Near miss: pilot on after effects of magic mushrooms

[The Traveler]

He said he took mushrooms two days before the flight but, according to his attorneys, Emerson has hallucinogen persisting perception disorder, which made the effects of the psychedelic drug last for days instead of hours

Flight deck audio reveals details on ex-Alaska Airlines pilot who tried to shut plane's engines off mid-flight

Joseph Emerson pleaded guilty to a federal charge of interfering with a flight crew and pleaded no contest to state charges of endangering an aircraft and 83 counts of endangering another person.

www.cbsnews.com

Debate:

It is entirely appropriate that he has lost his flight licenses; aviation safety requires absolute zero tolerance for actions that jeopardize an aircraft.

At the same time, it is important to acknowledge that he was not in a rational state of mind when he attempted to interfere with the operation of the aircraft. Upon realizing the severity of his behavior, he immediately requested that the crew restrain him to prevent any further risk. He subsequently accepted full responsibility, both publicly and in court, without attempting to justify or minimize his actions.

While these factors do not excuse what occurred, they do indicate that he recognizes the seriousness of the incident and has demonstrated accountability. Beginning again from the ground up will undoubtedly be challenging for him, but it remains the only acceptable path-far preferable to allowing him access to a flight deck in the future.

Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[TheGreenPhantom]

For the guilty plea, he was sentenced to time served, having spent 46 days in jail, and three years of supervised release. The other charges came with a sentence of five years of probation and time served.

He's lucky.

I've heard of "hallucinogen persisting perception disorder" before. A colleague of mine told me about her son's friend, who – after dropping LSD – was still tripping off the walls 4 days later and was hospitalized... on two occasions.

 

[The Traveler]

I've heard of "hallucinogen persisting perception disorder" before. A colleague of mine told me about her son's friend, who – after dropping LSD – was still tripping off the walls 4 days later and was hospitalized... on two occasions.

I've seen this in real life too.

Where a person who was given a substance did not initially react to that substance at all, to only suddenly totally get into a trip the day after taking it, and then having a journey that would last for a much longer period of time than what other people would normally have.

"hallucinogen persisting perception disorder" is seemingly quite real.

Might this be due to genetics, for example CYP450?


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[blig-blug]

More than it "lasting for days", this case seems to be that a wave of effects came days later, as seems to be often the case with HPPD ("latent period"). That also explains why no one saw any problem or difference in his behavior up until that point.

Where a person who was given a substance did not initially react to that substance at all, to only suddenly totally get into a trip the day after taking it, and then having a journey that would last for a much longer period of time than what other people would normally have.

AFAIK that's not what is called HPPD, and does sound more as some kind of metabolic issue, as you say.

Not that it's known, but to me HPPD seems likely to be a neurological issue combined with a psychological one. The neurological may bring the actual effects, and the psychological color them as disturbing, thus making it a disorder. Most hypotheses seem to be neurological: Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder: Etiology, Clinical Features, and Therapeutic Perspectives - PMC

 

[blig-blug]

and the psychological color them as disturbing, thus making it a disorder

I mention this because I know of a person who often experiences visual psychedelic flashbacks, and they experience them as a positive event that reminds them of the lessons learned during their trips. In this case, it could only qualify as a disorder if it were interfering with a job (such as piloting a plane!) or otherwise putting the person. their livelihood, or other people at danger.

 

[TransistorBass]

On a side note, things like this do not help with legalisation. it only gives them something to fan their prohibition / puritanical flames with.

 

[Varallo]

It is incredibly sad for him. To me, it also illustrates why psychedelics are not necessarily a first line tool for dealing with grief, trauma, or depression. The article does not make it entirely clear whether he failed to have a trip at the time and experienced it later, but what stands out is that his perception of reality itself appears to been altered.

That makes the description given by his lawyer seem somewhat inaccurate. What it sounds like is not HPPD in the usual sense, but rather a disruption in his sense of what is real and what is not, brought on by the mushrooms.

I know HPPD mostly as visual noise or tinnitus like disturbances, and I have some mild symptoms of that myself without it causing much trouble, let alone have any trouble with reality. What is described in the article seems much more severe.

I've seen this in real life too.

Where a person who was given a substance did not initially react to that substance at all, to only suddenly totally get into a trip the day after taking it, and then having a journey that would last for a much longer period of time than what other people would normally have.

Very interesting, did that person ever try again? I am curious what mechanisms could explain something like that. You would expect a fairly straightforward dose response pattern, and in controlled studies with LSD I’ve never read about delayed effects of that kind.

