My plans to ingest oral dmt. (Safety reassurance)

[Asher7]

I wanted to try oral dmt with caapi vine and wanted to clarify some things before doing so.

I'm going to boil 65-70 grams of shredded caapi vine and ingest then encapsulate 40mg dmt freebase. I hear conflicting reports on the time to wait between ingesting the two. It seems 20-30 minutes apart is recommended. Is this correct?

I also am on some medications that I didn't see listed on the two lists. I take 10mg of Lisinopril for blood pressure each morning. My last dose was 14 hours ago which will probably be 17-18 hours ago once done brewing the caapi. I also took approx 50 mg of tianeptine approx 6 hours ago so it will be 9 or so hours once done brewing caapi.

I just wanted to run this by here since I trust your knowledge moreso than random google searches. I will keep researching while brewing in hopes of finding a trustworthy answer. In the event I don't find one, or nobody here is familiar with the two drugs I'll just bottle the caapi tea for another day. If anyone is currently taking or has taken these in the past I would greatly appreciate any info.

Also as a side note the last time I took caapi I made it to about the 1 hour mark before purging. Once I take the capsule of dmt what is the estimated time frame for it to get in my blood to avoid hurling it back up? I also took kratom a few hours ago, but I don't recall ever reading that being a problem with an maoi. Is that something to worry about?

 

[syberdelic]

I can't really speak to any of the drug interactions, but I would not recommend putting the freebase DMT in capsules. You're going to want to convert to salts.
My recommendation is to drop your DMT into a small glass of water and add lemon/lime juice or vinegar in small amounts while stirring until the DMT dissolves. It's not going to taste very great, but will be much more pleasant in your stomach than freebase DMT.

The one time I successfully consumed pharmahuasca, there was 20 minutes between harmine and DMT consumption. It was definitely more effective than combined consumption, but probably on the high end for wait time. I think the reason why there is so much conflicting information is that people have different MAO enzyme profiles.

 

[Asher7]

FB doesn't work for oral consumption? I thought it was naturally in that form in the bark, is that not correct?

Or are you saying it will cause more nausea, or upset stomach?

Well all I have is spectravite which has 90mg vit c, 200mcg folic acid and 15mg pantothenic acid and then 1mg folic acid tablets. No other acids. Oh well, guess it's just not meant to be tonight.

 

[rOm]

It is naturally in salts in the plants, and ingesting freebase will work, but your stomach will have to convert it to salts with endogenous acids and this can bring high nausea, or even vomiting.
Converting it to salt isn't much an effort and makes for a faster, more confortable ingestion.
Also, for future reference and if you like oral dmt, dmt fumarate ( or other salts ) are more stable than freebase, it won't oxydize as fast.
so what I would do is keep dmt fumarate or other salt form and only convert what I think I would be vaping ( freebase what will be used for changa i.e. ), but this is for ease and shelf life.

Now about harmalas and dmt, it's true that many poeple eat both at the same time with success, while some other find it makes sense to first ingest your harmalas for inhibition ( action takes about 20 to 30 minutes ) then dmt, or even Half harmalas dose, 20 minutes before and the other half with the dmt salts.

It's up top you at this point ( like dissolvethe dmt in lemon juice and add water then drink that with harmalas, or take harmalas before then edrink or encapulate them ... )
The protocol is personal, whatever floats your boat ( I end up encapsulating the dmt fumarate cause I find the taste hard enough, while harmalas are easy to eat as is ).

Pharmahuasca is very good method of ingestion and you keep track of your dosage more accurately than boiling off rue or caapi and admixture as, i.e harmalas in caapi varies greatly.
So you can start low and work your way up :thumb_up:

 

[syberdelic]

My preference for storage is freebase in airtight containers kept sub freezing. The oxidation rate is close to nil. Converting freebase to salt is quick and easy. Converting salt to freebase requires some effort and organic solvents.

And yes, vitamin C (ascorbic acid) will work great. Just do a test run first by dissolving 500mg in a shot glass of water. Fillers and stabilizers that don't dissolve should be filtered out. This should be plenty to salt a rational dose since the stochiometric ratio is near 1:1 for ascorbic acid and freebase DMT.

 

[Asher7]

Well I decided just to pass because I wasn't comfortable with the possible medicine complications. Being blood pressure medicine, if an maoi kicked the effects into overtime that sounds like disaster. I don't think I'll get enough time in the near future for an opening so I just disposed of the caapi tea. 65 grams down the drain is no big sacrifice.

I'm glad you guys clued me in on fb needing to be converted because I thought it was good as is. I think I'm going to take you up on your suggestion rOm on extracting the caapi so I can be precise on dosage. I'd been planning to do that just to see if I could so I'll try and pull that off before I take another wack at oral dmt.

