My first ayahuasca experience: vomit yes, but no visual or teaching. What went wrong?

[Hara]

So I discovered ayahuasca a week ago. I researched it like crazy. I felt like I was being called to use it. I feel stuck in my life, and I was hoping ayahuasca could point me in the right direction, heal my chacras and let me discover unconditional love.

Recipe:

- 50 gram of chacruna leaves (with the normal non - boiling method)
- 2 gram resin caapi red 30 : 1



After cooking the leaves for 2x2 hours, I mixed the 2 volumes together, I let it vaporide more water. After that I put in the caapi resin extract of 2 gram. I mixed it and waited to let it get cold. After cooking and mixing: 500 ml water with the chacruna and caapi.

I took 2 gram of that caapi, thinking it was 1 gram = 30 gram, so I took 2 gram to make it 1 : 1 more or less. Since it was the Maoi component I figured if it was a bit more it was ok.

Usage:

I drank 1 cup (normal coffee cup) of liquid at 21.30.
At 21.40 I vomited for 10 min. After that I felt ok again , but drowzy but in a meditation state. I could meditate very easily. So I waited and closed my eyes till the it started to work. But 2 hours later still it wasnt working so I gave up on it :/ I was really disappointing cause I hate the vomoting but it would be worth it.

So I wonder what I did wrong? Why didnt it work? (no visions, no illusions, no visual, no teaching)

Did I use to little of caapi? I am thinking to drink the liquid again after first using 4 gram syrian rue. Or maybe there is not enough DMT in the leaves???

Thank you for helping me on my spiritual and healing journey

 

[Jagube]

I drank 1 cup (normal coffee cup) of liquid at 21.30.
At 21.40 I vomited for 10 min.

You vomited the medicine before it got a chance to work. You want to hold it in for 45 minutes to an hour at least.

The liquid volume was huge, my servings are under 10ml. Watery tea is absorbed less efficiently and perhaps also easier to vomit.

Then I don't know about your caapi extract. In my experience with a few, they're bunk. Best to brew your own caapi. And don't brew a single dose, but make like 30 at once. You don't drive 30 minutes to the supermarket to buy a single walnut.

 

[Hara]

Thank you Jagube for the advice. I was researching it this morning and realised the dose and volume was waaaayyyyyy to much to handle. I saw the "cups" they used in the amazone. Ah it was a good experience (exept the vomiting then) but I will vaporize more water and take a way smaller dose.

Again thank you for the advice, I appreciate it enormously

For now I will not alter the components. Although I have a feeling to much maoi is always better then to little? I do have seeds of Syrian rue. Should I eat 3 gram with the liquid I made? Or should I first just use a less dose?

I will update this topic when I tried again (today or tom)

edit:

I did make much more (by accident). So at least that is a good thing

 

[Jagube]

For now I will not alter the components. Although I have a feeling to much maoi is always better then to little? I do have seeds of Syrian rue. Should I eat 3 gram with the liquid I made? Or should I first just use a less dose?

If you take too much MAOI, but not overly too much, then yes, it's better than too little.
Syrian rue is quite consistent and reliable as a MAOI, so if you want to dip your toes in the Aya(analogue) space and minimize the number of variables / unknowns and carry out experiments without it costing a lot of money, time and energy, it is an avenue that may be worth exploring. Once you get the hang of it, you can try Caapi and see how they compare.

I'm not sure what your liquid is and what the amounts are, but 3 grams of Rue is a reliable dose for most people, so if you take that with some chacruna tea, I would expect it to activate the Light fully.

 

[Hara]

Hey, thank you again for your advice. I tryed again yesterday:


Recipe:
- 50 gram of chacruna leaves (with the normal non - boiling method)
- 2 gram resin caapi red 30 : 1
- 300 ml water left after vaporizing and mixing chacruna and the capi and taking 1 cup 250 ml the first time (which ended in cleansing after 10 min)

-----------

So the first time I took to much at once, cleansed it out before it could work. So this is what I did now (yesterday):

22.00: I took 1 tbsp of this previous made liquid (recipe). I waited till 23.00 nothing happend. I felt a bit relaxed and my mind was quiet but I didnt purge or felt anything else.

