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No MAOI: Complexing DMT freebase for sublingual administration

Migrated topic.
Certainly MAOI could be a problem. But I think it comes down to speed in this case. If the speed of absorption is significantly increased, you could get an experience somewhat similar to smoking dmt. That works, so why not a fast absorption through the mouth?

In any case, I know rectal dmt works without a maoi. Granted, the experience is relatively short, but definitely noticeable.

I say go for it.
 
This sounds like it would work. If DMT is active nasally, rectally and vaped without an maoi then it should be active through this route without an maoi. Even if the MAOI's tried to destroy the spice, wouldnt it have to pull the dmt out of the complex before it could do that?
 
I very recently tried sublingually 100mg dmt dissolved in 0.5ml of DMSO...this ought to easily get dmt to the bloodstream pretty easily and fast. Well, other than the burning mouth the experience lasted ~15 min, was very weak and in par with 10mg or less smoked spice. Few visuals were present but other than that, meh.

It appears that the sublingual dmt route is generally not that great if not the worst.
 
I'm reviving this thread as I actually have some HPBCD. If the complex works and is only a bit more effective than insufflating DMT, that is noteworthy.

As far as I know complexing with this stuff is very simple, but I want to clarify a couple of things first:

1: I can't get ethanol here and I'm not building a still just for this. Do anyone know if isopropyl alcohol will compete with DMT and form an inclusion complex of it's own? I don't want to be ingesting iso.

2: I'm not a chemist so this is my intuition: I need equal molecular quantity of both compounds in solution to be complexed without unnecessary excess of either. One should keep the concentration of DMT as high as possible to avoid having to put exess material in your mouth (or nose, if you plan to insufflate). The molecular weight of DMT is 188.269 g/mol and HPBCD is 1134.984 g/mol. So by weight I need to combine 1 part DMT to 6 times HPBCD, correct?

3: Is there any point swallowing any of the complex to test that too ? Or would the HPBCD release the molecule too early in the gut, either by breaking down or other means, leaving the DMT open to breakdown by MAO, defeating the purpose of the experiment ?
 
Pffft I'm the guinea pig I guess:

10mg Freebase DMT
60MG HPBCD
5ML Isopropanol

- DMT dissolves right away, HPBCD very little or not at all, solution is cloudy.

5Ml water

- HPBCD dissolves, solution stirred and completely clears. Stirred for a few minutes and then poured onto flat glass dish. Fanned to evaporate.

An amorphous clear solid remains. It's very brittle and shatters everywhere, so I lose some product.

A small sample of this dissolves readily in water, at a faster rate than freebase DMT would, so I assume the complex worked ? It dissolves readily in the mouth too.

It produced a shift that I wouldn't have expected, but I didn't see any pupil dilation in a mirror, or discernible visuals, just that strange tryptamine feeling. I can't say how much I actually got because it's so brittle, it shatters and scatters quite a bit. I guess... do more next time... ?

The molecular weight of HPBCD is pretty high cpmpared to DMT so the volume needed for ingestion is more than fumarates. It still tingles but not as bad as freebase DMT. It's like a sweetened version, less bitter.
 
I'm eager to see your results on higher doses. I do'nt have HPBCD here, right now to try out guinea pig with you Orion, but I would like to try out complexion too.

Please tell us how it goes, even if it's too mild or failure. thanks for reviving it !
 
There are different ways it could be used. As the dose increases, the total weight of material starts to become a problem. If you plan to take this stuff sublingually or nasally you might have a mixed opinion. On one hand it it does not burn as much, but on the other hand there is a lot more material to work with. Plugging it might be a better idea.

Another possibility is that it could bypass MAO if you take it orally, negating the need for MAOIs. I don't know for sure if this will work. Complexing is extremely easy. Extracting harmalas is easy... but curiosity has the better of me in this case.

I'm on the last minutes of another sublingual test as before, this time I tripled the dose. Effects were quite similar, it's still a low dose of DMT. My mouth is like a water balloon with all this saliva. It really is quite a lot of material to work with if taken this route. Probably not the best ROA for this. Even if it does increase absorption, the amount of material needed is too much to be practical in my opinion.

I'd say the only practical use of this is eating a full dose as if it was pharmahuasca and seeing if that works. It would be nice to feel oral DMT with no harmala alkaloids, just for comparison.
 

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Bumping with some information and some questions.

It appears a 1:1 ratio is your best bet, a 1:2, or a 2:1, (guest being the former, host being the latter). I wouldn't venture above that or else it will actually decrease bioavailability. So every milligram of DMT (guest), add a milligram of HPBCD (host). Orion did a 1:6, which seems too high, and I don't think Nature Boy specified his ratio. (This information I posted seems wrong, I think it's a bit more complicated than this, I think calculations must be done to find the perfect ratio).

There are a few methods to form an inclusion complex, I don't want to add them to this post because it will make it too bulky, but here's a link. Inclusion complex formation of cyclodextrin with its guest and their applications

What form of DMT do you think is best? Freebase, fumarate, oxidate, HCL? Does it even matter? I'm clueless here.

HPBCD is actually quite easy to obtain now. It seems like that wasn't the case years ago but now it is.

Give me some time, like a lot of time, and I will eventually get to this and report back.
 
I think freebase would be better as the inner part of HPBCD is lipophylic.

We think we've found that drying at a low temp is better for Salvinorin A.

Everclear seems to work well since both freebase drugs and HPBCD will be in solution. One question we have not answered is how long to mix the system to achieve good molecular dispersion (some papers mix for 12 hours which seems like overkill)

As for the ratio, it's a balance. The more HPBC the easier it should be for the complex to form, but the more bulky the final product will be.