I was reading another thread where someone said they had 2 year old fb that still worked so I'll probably just keep it as is and then switch it over for oral consumption since I'll be going the vape route more often. I figure it'll give me less chances of screwing something up.

Thanks for the feedback guys, even though this time was a dud atleast now I know how to go about it the correct way here in the future. It'll also give me more time to play around with the fb and get a better understanding of what I'm dealing with before getting locked in for a four hour ride with something I didn't wholly expect so, still a win.

 

[corpus callosum]

RIMAs with Lisinopril should not be problematic but tianeptine is not advisable; although its structure is close to that of the tricyclics its purported mode of action is less dependant on the monoamine neurotransmitters and yet the product info for it mentions MAOI use with it as being potentially hazardous and a contra-indication.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

FB doesn't work for oral consumption? I thought it was naturally in that form in the bark, is that not correct?

Or are you saying it will cause more nausea, or upset stomach?

Well all I have is spectravite which has 90mg vit c, 200mcg folic acid and 15mg pantothenic acid and then 1mg folic acid tablets. No other acids. Oh well, guess it's just not meant to be tonight.

Just some quick basics, I'm sure some of this will be review:

When the DMT is in the bark it is in its tannate or oxalate salt form.

When extracting DMT a base is used, for this example lets say NaOH, the purpose of this base is to convert the DMT tannate or oxalate salts into freebase DMT.

(The salts of DMT are water soluble, DMT freebase is not)

(The salts of DMT are not appropriate for smoking)


·Basics·
·A base readily donates a proton
·An acid readily accepts a proton
·When an acid and a base combine, they neutralize, forming a salt.

-eg

 

[downwardsfromzero]

This is incorrect:

·Basics·
·A base readily donates a proton
·An acid readily accepts a proton

Rather: a base accepts a proton, an acid donates a proton. There are some other definitions but they are not relevant here.

 

[Asher7]

Ok the picture in my head was that protons fall downwards (in relation to ph number), but the truth is they actually rise upwards? For the record, none of this or any info is review for me. I started chem in a community college but that quickly stopped due to life calling. I know some pretty cool tricks using chemistry, but usually I don't know the actual mechanics behind why it does what it's doing. So any and all info is encouraged. I learn easily if the way it's worded paints a picture in my head as well, like the proton falling down or rising up.

So in this freebase conversion, with a little water and lemon juice the crystal goes into an amou,t just large enough to dissolve it? And once it's dissolved the change has taken place, or do I need to let it sit for a specific amount of time?

 

[syberdelic]

You pretty much have it.
Drop fb in water. It doesn't dissolve.
Make water acidic and with some stirring it begins to dissolve.
Weak acids work slowly, so some times it will take a few minutes but if enough acid is added, it will dissolve the fb entirely. Depending on purity, you may notice a small amount of oil that persists.
Once solution becomes clear or just light colored rather than cloudy, then it is ready to drink. If you're using lemon juice or vinegar, adding too much won't really change the chemistry. Add an extra bit of lemon juice and some sugar and you'll have some mighty funky lemonade.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

This is incorrect:

·Basics·
·A base readily donates a proton
·An acid readily accepts a proton

Rather: a base accepts a proton, an acid donates a proton. There are some other definitions but they are not relevant here.

Mea culpa, I got that mixed up...I can't believe that either as I have had to write this information many many times this month...thanks for catching that.

This is from an older thread, but has correctly information...

A conjugate acid is a base that has had a hydrogen ion connected to it, a base that has become protonated.

When forming the fumarate salt of DMT, the DMT-freebase is the base that is receiving a proton from the fumaric acid, the fumaric acid and DMT base react and neutralize, forming the fumarate salt of DMT, and the conjugate base is what's left of the fumaric acid acid after it has protonated the DMT.

·An acid readily gives up a proton (H+)
·A base readily accepts a proton

The conjugate acid is the protonated base, and the conjugate base is what's left of the acid after its donated it's hydrogen ion (proton)

-eg

Dmt fumerate clarification - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Ok the picture in my head was that protons fall downwards (in relation to ph number), but the truth is they actually rise upwards? For the record, none of this or any info is review for me. I started chem in a community college but that quickly stopped due to life calling. I know some pretty cool tricks using chemistry, but usually I don't know the actual mechanics behind why it does what it's doing. So any and all info is encouraged. I learn easily if the way it's worded paints a picture in my head as well, like the proton falling down or rising up.