23.00: I took 2x tbsp: again nothing happend

24.00: I took again 2x tbsp + 3 gram syrian rue. I had a problem vinding a way to grind the seeds (so I just tryed to sqeeze them with a pincers. Which didnt work very well. Atleast they were crushed a Little bit. So I just drank it with water + again 2x tbsp of the recipe charcruna and caapi.

1.00: again nothing happend. I tryed eating a slice of bread with butter to provoke it but nothing happend.

2.00: I went to bed, disappointed

-----------------

1) So my conclusion is that because the rue should be pretty consistent in concentration and activity, I can only conclude that the chacruna is bad?

I gonna try something else today and make the next recipe:

- 90 gram confusa rootbark shredded (cooking 2x 4 hours)
- 1 liter water
- 10 gram grinded syrian rue (cooking together with the confusa)
- 1 tbsp of vinegar

2) What is the best amount of liquid left after mixing the 2 components together? Like 250 ml? I dont have something to measure the grams, so I just take 1 tbsp = 5 gram rue.

I gonna continue my spiritual journey, I not gonna give up just like that

Cheers!

 

[Jagube]

I'm confused by the way you specify the amounts taken. The standard ('canonical') way is to say how many grams of the original dried Chacruna and Caapi material's worth was consumed.

If your tea contained 50g Chacruna and 2g of your extract, and that was diluted to 300ml, then you didn't consume much at all. 1tbps is 15ml, which is 2.5g Chacruna and 0.1g Caapi extract. That's nothing and no wonder you didn't feel it. Then you took twice that (5g Chakky and 0.2g Caapi extract) an hour later, that's still nothing. And the other 5g Chakky and 0.2g Caapi extract another hour later is still another nothing. You basically drank a few tablespoons of water.
There couldn't have been much of a cumulative effect of your subsequent doses, because gut MAOI doesn't last that long; with Caapi it can be up to 2 hours, but it can be gone within an hour, and for reliability you want to take your leaf within 20 minutes of the Caapi (this is still debated and seems to vary between individuals).

The only time you had enough gut MAOI to activate the Light was when you took the 3g Rue. But it was with only 5g Chakky, not enough Light.

It's not clear how you prepared the Rue. Did you boil it or eat the seeds? The most surefire way is to chew the raw seeds for a few minutes and swallow them.

I don't know about your Caapi extract, what does the 30:1 mean? The extracts I have used were liquid and 30:1 meant 1ml corresponded to 30g of fresh plant material. Fresh material is weaker than dry, because it's 50% water. You want to consume 300g of fresh plant material's worth, which in the case of liquid extracts would be 10ml, but my extract was super-weak and even 20ml wasn't quite enough.

Your leaf to vine ratio may be off. You probably want more vine.

But I suggest you stick with Rue for now, until you get some success.

Do you know where your leaf is from? Hawaiian leaf is stronger than Peruvian.

Assuming your leaf is good at 30g (which it may or may not be), I'd reduce 30g worth of Chacruna tea to 10-20ml. Then eat 3g raw Rue seeds and drink the Chakky perhaps 10 minutes later.

 

[Hara]

I'm confused by the way you specify the amounts taken. The standard ('canonical') way is to say how many grams of the original dried Chacruna and Caapi material's worth was consumed.

If your tea contained 50g Chacruna and 2g of your extract, and that was diluted to 300ml, then you didn't consume much at all. 1tbps is 15ml, which is 2.5g Chacruna and 0.1g Caapi extract. That's nothing and no wonder you didn't feel it. Then you took twice that (5g Chakky and 0.2g Caapi extract) an hour later, that's still nothing. And the other 5g Chakky and 0.2g Caapi extract another hour later is still another nothing. You basically drank a few tablespoons of water.
There couldn't have been much of a cumulative effect of your subsequent doses, because gut MAOI doesn't last that long; with Caapi it can be up to 2 hours, but it can be gone within an hour, and for reliability you want to take your leaf within 20 minutes of the Caapi (this is still debated and seems to vary between individuals).

The only time you had enough gut MAOI to activate the Light was when you took the 3g Rue. But it was with only 5g Chakky, not enough Light.

