Science paper Microdosing psychedelics and the risk of cardiac fibrosis and valvulopathy: Comparison to known cardiotoxins

A new paper about the risks that may be associated with the use of psychedelics for micro dosing.

At times this practice has been promoted by members of the nexus. I think it’s important that we consider that the promotion of the practice of micro dosing might not be a good idea. Especially when considering that the proposed benefits seem to be mostly placebo effects.




Abstract
Though microdosing psychedelics has become increasingly popular, its long-term effects on cardiac health remain unknown. Microdosing most commonly involves ingesting sub-threshold doses of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), psilocybin, or other psychedelic drugs 2–4 times a week for at least several weeks, but potentially months or years. Concerningly, both LSD and psilocybin share structural similarities with medications which raise the risk of cardiac fibrosis and valvulopathy when taken regularly, including methysergide, pergolide, and fenfluramine. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine, which is also reportedly used for microdosing, is likewise associated with heart valve damage when taken chronically. In this review, we evaluate the evidence that microdosing LSD, psilocybin, and other psychedelics for several months or more could raise the risk of cardiac fibrosis. We discuss the relationship between drug-induced cardiac fibrosis and the 5-HT2B receptor, and we make recommendations for evaluating the safety of microdosing psychedelics in future studies.

 

[The_Embalmer]

Something you can grow and take into your own control the only way to prevent you would be to reach you on fear and what better way than to drop something about the heart to a community of people that ingest psychedelics to mess with their next trip.

Anyone remember the sacklers? That really happened. (Which they still did no time for)


Anyone remember mk ultra?


That also happened.


I understand I'm making extreme comparisons but my point being why wouldn't this be happening?

 

[ermit]

You have to look on how the research and pharma industry work. As psychedelics were banned until recently, they weren't a threat for pharma.
Pharma is also looking at patentable molecules for treatments. Common psych molecules are not patentable (formulaes, compounds, way of administration could, but it would not yield a ton of money, so it's quit low-interest for big pharma).
Current pharma effort is directed to molecules that are similar to classic psychs and which doesn't present their side-effects ("tripping" is being one, lol).

It's not impossible that pharma would try to invest into studies showing that classic psychs are baaaaad, in order to promote their own psych-inspired patented molecules, but for now, they haven't found anything (patentable psych-inspired).

Another things:
- FDA is currently looking at psilocybin, LSD and co (the paper I posted above is partly about this)
- lot of clinical trials are already done, planned or ongoing: done by a relatively healthy mix of public sector actors, non-profit actors and private actors. Lot of clinical trials in Europe too, and mostly by public sector actors
- the field is more and more popular at research level

All of this means that a lot of eyes are currently looking at this field, including fundamental researchers and public bodies. It means that it would be much more difficult for a private actor to make shady moves, push false claims and push their own agenda.

 

[The_Embalmer]

well thats fair, and that definitely makes sense and is a good point.

i suppose i can sometimes get a little bit too in my head

 

[610nanometres]

Personally, I don’t believe those microdosing studies are credible, or that the effects of microdoses are nothing more than placebo. In my experience, 100-200mg of cubensis mushrooms has predictable, undeniable, distinct, and consistent physical and mental effects similar to the way caffeine and THC effect me in distinct and predictable ways. In other words, I don’t believe the effects of psilocybin on my mood are any more attributable to placebo than the effects of caffeine on my wakefulness or the effects of THC on my stress levels. YMMV

The phrase 'just the placebo effect', or any other that perpetuates such a pejorative view of what is, by all 'normal' metrics, a completely fucking incredible and inexplicable occurrence, is deserving of some serious disdain, in this ones opinion.
I'm going to go with my own experience, thanks, especially when it chimes with much of what seems to be the norm. And yes, what I am choosing to believe could well be more hippy confirmation bias, but the things I seem to choose to confirm come more from nature and my heart, and the more I open myself to mind/heart/consciousness expanding experiences, with the use of mainly, but not exclusively, plant based molecules, the more I not only begin to see a way (the way?) but find it harder to fathom how I couldn't see this way, before.
Are there health considerations? I would say that very much depends on how you feel about the definition of consideration, in this context, but this body we have been given is so spectacularly resilient and capable, that some light 'abuse' in the pursuit of higher goals is not only inconsequential, it is maybe even beneficial, as a life without struggle is indeed a life without colour.
Peace, Love and Pick your battles.

