto4y they leave behind no matter how brutal it may seem, leaves me at awe as to how much we could learn from them and the many great civilizations before them after all nothing is forever.
There's is alot of hidden shamanic knowledge, new world governing types also inslaved people and created genocide. So your saying they deserved to be wiped out because they were devoted to there dieties and way of life? Sure rebels were captured and inslaved and even sold.
I'd prefer to observe the origins of that knowledge, which as mentioned before, came from olmecs, toltecs and mayans; but that's just me.
it's akin to observing and giving credit to the Roman empire, but neglecting Minoan culture.
it's akin to observing and giving credit to the Roman empire, but neglecting Minoan culture.
The aztecs were the ones that paid a hefty price of cultural genocide for embracing there beliefs which by the way decended from the toltec and maya. They adopted many beliefs that wede not originally theres. Yes they did borrow knowledge from the toltecs and maya. The new Mexica people lies the reminants of these ancient peoples, a mixed culture that again borrows this knowledge. My invitation is of embracing and focusing in all the good things we may aquire from this culture.
I have an amazing & deep respect for Aztec stonecrafting, metalcrafting, arts, poetry, mythology, copal, architecture, language & shamanic/botanic knowledge.
However I too must admit: They had less than briliant practices too. Some out of ignorance, some out of cruelty.
No one people/culture in this world is immune to ignorance & cruelty. Cruel & ignorant people are equally spread throughout all the different peoples of the world.
Don't you agree, tizocu, that believing the sun will only keep rising if people are ritually murdered every now and then is rather ignorant?
Also who would possibly volunteer to lay on a stone altar and have his/her heart cut out with an obsidian knife?
And it also cannot be denied that the Aztec empire was conquering one neighboring tribe after the other. In that sense it indeed was their Karma to
themselves be conquered by yet another "tribe": The Spanish.
Those 2 aspects of Aztec culture are really their weaknesses.
It was a big part of the reason the Spanish conquered them so swiftly despite of being heavily outnumbered.
The Spanish got neighboring tribes, who had been conquered & opressed by the Aztecs, to help them fight the Aztecs.
Or do you have information that suggests otherwise, tizocu?
Should we live more like the Aztecs? Well Yes!
huge aztec pyramids & squares, stonecut and metal laid art,
poetry, great ritual community gatherings, growing our food on chinampas, shamanic ceremonies....
but let's leave out the conquering of neighboring tribes & the ritual bloodshed.
The sun WILL rise the next day if no one is ritually slaughtered. I promise.
And it's better when no one has to have his heart carved out of his chest with a stone knife.
However I too must admit: They had less than briliant practices too. Some out of ignorance, some out of cruelty.
No one people/culture in this world is immune to ignorance & cruelty. Cruel & ignorant people are equally spread throughout all the different peoples of the world.
Don't you agree, tizocu, that believing the sun will only keep rising if people are ritually murdered every now and then is rather ignorant?
Also who would possibly volunteer to lay on a stone altar and have his/her heart cut out with an obsidian knife?
And it also cannot be denied that the Aztec empire was conquering one neighboring tribe after the other. In that sense it indeed was their Karma to
themselves be conquered by yet another "tribe": The Spanish.
Those 2 aspects of Aztec culture are really their weaknesses.
It was a big part of the reason the Spanish conquered them so swiftly despite of being heavily outnumbered.
The Spanish got neighboring tribes, who had been conquered & opressed by the Aztecs, to help them fight the Aztecs.
Or do you have information that suggests otherwise, tizocu?
Should we live more like the Aztecs? Well Yes!
huge aztec pyramids & squares, stonecut and metal laid art,
poetry, great ritual community gatherings, growing our food on chinampas, shamanic ceremonies....
but let's leave out the conquering of neighboring tribes & the ritual bloodshed.
The sun WILL rise the next day if no one is ritually slaughtered. I promise.
And it's better when no one has to have his heart carved out of his chest with a stone knife.
Although i personally would be incapable of such acts i do believe in sacrifice but not of human sacrifice. Im dumbfounded of there level of devotion and humility and respect to there dieties. They believed blood spilled in battle was a waste of blood. I believe the whole sacrifice thing is greatly exaggerated but even so do we not lead are youth into battle and sacrifice human lives at war? I could greatly appreciate there devotion but yes i do agree its a form of ignorance that helped them intimidate there neighboring tribes. I feel that a utopia like civilization should somewhat be a mixture of the simple life of the Huichols, and the complexity of the toltecs. My dad tells tales that the aztec empire knew of there demise beforehand since there calender constantly reminded them of the 5th sun, and the great civilizations that perished before hand. They believed that if they didnt keep there dieties happy there civilization will perish. Its funny that, that same belief is what led to there demise. Coinsedence? They also believed that quetzacoatl will return with a new faith. There devotion to there beliefs was there downfall.. i belive in sacrifice in a symbolic death almost like rebirth or baptism if you will. Breaking the image of self reflection i think we could still learn alot dispite all the negative propaganda about them.