Thank you again Jagube, I learn so much from you. I cant tell you enough how much I appreciate it! I mixed the caapi with the charcuna while I was cooking it. (not boiling). Does it matter if I cook them together or not? How did you do the calculation to get the amount of caapi and chacruna per tbsp?

EDIT: Ah I see, I just have to calculate 1/20 of the 50 gram chacruna and 1/20 of the vine.

I take this info to my next tries and be sure to take enough.

It's not clear how you prepared the Rue. Did you boil it or eat the seeds? The most surefire way is to chew the raw seeds for a few minutes and swallow them.

I crushed them a little bit and swallowed them with a bit of water.

I don't know about your Caapi extract, what does the 30:1 mean? The extracts I have used were liquid and 30:1 meant 1ml corresponded to 30g of fresh plant material. Fresh material is weaker than dry, because it's 50% water. You want to consume 300g of fresh plant material's worth, which in the case of liquid extracts would be 10ml, but my extract was super-weak and even 20ml wasn't quite enough.

Your leaf to vine ratio may be off. You probably want more vine.

But I suggest you stick with Rue for now, until you get some success.

Do you know where your leaf is from? Hawaiian leaf is stronger than Peruvian.

Assuming your leaf is good at 30g (which it may or may not be), I'd reduce 30g worth of Chacruna tea to 10-20ml. Then eat 3g raw Rue seeds and drink the Chakky perhaps 10 minutes later.

The 30 :1 was (mentioned on the website) as 30 gram : 1 gram caapi. So yeah I didnt use enough maoi the first time. The second time I didnt took enough DMT >_< Atleast I learned from my life experiences I took 2 gram of the extracted resin caapi to make it 1:1 ratio. (more or less). I thought it ment to be concentrated caapi, 1 gram = 30 gram. So 2 gram = 60 gram caapi with 50 gram chacruna. Was this an incorrect way of thinking?

I dont know where the leaves came from to be honest. I will try to delute the chacruna brew next time to the amounts you told me.
I will first try the syrian rue brew today. How much gram should I focus on with the confusa? I assume it is not the same 30 gram as with the chacruna?

My focus will be:

3 gram rue and 10 - 20 gram confusa. (I think the vendor sold me tree bark instead of root :/ )

Cheers!

 

[Hara]

Ok, yesterday was much more successful.
I still didnt got all in but I was semi in.

I made the following recipe yesterday and tried it out:

- 90 gram confusa rootbark shredded (cooking 2x 4 hours)
- 1 liter water
- 10 gram grinded syrian rue (cooking together with the confusa)
- 1 tbsp of vinegar

------------

I was left with 400 ml mixture. I think still a bit weak. But my calculations were as follow:

1 tbsp = 15 ml
400 ml water / 15 = 1/26.6

3.38 gram confusa per tbsp
0.38 gram seed per tbsp

My focus was to get in atleast 3 gram of seeds and 10 gram confusa
-----------------
Preparation:

21:30 Took 3 gram Seeds
21:40 Took 3 tbsp confusa recipe (didnt feel much) = 10,28 gram confusa - 2,28 seed
22:10 took 3 tbsp confusa recipe (felt a bit more) = 10,28 gram confusa - 2,28 seed
22:25 Took 3 tbsp confusa recipe (felt much more) = 10,28 gram confusa - 2,28 seed

I felt it working, no visions or illusions etc. But I do felt very relaxed, I felt like going outside into my garden and had the intense pleasure of looking at some lights coming through some branches of plants of my garden. The lights were little but how more I looked at them how bigger they became. The colors were more vivid while the surroundings became grayish. The lights changed shapes. I saw fallen leaves on the ground being some kind of patron. Like hieroglyphs on the floor. I felt spirits (I think) in the plants of my garden.

I was very aware, I was smoking some cigarettes while I was enjoying the view. I did not have any external happening, vision, other worlds, etc but a strong connection to lights and nature bu just looking at them.

After some hours I went to bed. (I didnt vomit) I woke up around 6.00 in the morning and got an answer on one of my life questions (why I was stuck in life) just like that. So I was really happy with that.

In my calculations I took in enough maoi and DMT yet it didnt go into a full dmt state.I think I made 550 ml instead of 400 ml calculations which should explain it.