Interesting applications for a complexed ROI are eyedrops, nebulizing, and orally active Salvia (or orally active DMT without MAOI inhibitors). It seems other drugs have achieved good delivery via these routes after completxarion. There is also the eye-brain-blood barrier which makes eyedrops particularly interesting (theoretically speaking, I'm not advocating to simply go try this without tons of work/research/tests).

Are you aware of the Salvia complexatiom thread? If no, I'll throw it up here.
 
One question we have not answered is how long to mix the system to achieve good molecular dispersion (some papers mix for 12 hours which seems like overkill)
Click to expand...

Does it matter if it's left in too long? Are there any papers complexing similar molecules to DMT? I couldn't find any. Should I be searching for alkaloids or structurally similar chemicals?

I had no idea that the thread existed, but I found it and will be looking through it. I'll link it here in case anyone else wants to read up on it. Salvinorin Cyclodextrin Complexation for Sublingual Administration - Salvia Divinorum - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

We're going off molecular weight when trying to find the ratio, right? After glancing at a few papers, when the molecular weight of the chemical is around ~180, I noticed they used a 1:1. I know DMT's molecular weight is around 180 as well, so maybe the ratio for DMT could be 1:1.
 
Yeah, probably nothing bad will happen if left in too long. This is, if you want the full 12 hours of dispersion you need a magnetic stirrer and not everyone has one.

As for the ratio, I remember a paper (or patent?) that stated that higher HPBCD ratio resulted in a stronger complexation. I'll look for it.

Thanks for posting the link to the Salvia complexation thread.
 
The question of complexing remains untested and unproven.

In mimosa hostilis, dmt exists in an already complexed form known as Juremamamine - A molecule that looks like dmt with some bits added on.

Cold water extraction of mimosa hostilis yields 'vinho de jurema' details of which can be found in other posts on the nexus.

Now, 25g of m.hostilis root appears to be required for good effect, which seems way too much.

5 grams of wood and 1g of syrian rue as maoi should have you on a good +2 trip

This could be due to the fact that the process is simply inefficient and doesn't extract all the actives.


In any case I'm still very interested in this and believe that freebase dmt MUST be able to be complexed in a fashion that renders it orally active without assistance of an MAOI due to the vinho de jurema situation- unless there are hidden beta carbolines and maois in hostilis that are responsible for this effect.
 
In mimosa hostilis, dmt exists in an already completed form known as Juremamamine - A molecule that looks like dmt with some bits added on.
Click to expand...

Did you mean "complexed" and not "completed"?

Regarding Yuremamine it indeed has DMT hidden in its structure, but it is nearly impossible that it will release this as a form of free molecule while being metabolized.

A lot of other natural substances also include DMT in their structure, but this is simply due to their behaviour of being built up with tryptophane as a building block and the 2 methyl-groups just "make it look like DMT", as they are originally just carbons to elongate the structure from the amine, which acts like an anchor to build bigger structures. But in fact I really dont think that long carbon chains would ever be cleaved down to a methyl group on the N and so DMT would not be released when eating those things.
Sadly I do not have a good example, but other molecules that also "contain" DMT in their structure dont make you high on DMT either, if you eat them.

Regarding 25 g of Mimosa bark to grant you DMT-ish effects compared to 5 g + syrian rue this makes sense, as you just need a multifold higher amount of pure DMT to still make it active as you simply overshoot all your enzymes that break it down. So when not eating MAOI a very high amount of Freebase DMT still makes sense to produce effects, but again it must be very high.

On the other hand using Cyclodextrin to make DMT orally active:

I did not read much about this method, but does it really work or is it just hypothetical?

Because if you create the Cyclodextrin-DMT-complex this indeed enlarges bioactivity, which is measured as the amount of drug that finally enters the blood plasma as part of its metabolism.
And if Cyclodextrin simply helps DMT to pass the first few barriers, then there will still be MAO-Enzymes all over the body to readily catch it as soon as Cyclodextrin releases DMT. If it would want to induce an effect, DMT has to leave the complexation and then it is vulnerable to the enzymes just like before, so from my limited knowledge of Cyclodextrin I would mostly tend to say it wont help making it orally active in "normal" doses ultimately. Maybe the threshold level still sinks, as Cyclodextrin may protect DMT on the beginning of its travel through the body, nevertheless :?

Also the interesting component in Black Pepper (Piper nigrum) = Piperin increases bioactivity, even though not as high as Cyclodextrin. Maybe combine this and even more bioactivity-enhancing agents and a possible effect will increase to a noteworthy level.
 
Yes i meant complexed:) fixed!

Ok. So cyclodextrin simply aids initial absorption and possibly lowers the threshold for +1 experience. Not revolutionary or worth the effort.

I've seen someone have a very intense experience from consuming 200mg of liquid acacia alkaloids on an empty stomach in a gel cap, 45 minute peak 15 minutes after consumption followed by 1 hour offset and long afterglow. If maoi were involved it may well have been a 6 hour, way too intense, trip.

Perhaps these liquid alkaloids can be combined with crystal dmt to create an entourage effect and keep the party going somehow. Only one way to find out!

What do you mean by bioactivity exactly?
 
In your big DMT analysis you say no Juremamamine detected for your various spices, that it only exists in cold water process extracts- so heat is decarboxylating the Juremamamine into dmt in a standard a/b tek? Is it possible that some of these other dmt 'containing complexes could be decarboxylated in the same fashion?
 
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