So in this freebase conversion, with a little water and lemon juice the crystal goes into an amou,t just large enough to dissolve it? And once it's dissolved the change has taken place, or do I need to let it sit for a specific amount of time?

Hmmm...

Again, sorry if this is review.

·7 is neutral, 14 is basic, 0 is acidic...

·The acidic side if the scale readily donates a proton (hydrogen ion), the basic side readily accepts a hydrogen ion (proton).

·A "free-base" is the deprotonated form of an amine. "Free" indicating it's free of hydrogen ions, and "base" indicating that it is basic.

·A "conjugate acid" is a compound formed by the reception of a proton.

A solution which is strongly acidic May posses up to 100,000,000,000,000 times more hydrogen ions than a strongly basic solution, while a strongly basic solution may possess 100,000,000,000,000 Times as many hydroxide ions than a strongly acidic solution, as is explained below:

What does it mean for a solution to be acidic or basic (alkaline)?
It all has to do with hydrogen ions (abbreviated with the chemical symbol H+). In water (H2O), a small number of the molecules dissociate (split up). Some of the water molecules lose a hydrogen and become hydroxide ions (OH−). The "lost" hydrogen ions join up with water molecules to form hydronium ions (H3O+). For simplicity, hydronium ions are referred to as hydrogen ions H+. In pure water, there are an equal number of hydrogen ions and hydroxide ions. The solution is neither acidic or basic.

An acid is a substance that donates hydrogen ions. Because of this, when an acid is dissolved in water, the balance between hydrogen ions and hydroxide ions is shifted. Now there are more hydrogen ions than hydroxide ions in the solution. This kind of solution is acidic.

A base is a substance that accepts hydrogen ions. When a base is dissolved in water, the balance between hydrogen ions and hydroxide ions shifts the opposite way. Because the base "soaks up" hydrogen ions, the result is a solution with more hydroxide ions than hydrogen ions. This kind of solution is alkaline.

Acidity and alkalinity are measured with a logarithmic scale called pH. Here is why: a strongly acidic solution can have one hundred million million, or one hundred trillion (100,000,000,000,000) times more hydrogen ions than a strongly basic solution! The flip side, of course, is that a strongly basic solution can have 100,000,000,000,000 times more hydroxide ions than a strongly acidic solution. Moreover, the hydrogen ion and hydroxide ion concentrations in everyday solutions can vary over that entire range.

In order to deal with these large numbers more easily, scientists use a logarithmic scale, the pH scale. Each one-unit change in the pH scale corresponds to a ten-fold change in hydrogen ion concentration. The pH scale is theoretically open-ended but most pH values are in the range from 0 to 14. It's a lot easier to use a logarithmic scale instead of always having to write down all those zeros! By the way, notice how one hundred million million is a one with fourteen zeros after it? It is not coincidence, it is logarithms!

To be more precise, pH is the negative logarithm of the hydrogen ion concentration:

pH = −log [H+]
The square brackets around the H+ automatically mean "concentration" to a chemist. What the equation means is just what we said before: for each 1-unit change in pH, the hydrogen ion concentration changes ten-fold. Pure water has a neutral pH of 7. pH values lower than 7 are acidic, and pH values higher than 7 are alkaline (basic). Table 1 has examples of substances with different pH values (Decelles, 2002; Environment Canada, 2002; EPA, date unknown)

The pH Scale

View the pH scale and learn about acids, bases, including examples and testing materials.

www.sciencebuddies.org

When you react an acid and a base, the deprotonated base accepts a hydrogen ion from the acid, which causes a neutralization of acidic or basic properties with the formation of a salt. The acid used determines the salt form, so HCL gives the hydrochloride, H2S04 gives the sulfate, acetic acid gives the acetate, and so on...

Acid–Base Reactions: Neutralization Reactions
When a strong acid and a strong base solution are mixed, a neutralization reaction occurs, and the products do not have characteristics of either acids or bases. Instead, a neutral salt and water are formed. Look at the reaction below:
HCl(aq) + NaOH(aq)H2O(l) + NaCl(aq)
The anion from the acid (Cl–) reacts with the cation from the base (Na+) to give a salt, and a salt is defined as any compound formed whose anion came from an acid and whose cation came from a base.
When a strong acid and a weak base are mixed, the resulting salt will be acidic; likewise, if a strong base and a weak acid are mixed, the resulting salt will be basic. If on the SAT II Chemistry test you are asked to determine if a salt formed in a particular reaction is neutral, acidic, or basic, first ask yourself, Which acid reacted with which base to form this salt? Next ask yourself, Was the acid strong or weak? and then, Was the base strong or weak? Consider K2CO3. K2CO3 is formed when the base, potassium hydroxide (which is strong since potassium is a 1A metal), reacts with the acid, H2CO3 (which is weak since it isn’t one of our six strong acids). Since this is a combination of a strong base and a weak acid, the salt formed will be basic.