----------------

I want to make this confusa recipe stronger. So I think I gonna vaporize the 400 ml I have left to 200 ml. I think that will make it more potent? I should take the 3 gram seeds again or more? I want a stronger more intense experience.

 

[Jagube]

3g Rue (in fact, even 2g) and 3g Acacia confusa rootbark (ACRB) sends me to the stars.

Glad it worked for you to an extent, although you used a lot of bark and still didn't quite get there and I'm not entirely sure if you felt the bark or just the seeds.

Possible reasons:
- Your Acacia material was weak
- Your preparation wasn't efficient
- Something not quite right with the Rue
- You're not particularly sensitive to these plants. Sensitivity can increase with use (reverse tolerance)

You consumed nearly 10g Rue. For me, that alone, even without the acacia, would have been too much. I'd still be seeing tracers and flickering lights 24 hours later.

And after 30 grams Acacia I'd be traumatized.

 

[Hara]

3g Rue (in fact, even 2g) and 3g Acacia confusa rootbark (ACRB) sends me to the stars.

Glad it worked for you to an extent, although you used a lot of bark and still didn't quite get there and I'm not entirely sure if you felt the bark or just the seeds.

Possible reasons:
- Your Acacia material was weak
- Your preparation wasn't efficient
- Something not quite right with the Rue
- You're not particularly sensitive to these plants. Sensitivity can increase with use (reverse tolerance)

You consumed nearly 10g Rue. For me, that alone, even without the acacia, would have been too much. I'd still be seeing tracers and flickering lights 24 hours later.

And after 30 grams Acacia I'd be traumatized.

mmmm, then I should be really unlucky that my acacia and chacruna and my rue material is weak xD When you cook your materials how much ml water is left after vaporizing? I think my water volume is to high making it to weak. I must admit that I only did 3x3 hours for the acacia brew. (does it matter instead of 2x4 hours?). Or maybe the nicotine reduced the effect?

Ow nice, never heared of reversed sensitivity before (cause it takes a lot of beers to get me drunk lol, which is kinda annoying )

Things I gonna try:

- vaporizing more water from the acacia
- maybe mixing the chacruna with the acasia brew?
- Jagube I am really wondering your amount of ml liquid left after brewing

what do you mean with "- Your preparation wasn't efficient" ? Can you be more specific? I just did cooking of the materials with vinegar 3x3 hours put it together.

My journey shall continue!

 

[tregar]

Hara, I've gone into answers for your post #1 here: Positronic Ayahuasca brewing - Ayahuasca - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[Jagube]

I must admit that I only did 3x3 hours for the acacia brew. (does it matter instead of 2x4 hours?).

3x3 is better than 2x4. Not just because it's a longer brewing time, but because more shorter boils is better than fewer longer ones.

- Jagube I am really wondering your amount of ml liquid left after brewing

I don't cook Rue or Caapi so much anymore, these days I do Rue alkaloid extractions, but when I used to brew the vine, I tended to make the volume no more than 20ml per serving (which could anywhere between 30g - 60g *dried* vine).

For Acacia, I make it roughly so that 5ml corresponds to 3g.

Also, I don't know how you boil it and reduce it, but here is how I do it:
- After each boil, I pour the liquid off, straining it through a cloth, then add new water and vinegar to the pot.
- After I'm finished with the boils, I discard the plant material and combine the liquids from each boil into one, and reduce that.

I don't reduce the liquid with the plant material inside. If you do that, your efficiency will drop dramatically, especially if you reduce it to smaller volumes, because some liquid gets trapped in the plant material and the more concentrated it is, the more goodies get trapped.

I add enough vinegar to bring the pH to around 4.5.

My journey shall continue!

That's the spirit!

 

[Hara]

Hara, I've gone into answers for your post #1 here: Positronic Ayahuasca brewing - Ayahuasca - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Thank you tregar. I couldnt PM you + could not post in your topic because I am not a "real" member. Weird cause I thought we were all one.

I read the whole post, I have a more clear understanding now of what the trip is. But more important how high the concentration is with Hawaiian psychotria. (I dont have those I think) I learned now how to calculate it so my next tries will be more on point.