 

[610nanometres]

Sugar and saturated fat comes to mind

Indeed, but how much refined and complex carbohydrate do, say, Tour de France riders consume? The body can function incredibly on many energy sources, and surely industrialised 'food' is the worst of these, but demonisation of certain food groups seems nonsensical and counterintuitive, when it comes to an honest appraisal of what can and does work and is 'healthy'.

 

[Varallo]

The phrase 'just the placebo effect', or any other that perpetuates such a pejorative view of what is, by all 'normal' metrics, a completely fucking incredible and inexplicable occurrence, is deserving of some serious disdain, in this ones opinion.

Please refrain from using language that doesn’t belong here, read the attitude page if you have to. Then onto the tone of your post, I really don’t think that this is all to constructive or that it leads towards a fruitful conversation, it’s polarizing to belittle people that might have another opinion on the subject.

 

[610nanometres]

I’m glad we have professional scientists doing research in this area! Otherwise, it would be like the blind leading the blind.

When it comes to the exploration of inner/outer space, with the assistance of plant-based (or not) molecules, I am of the opinion that my mind and body are mine to experiment with as I see fit. Psychedelics are so powerful because they show you a previously unimaginable perspective in a way that can be questioned, but never denied, or forgotten.
That this avenue of research was closed to the world for decades has undoubtedly retarded humankind in incalculable ways.
Peace, love and time for more research.

 

[ommani]

When it comes to the exploration of inner/outer space, with the assistance of plant-based (or not) molecules, I am of the opinion that my mind and body are mine to experiment with as I see fit. Psychedelics are so powerful because they show you a previously unimaginable perspective in a way that can be questioned, but never denied, or forgotten.
That this avenue of research was closed to the world for decades has undoubtedly retarded humankind in incalculable ways.
Peace, love and time for more research.

Hi, the last post of mine that you quoted (about the scientists) was meant to be tongue in cheek. I even posted it (unintentionally) on April fools day.

*******************************************************

Regarding the topic of that microdosing study showing microdosing to be placebo, I think part of the issue is how they came to that conclusion - from what I remember reading, they measured the results of a course of microdosing on mental health using one particular set of measures. Maybe if they used a different set of measurements, they would have found the effects of microdosing to be more notable.

Personally, I think of microdosing as something that can help on a day to day basis, like drinking tea to wake up in the morning or vaporizing some cannabis to lift my mood. I don’t expect daily caffeine or thc to have lasting effects on my energy or wellbeing but they certainly help, day to day.

Perhaps, for some people, an ongoing practice of microdosing could have lasting effects, but that hasn’t been my experience, despite experimenting with taking microdoses off and on for years, at this point.

The other issue concerning microdosing is that of felt effects. I remember reading a quote attributed to James Fadiman or one of his colleagues that “sub perceptual” refers to a dose without visually psychedelic effects, not one that can’t be felt or perceived in any way.

A microdose that can be felt clearly has an effect that is distinct from placebo, in terms of felt relaxation, energy, and/or mood elevation. I’m sure these felt effects can and do get mixed together with a placebo effect, just as with full/psychedelic doses, which is obviously not a bad thing.

Whether or not these time-limited effects add up to lasting change is presumably determined by multiple variables beyond the actual microdose, such as whether the practice of microdosing facilitates the development of positive habits and the reduction of unhealthy ones.

 

[Varallo]

I agree and share your experience Omani, micro dosing is not something that is working for me either.