SparkNotes: Today's Most Popular Study Guides

SparkNotes are the most helpful study guides around to literature, math, science, and more. Find sample tests, essay help, and translations of Shakespeare.

www.sparknotes.com

-eg

 

[Asher7]

That's perfect. See, in dealing with aquariums I understand ph, and what stabilizes ph and things in that nature but it was as deep as, need more acidic water? Add acid. Need more alkaline water? Add something alkaline. The explainations above open a window into the mechanics of what is actually happening in that clear water. So that's perfect, and I can actually understand it, which is surprising.

I had made a post last night but deleted it because it wasn't necessary in the long run but in reading the I love Aya thread it was mentioned nuts are an "offender" with maois. The kick is, I skipped medication, food etc. and while things were brewing I ate a handful of cashews to cancel out the edge of hunger being a factor. So I essentially wasted another 65 grams of caapi. I've come to the conclusion that when these repeat, not failures but inabilities to accomplish my goal come up in this way that it's probably for a reason. I should have known nuts weren't ok. I have no recollection of ever reading them being on the list. But I should have known, period.

I think it's time I just stop everything and hit the drawing board. Step away from the table and read. In these few attempts, everyone failed because I didnt know what I should have and I just made what's necessary 10 times harder, wasteful and frustrating for only one reason and that's my ignorance.

So it's time to put down the lab coat and pick up the reading glasses after a little while away from all things concerning the subject. I've waited this long, what's a few more months going to hurt. Maybe it's never meant to be, maybe it is and my head has a few more exercises needed to get right. Maybe it is meant to be and I just screwed up, who knows. Whatever the case, I'm going to remove it all from my current mindframe and whenever the itch hits, attempt again with a fresh set of eyes.

In the meantime, I'm going to bounce on over to the cacti forum and see if I can find a tek that uses fresh cacti instead of dried. I know the cacti loves me so I'll just revisit that one for awhile. God knows I could use a little sunshine right about now. Thanks for the info guys, never hesitate to school me if you see a thread of mine with a question. Even if it doesn't get used for the specific application being discussed, I'm sure it will pop up somewhere down the line in some form or another.

Edit** I'm also reading that kratom is not to be mixed with caapi. The question is how long to quit kratom before caapi ingestion. So far I have 24 hours, or two weeks. Any ideas?

 

[Asher7]

Ok well here goes. Nothing ingested but some coffee earlier. So, 65 grams caapi boiled down 3 times and 50mgs fb soaked in lemon juice cut with water. I can't help but think I'm going to self inflict the panic attack of all panic attacks but only one way to know.

One cool thing, when I froze the lemon juice to save it when it thawed it looked like this. Pretty cool.

 

[TGO]

Good luck and godspeed with your experience! Just a quick note: Oral DMT can be quite tricky and can range from completely underwhelming to "holy ____!!!" for a variety of reasons. I usually have some changa loaded up nearby just in case if I don't go as far as I would like. Taking even a small hit of DMT while fully inhibited by caapi or rue can send you pretty deep. It all depends on what you are trying to do though!

Peace and good vibes to you!

 

[pitubo]

One bit of advice: it doesn't hurt to ingest your brew in two or three portions, spaced apart by an hour each. If an hour after the first or second portion you are too overwhelmed already, you can stay where you're at. Dosing in this fashion also spreads out the peak, so that the experience has a little less the feel of a rollercoaster.

Good luck and enjoy!

 

[Asher7]

Another dud, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. It all seems like something that would be rather hard to screw up. I guess it's just not time.

 

[TGO]

Misfires can have many culprits but, generally speaking, it is due to not being fully inhibited by the caapi/rue. Try upping your dose of caapi or getting some Syrian Rue to experiment with. Another option would be to extract the harmala alkaloids to get a more precise dosage. As I said in my last post, dosing orally can be a bit tricky and generally takes some patience, practice, and a handful of failed attempts to get where you want to be. Don't give up!

 

[syberdelic]

One suggestion that I'd make since you are using caapi is to forget about the DMT until you are certain about the potency of your caapi and it's effectiveness on your body. Aim for a dose that makes you feel like you've had a beer or two with some very mild visual distortions. You will most likely feel a bit of nausea. You will know when you've found the right amount as it will have a definite intoxicating effect, but still pretty mild.

Once you find this point, you can add in the DMT with a fair amount of certainty that it will not fizzle out on you.