Thx!

 

[Hara]

I must admit that I only did 3x3 hours for the acacia brew. (does it matter instead of 2x4 hours?).

3x3 is better than 2x4. Not just because it's a longer brewing time, but because more shorter boils is better than fewer longer ones.

- Jagube I am really wondering your amount of ml liquid left after brewing

I don't cook Rue or Caapi so much anymore, these days I do Rue alkaloid extractions, but when I used to brew the vine, I tended to make the volume no more than 20ml per serving (which could anywhere between 30g - 60g *dried* vine).

For Acacia, I make it roughly so that 5ml corresponds to 3g.

Also, I don't know how you boil it and reduce it, but here is how I do it:
- After each boil, I pour the liquid off, straining it through a cloth, then add new water and vinegar to the pot.
- After I'm finished with the boils, I discard the plant material and combine the liquids from each boil into one, and reduce that.

I don't reduce the liquid with the plant material inside. If you do that, your efficiency will drop dramatically, especially if you reduce it to smaller volumes, because some liquid gets trapped in the plant material and the more concentrated it is, the more goodies get trapped.

I add enough vinegar to bring the pH to around 4.5.

My journey shall continue!

That's the spirit!

Yes jagube that is precisly how I did the cooking.

I think I found the problem. I see now how concentrated the end product should be. Very concentrated. I usaually had an end product of 400 ml xD And I can speak from experience that yes, it drinks WAY worse and you vomit WAY sooner

------------------

So I now gonna vaporize both brews and use rue as moai (I only had 50 gram of chacruna and 90 gram of confusa, so I cant make it stronger in the same volume)

Do you really need at least a concentration of 15 - 30 grams in what you drink with chacruna? I only have brewed 50 gram chacruna leaves So that means I have to vaporize the brew till 1 gram per ml ? O.O

With the Confusa, I gonna vaporize the 400 ml to 200 ml. Then try again. if that doesnt work I vaporize it to 100 ml (or what is left over)

Just a side note: Did I wait long enough after eating the rue seeds (10min) before I drank the confusa? Or should I wait longer? I read other experiences on this forum they take it together. (my metabolism is extreme fast so I gonna try that)

-------------
What confused me when to take the rue and confusa is:

IF only the rue seeds worked, it means it only started to work after an hour. But if both work under normal circumstances it means I have to take them both at once (the 10 min wait didnt really work I think). Or should I take the confusa after the rue seeds start working? So kinda confused what timing I should take : /

EDIT:

After watching this vid (I get a sense he knows what he is talking about, I have seen more of his vids). I conclude the rue seeds FIRST need to work before you take the DMT. Which makes sense. In my case yesterday: I took the DMT after 10 min which was way to fast. So the DMT got broken down to nothing and 1.5 hour later the rue is working (which is what I felt and describe in earlyer posts in this topic). So I gonna wait 30 min - hour till I feel the seeds working before I drink the confusa. (maybe a bit earlier cause I wanna keep down the confusa more controlled and not in a total rue seed state ) Lets see how it goes. Gonna try it in few minutes! (its now 20:14)

 

[Jagube]

Rue taken as a tea comes on quicker than as a raw seeds. In the latter case, it takes more digestion to release the goodies.
When taken as a tea, the boiling has already done most of the digesting and they can be taken together, but it still depends on the individual's digestion and metabolism.
When taken as raw seeds, waiting a bit tends to work better.

For me, even a 40 minute wait has worked.

If you wait with the DMT until you feel the effects (drunkenness, lightheadedness, loss of balance, relaxation, mood lift, dreamy states, tracers), it may be too late to activate the DMT, because the gut MAOI effect comes first, and by the time you feel the psychoactive effects, it has already disassociated from the gut MAOI and entered your bloodstream.

However, ingested raw seeds are absorbed over a longer period, so when you feel the psychoactive effects, you may still have a good amount of gut MAOI.

If you're still uncertain about how long to wait, you can take let's say eat 2.5 grams of seeds first, wait 20 minutes, eat 2.5 grams more, wait another 10 minutes and drink your DMT-containing tea.