Anyway HPPD is pretty common but doesn’t really affect people all that often and is very much not something that is influencing the ability to see reality so he might have experienced something similar to psychosis but his lawyer thought that it be opportune to go for the lesser known HPPD.

 

[blig-blug]

let alone have any trouble with reality

In the paper I linked above, they call HPPD II the kind that shows more extreme effects of detachment from reality:

Conversely, the onset of HPPD II might be unexpected and abruptly detonate with bursting “auras”, deep feelings of self-detachment, acute depersonalization-derealization

That's why I speculate that those cases may be linked to a particularly difficult or disturbing experience, where the HPPD symptoms trigger a PTSD flashback.

Still, delusions don't seem to be a feature of HPPD in any case, so that still doesn't match.

I would be wary of deducing anything from a legal case, as the lawyers' work is to get the best result for their client, not to advance science. Even more so in an adversarial system like that in the US.

 

[Varallo]

In the paper I linked above, they call HPPD II the kind that shows more extreme effects of detachment from reality:



That's why I speculate that those cases may be linked to a particularly difficult or disturbing experience, where the HPPD symptoms trigger a PTSD flashback.

Still, delusions don't seem to be a feature of HPPD in any case, so that still doesn't match.

I would be wary of deducing anything from a legal case, as the lawyers' work is to get the best result for their client, not to advance science. Even more so in an adversarial system like that in the US.

I must admit I had not actually read the paper yet, except for the first paragraph of the introduction, and my understanding of HPPD was based mainly on what I have read here and on other forums rather than on scientific definitions.

What’s interesting is that what they describe as HPPD1 is something I would not have thought to be HPPD, and I am not sure whether these phenomena truly belong in the one HPPD category. My personal speculation, is that flashbacks may arise as a kind of re experiencing that can resemble the recurrence of traumatic memories, whereas the static visual noise seems to originate from a different mechanism altogether. I do not know whether that is accurate, but it is how I currently think about it.

Beyond that, it is an interesting paper, because you can see that over the last ten years there has been some research into similar effects. But what has always fascinated me is that in studies from the 1970s, these kinds of effects were not really observed. That could, of course, have something to do with sample size, but it could also be that things were underreported because the lack of an word it just didn’t exist.

 

[blig-blug]

My personal speculation, is that flashbacks may arise as a kind of re experiencing that can resemble the recurrence of traumatic memories, whereas the static visual noise seems to originate from a different mechanism altogether

I agree with this. Part of the reason is that I've had visual snow, moving colors and shapes with my eyes closed, and faint patterns forming in grass, walls, etc. before ever trying psychedelics. After psychedelics they haven't changed (I think), but I notice and appreciate them more. I think this is something very difficult to study, due to our inherent tendency to think our sensory and mental experience is the "normal" human one. So at a personal level we can only know that something is unusual when comparing it to what other people report. And as you say, language can really influence that, and make some things hard to report, or create misunderstandings.

 

[The Traveler]

Very interesting, did that person ever try again? I am curious what mechanisms could explain something like that. You would expect a fairly straightforward dose response pattern, and in controlled studies with LSD I’ve never read about delayed effects of that kind.

That person did and with the exact same effects, the substance in question was mescaline, probably in the 200mg range though I'm not 100% sure about that dose anymore.

Thinking about it further, LSD and mushrooms seemed to behave normally in come-up and duration for that person, while vaped DMT had the usual quick onset and DMT visions, however without any of the usual anxiety and that person stayed extremely clear headed during the experience, except for the DMT visions the effects might just as well be the same for them as having drank a glass of water.

So for the anxiety part I wonder if this person might have a different response on the 5-HT-2A sub-receptor compared to normal people, they also did not seem to have the usual anxiety with LSD and mushrooms now that I think of it.

As for the mescaline and the extreme long time for the come-up: they took the mescaline orally in gelatin capsules (so not enteric coated capsules), this might point to an unusual difference in absorption in their digestive tract, they ate the same meals as me at the same time and I certainly did have normal effects from that same batch of mescaline. The extended duration of the mescaline for them might point to a slower breakdown in the blood by CYP450, something that can likely be genetic.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Voidmatrix]

Speaking personally.

There are times after a long day at the center, where I haven't taken any medicine, and on the drive home or some time after leaving the center, feel an "activation" that is much like a come-up or a sudden onset from having taken a substance. My boss experiences this too from time to time, and we both sometimes get activated in the space while guiding/sitting/tending.

Then there are times, where things just seem more psychedelic in one instance. It'll be rapid. So I often consider HPPD in one form or another for myself. However, there could be other molecular and other shenanigans going on behind the scenes since I am a frequent user.