There is a lot of interesting stuff being done in determining if and what the effects of psychedelics are on for example depression. I recently found this article on the masking of the effects from ketamine on depression with an anesthetic, in order to differentiate between psychological and physiological effects of ketamine on depression.

Randomized Trial of Ketamine Masked by Surgical Anesthesia in Depressed Patients - PMC

Ketamine may have antidepressant properties, but its acute psychoactive effects complicate successful masking in placebo-controlled trials. In a triple-masked, randomized, placebo-controlled trial, 40 adult patients with major depressive disorder ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

As for micro dosing more and more research points to a placebo effects at best, the problem is there’s also now emerging evidence that the practice could have negative side effects. The issue is than that the placebo effect might not outweigh the negative, especially when taking into account that there are many other things that could be used for placebo effects that have no negative side effects.

As to 610nanometers, please stay on the topic.

 

[ommani]

I agree and share your experience Omani, micro dosing is not something that is working for me either.

There is a lot of interesting stuff being done in determining if and what the effects of psychedelics are on for example depression. I recently found this article on the masking of the effects from ketamine on depression with an anesthetic, in order to differentiate between psychological and psychological effects of ketamine on depression.

Randomized Trial of Ketamine Masked by Surgical Anesthesia in Depressed Patients - PMC

Ketamine may have antidepressant properties, but its acute psychoactive effects complicate successful masking in placebo-controlled trials. In a triple-masked, randomized, placebo-controlled trial, 40 adult patients with major depressive disorder ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

As for micro dosing more and more research points to a placebo effects at best, the problem is there’s also now emerging evidence that the practice could have negative side effects. The issue is than that the placebo effect might not outweigh the negative, especially when taking into account that there are many other things that could be used for placebo effects that have no negative side effects.

It’s a complex topic. For me, there’s no question that taking a high enough microdose where I can clearly feel it, but am nowhere close to tripping and can go about my day, typically has a mood elevating effect that I don’t believe is placebo. However, I haven’t personally found microdosing, in and of itself, to have lasting/transformative effects, so I can see the possibility of placebo being partially or entirely responsible for the perception of long term benefits.

Again, this issue is compounded by the question of what people are doing along with the microdosing. If the mood enhancement, energy, and/or relaxation helps someone to live a healthier life then microdosing could have lasting benefits. Otherwise, it might be more like an ordinary pick me up, such as drinking a cup of tea.

The same can be said of full/psychedelic doses, the benefits of which might last for days, weeks, months, or even years, but are still time limited, in my experience. This all points to the value of integration and what I believe to be the importance of *not* compartmentalizing psychedelics in a way that sets them apart from the rest of life.

Personally, I’ve been avoiding microdosing (psilocybin), as I find that for me it can be emotionally destabilizing in the sense of appearing to elicit higher highs and lower lows. Full doses can have similar effects, in my experience, but overall seem more reliable (and certainly more powerful) in terms of improving mental health and well-being.

Microdosing harmalas is a separate topic, imo, from microdosing psilocybin, as the effects and mechanisms of action are very different. However, I’ve been avoiding that too, as higher amounts feel too sedating and lower doses seem to be limited in terms of their beneficial effects.

 

[_Trip_]

but demonisation of certain food groups seems nonsensical and counterintuitive, when it comes to an honest appraisal of what can and does work and is 'healthy'

I would respectfully disagree. It's not nonsensical or counter-intuitive. Comparing calorie requirements of a healthy elite athlete to say the average person is nonsensical. There is a mountain of evidence as to why certain foods should/ are demonised and rightly so.

 

[610nanometres]

I would respectfully disagree. It's not nonsensical or counter-intuitive. Comparing calorie requirements of a healthy elite athlete to say the average person is nonsensical. There is a mountain of evidence as to why certain foods should/ are demonised and rightly so.