If that doesn't work, you may be among those few people who need a very high dose of harmalas (e.g. due to naturally high gut MAO levels). Another possibility is that your Acacia source material is weak.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Rue seed powder capsules last about an hour to an hour and a half after consumption in terms of MAO-A inhibition, so too does the freebased Rue and Harmala extract capsules, so ime there's isn't much of a difference in timing between the seed powder and the extract so digesting the Rue seed powder isn't much of an issue ime. Using both extracts and seed powder, waiting 30 minutes to an hour to take the Mimosa/Acacia works great. If i take the Mimosa/Acacia about an hour and a half to two hours after the Rue/extracts, things don't work as well, 30 minutes to an hour seems to be the best timing for me personally. Haven't worked with Rue tea yet though.

 

[Hara]

Rue taken as a tea comes on quicker than as a raw seeds. In the latter case, it takes more digestion to release the goodies.
When taken as a tea, the boiling has already done most of the digesting and they can be taken together, but it still depends on the individual's digestion and metabolism.
When taken as raw seeds, waiting a bit tends to work better.

For me, even a 40 minute wait has worked.

If you wait with the DMT until you feel the effects (drunkenness, lightheadedness, loss of balance, relaxation, mood lift, dreamy states, tracers), it may be too late to activate the DMT, because the gut MAOI effect comes first, and by the time you feel the psychoactive effects, it has already disassociated from the gut MAOI and entered your bloodstream.

However, ingested raw seeds are absorbed over a longer period, so when you feel the psychoactive effects, you may still have a good amount of gut MAOI.

If you're still uncertain about how long to wait, you can take let's say eat 2.5 grams of seeds first, wait 20 minutes, eat 2.5 grams more, wait another 10 minutes and drink your DMT-containing tea.

If that doesn't work, you may be among those few people who need a very high dose of harmalas (e.g. due to naturally high gut MAO levels). Another possibility is that your Acacia source material is weak.

I am waiting now for the effect to kick in. to be sure I took now another 2.5 gram. Will wait 20 min, take another 2.5 and then after 10 min take another 1 tbsp of 13 gram acasia. Should be bulletproof.

 

[Hara]

Rue seed powder capsules last about an hour to an hour and a half after consumption in terms of MAO-A inhibition, so too does the freebased Rue and Harmala extract capsules, so ime there's isn't much of a difference in timing between the seed powder and the extract so digesting the Rue seed powder isn't much of an issue ime. Using both extracts and seed powder, waiting 30 minutes to an hour to take the Mimosa/Acacia works great. If i take the Mimosa/Acacia about an hour and a half to two hours after the Rue/extracts, things don't work as well, 30 minutes to an hour seems to be the best timing for me personally. Haven't worked with Rue tea yet though.

That was my follow up question. Thx for already answering it I was wondering how the time that the confusa needs, compared to the working of rue. How best to overlap it. Coincidence doesn't exist so thank you

I will be careful not to take another 13 gram confusa any time soon then. and wait an hour or so. (dont wanna overdose on confusa)

 

[Hara]

And again nothing
Just the rue working a bit.

20:36 3 gram rue (raw seeds)
21:45 1 TBSP confusa 13 gram
22:07 2 gram rue (raw seeds)
23:27 2 gram rue (raw seeds)
23:40 2 TBSP Confusa 23 gram

Ok so I am totally lost, I tryed every single combination...

The seeds work, that I do know. But the chacruna and confusia dont I guess...

I gonna try 1 more thing:

- make rue thee and take that together with confusa or charcuna brew... After this I have to give up because of financial limitations It is odd that I am so unlucky with bad chacruna and confusa (I am doing the extrations how they should be done).

Just to be sure, when you extract chacruna or confusa and you see darker material laying on the bottom. You shouldnt use that right? Or is it other way around you use the bottom stuff?

 

[Jagube]

And again nothing

Sorry to hear that.

Just to be sure, when you extract chacruna or confusa and you see darker material laying on the bottom. You shouldnt use that right? Or is it other way around you use the bottom stuff?

All of it is good, and the solids are much more potent than the liquid. When concentrated to concentrations I work with, the solids at the bottom contain roughly half of the goodies, the liquid the other half.

For consistency, shake or stir so you get the liquid and the solids mixed together.