indeed
take the positive (and negative) aspects from that, or any culture...you will find they have similar stories to tell.
that is what make it possible to relate to others with different backgrounds, similar tales of triumph in the face of adversity; it's been written many times over throughout history.
some may disagree, but others will agree...I view culture as a crutch, a sense of familiarity to fall back on for comfort. it alienates, yet it teaches. it's ultimately up to the individual whether or not he/she wants to learn from it, for self/collective preservation, or just knowledge to pass on to future generations....but it should not be eradicated.
take the positive (and negative) aspects from that, or any culture...you will find they have similar stories to tell.
that is what make it possible to relate to others with different backgrounds, similar tales of triumph in the face of adversity; it's been written many times over throughout history.
some may disagree, but others will agree...I view culture as a crutch, a sense of familiarity to fall back on for comfort. it alienates, yet it teaches. it's ultimately up to the individual whether or not he/she wants to learn from it, for self/collective preservation, or just knowledge to pass on to future generations....but it should not be eradicated.
I'm no historian or anthropologist, but I think we need to look at the timescales here. Many of these empires lasted thousands of years, and went through a lot of changes in the meantime. They started from small tribes, build great huge thriving empires that eventually went into decline, and in most of them it's the latter part of their reigns that the less savory aspects come into play the mass sacrifices, brutal wars, cannibalism, this kind of thing. It seems it's just the natural order of things they rise, they flourish, they decline, and they fall.
tizoc4u said:
..two thoughts..
firstly, while i cannot relate to human sacrifice, i think the aztecs get a lot of flak for this, while the maya (so revered by 'new-agers' ) also practiced it...the incas also of course..
at the time of the spanish conquest, we should also remember the inquisition was fresh, and gallows in the streets were common all throughout europe..questioning religious doctrine, or the throne, or stealing a loaf of bread because of hunger would get you hung or worse..
secondly, much of this sacred meso-american knowledge (incl. the so-called mayan calendar, also aztec) appear to come from the mysterious Olmec of mexico...i have been told the aztecs apparently held the olmec in very high regard..
.
firstly, while i cannot relate to human sacrifice, i think the aztecs get a lot of flak for this, while the maya (so revered by 'new-agers' ) also practiced it...the incas also of course..
at the time of the spanish conquest, we should also remember the inquisition was fresh, and gallows in the streets were common all throughout europe..questioning religious doctrine, or the throne, or stealing a loaf of bread because of hunger would get you hung or worse..
secondly, much of this sacred meso-american knowledge (incl. the so-called mayan calendar, also aztec) appear to come from the mysterious Olmec of mexico...i have been told the aztecs apparently held the olmec in very high regard..
.
I talked to some elders about this. They told me that i sshoud use my logic when discussing things like human sacrifice in the codexes that were help mad3 by the freyleros españoles they say that the aztecs punctures the rib cage with a knife and extracted the heart. Now in my point of view that seems very difficult since our rib cage protects our hearts. They also said we extracted the hearts while it was still beating. He told me to extract a heart in that manner would be very difficult and hard to accomplish. He also told me that the spanish had to have an excuse to invade us since they were a barbaric people that did exactly that. Invade people. I also read in another book that the Mexica took prisoners instead of killing these rebels in battle like in the us england spain or any of the traditional battle practices, they took these prisoners and instead of killing them on the spot they captured them. And that these people were the ones who in fact were probably used in these so called rituals. I am nnotsure and would not be able to say for sure if human sacrifice did or did not happen. But in a logical world there are always 2 sides to a story. And unfortunately they never let us tell our side. And attempted to erase our cuture and traditional beliefs.
Another thing I wanted to add, is that all the rituals that were performed were done by priest and holy men and were done in a stage like setting so to say that the mexica were blood thirsty people is a common misconception. Since the common people would never ever be able to engage in such practices. Its like saying that that Europeans were mmorbid and barbaric people for doing public executions and hangings. Every civilización has there wrongs lets nit paint a dirty picture of my peoples please. Tlazo camati. Toztikate
Another thing I wanted to add, is that all the rituals that were performed were done by priest and holy men and were done in a stage like setting so to say that the mexica were blood thirsty people is a common misconception. Since the common people would never ever be able to engage in such practices. Its like saying that that Europeans were mmorbid and barbaric people for doing public executions and hangings. Every civilización has there wrongs lets not paint a dirty picture of my peoples please. Tlazo camati. Toztikate
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