I'm not talking about calorie requirements, rather this idea that carbs or sugar are inherently bad. If you do a lot of exercise, it seems, your body can process enormous amounts of simple carbohydrates, and if you are sedentary, this will cause huge health issues
As for staying on topic, points of view that don't tally with yours are part of what makes an adult conversation. I've simply stated that the 'placebo' effect is a pejorative term, used to try and detract from what is essentially the body completely healing itself, for no apparent reason, and with no intervention that the medical 'profession' recognises, or can explain, any mechanism for.
I wonder why no money is spent on research to activate the 'placebo effect' whenever anybody gets sick? Maybe because helping people heal themselves for free is very bad business practice?

 

[ommani]

I'm not talking about calorie requirements, rather this idea that carbs or sugar are inherently bad. If you do a lot of exercise, it seems, your body can process enormous amounts of simple carbohydrates, and if you are sedentary, this will cause huge health issues
As for staying on topic, points of view that don't tally with yours are part of what makes an adult conversation. I've simply stated that the 'placebo' effect is a pejorative term, used to try and detract from what is essentially the body completely healing itself, for no apparent reason, and with no intervention that the medical 'profession' recognises, or can explain, any mechanism for.
I wonder why no money is spent on research to activate the 'placebo effect' whenever anybody gets sick? Maybe because helping people heal themselves for free is very bad business practice?

What I perceived as the disparaging tone of the original post concerning the placebo effect ruffled my feathers, as well. I think the so called placebo effect plays a larger role in the potential healing benefits of psychedelics, in doses large and small, than it gets credit for. That’s not to diminish the value of psychedelics, but to round out the picture of how they seem to work. Surely, the belief and expectation that something will be helpful, along with the intention to benefit from a given substance and/or practice all play a role in the healing/therapeutic effects, thereof.

 

[Varallo]

My remarks on staying on topic have little to do with what you call adult conversation. So far you started out with a statement that you think you “don’t have to worry about it” and then when the statement didn’t get attention you started talking about your opinion on placebo effects and how you view them.

What I mean by staying on topic is that this topic is about the discussion of the paper in the original post, the relationship between microdosing and heart disease, so far you have just vented your thoughts on placebo effects and have done so in a confrontational manner using curse words to add drama.

No need for that here, just make a topic about it and post your opinions there.

Take care

 

[ommani]

I realize that it’s just one person, but Albert Hoffman was apparently fond of microdosing LSD and lived to be 102 years old.

 

[Transform]

I realize that it’s just one person, but Albert Hoffman lived to be 102 years old and was apparently fond of microdosing LSD.

I'd love to see some supporting information for that assertion; I recently read something that suggested he more or less stopped taking the substance once he'd grasped what it was about. Now, if only I could remember exactly where that was!

 

[ommani]

I'd love to see some supporting information for that assertion; I recently read something that suggested he more or less stopped taking the substance once he'd grasped what it was about. Now, if only I could remember exactly where that was!

That’s a fair request - unfortunately, I don’t have a good source for that information (citation needed). It’s just something I remember reading somewhere - that Albert Hoffman believed low/microdoses of LSD to be promising/beneficial.

 

[Varallo]

I'd love to see some supporting information for that assertion; I recently read something that suggested he more or less stopped taking the substance once he'd grasped what it was about. Now, if only I could remember exactly where that was!

I always thought that he took low doses on and of at times in hoping to find a use for it and suggested it as an alternative for Ritalin. Anyway I’m thoroughly impressed with his 102 years, especially with him being a chemist in the first half of the previous century that’s a record.

 

[The Traveler]

Let's not move into the conspiracy theories areas people, they have no place on this platform.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[610nanometres]

I'm a bit confused. It seems I'm being moderated by a non-moderator who doesn't like people vocalising points of view they don't like. It this a place for adult conversation and debate, some of it possibly irreverent, or is it a place where people get offended by everything they don't agree with.
Sorry for the bad word earlier, for those with very sensitive ears, but the placebo effect is effectively a miracle...