One love

 

[Transform]

How sad. What sounds to me very much like poor management of post-trip derealization has resulted in what Shulgin memorably refered to as "the tragic ruination of a life".

he had been grieving the death of his best friend and turned first to alcohol to help before trying the psilocybin mushrooms for the first time.

The booze, of course, gets off scot free… what if it contributed* to the persisting effects of the psilocybin? Alcohol isn't exactly noted for its mentally balancing effect, and can impair performance for several days after use.

This is a guy who should have been on sick leave in the first place, is the impression I'm getting.

*one plausible mechanism for this could be the formation of endogenous isoquinolines (salsolinol) in the CNS, for example.

 

[The Traveler]

Beyond that, it is an interesting paper, because you can see that over the last ten years there has been some research into similar effects. But what has always fascinated me is that in studies from the 1970s, these kinds of effects were not really observed. That could, of course, have something to do with sample size, but it could also be that things were underreported because the lack of an word it just didn’t exist.

Beside changes in sample size, this might point to changes in the environment and social habits, like differences in food intake, processing of food, changes in environmental law drastically lowering certain forms of pollution, like how acid rain is now virtually gone in many parts of the worlds due to widely implemented cross country regulations, and changes in physical and mental activities plus daily routines like sleep.

Also sample size selection criteria might be wildly different these days than back in the day. I could easily imagine for example, that back in the day they might only have sampled from a group of hippies with a proven track record of substance use to make it more easy to get their research approved and funded.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Varallo]

That person did and with the exact same effects, the substance in question was mescaline, probably in the 200mg range though I'm not 100% sure about that dose anymore.

Thinking about it further, LSD and mushrooms seemed to behave normally in come-up and duration for that person, while vaped DMT had the usual quick onset and DMT visions, however without any of the usual anxiety and that person stayed extremely clear headed during the experience, except for the DMT visions the effects might just as well be the same for them as having drank a glass of water.

So for the anxiety part I wonder if this person might have a different response on the 5-HT-2A sub-receptor compared to normal people, they also did not seem to have the usual anxiety with LSD and mushrooms now that I think of it.

As for the mescaline and the extreme long time for the come-up: they took the mescaline orally in gelatin capsules (so not enteric coated capsules), this might point to an unusual difference in absorption in their digestive tract, they ate the same meals as me at the same time and I certainly did have normal effects from that same batch of mescaline. The extended duration of the mescaline for them might point to a slower breakdown in the blood by CYP450, something that can likely be genetic.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Fascinating, It almost makes you think there might be some different kind of processing in there brain, or that certain structures are different. Quite remarkable.

Beside changes in sample size, this might point to changes in the environment and social habits, like differences in food intake, processing of food, changes in environmental law drastically lowering certain forms of pollution, like how acid rain is now virtually gone in many parts of the worlds due to widely implemented cross country regulations, and changes in physical and mental activities plus daily routines like sleep.

Also sample size selection criteria might be wildly different these days than back in the day. I could easily imagine for example, that back in the day they might only have sampled from a group of hippies with a proven track record of substance use to make it more easy to get their research approved and funded.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

As a system thinker this is of course very interesting. I do not know whether these would ever count as confounding factors, but it is certainly intriguing to consider that such elements might have influenced the outcome. I looked into it again. There are studies that do mention temporary reliving effects, but only as something extremely rare, almost like a footnote. That could be seen as something comparable to what we now have a word for.

Most studies where done for researching potential beneficial outcomes for anxiety neuroses but also alcoholism and depression. Powick hospital and the Spring grove experiments are examples.

How sad. What sounds to me very much like poor management of post-trip derealization has resulted in what Shulgin memorably refered to as "the tragic ruination of a life".
The booze, of course, gets off scot free… what if it contributed* to the persisting effects of the psilocybin? Alcohol isn't exactly noted for its mentally balancing effect, and can impair performance for several days after use.

This is a guy who should have been on sick leave in the first place, is the impression I'm getting.

*one plausible mechanism for this could be the formation of endogenous isoquinolines (salsolinol) in the CNS, for example.

You are absolutely right. It is incredibly sad, and I completely agree. This person went through what I believe was a very temporary mental health crisis. He should have been on sick leave, not convicted.

 

[PedroSanchez]

this is why you don't use mushrooms to run from your problems.
now the media have an extremely rare chance event to pretend is common place and scare people. i'm not even sure i believe it but it must be true if it's in the media, right?

 

[doubledog]

Perfect example how responsible person should act after such event. Great guy, I really like him, very responsible reaction from his side. Hats off.