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No One Insufflates DMT?

Migrated topic.
narmz said:
Don't some tribes use like a blow-dart style tube to rocket the dmt-containing material into the nose? Maybe you could make some sort of contraption like that, and have a friend help ya out.
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They use virola calophylla resin for that. There's something in the resin that makes the DMT absorb really easily without much pain. SWIM uses virola calophylla resin sublingually with a little calcium hydroxide (6% by weight) and about 1-2 grams produces a good trip, very little pain at all. It's nothing like putting DMT in your mouth. But the effects are that of DMT. It's one of SWIM's favorite ways to use DMT.
 
narmz said:
Don't some tribes use like a blow-dart style tube to rocket the dmt-containing material into the nose? Maybe you could make some sort of contraption like that, and have a friend help ya out.
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The snuffs indigenous people use are actually 5-MeO-DMT from virola resin or bufotenine from yopo.
 
Your sister has insufflated 12 and 15mgs doses of 5MeO-DMT.HCl. The 12mg trip was divine achieving the mystical ++++complete with absolute withdrawl of the ego. The 15mgs was a rough ride.

In both instances there was NO nasal burn or drip to speak of.
 
What DMT salts have not been made? I have plenty of different acids kicking around to experiment with, the goal being to find a DMT salt that insufflates well without much burn. Any suggestions?
 
Elf Machine said:
What DMT salts have not been made? I have plenty of different acids kicking around to experiment with, the goal being to find a DMT salt that insufflates well without much burn. Any suggestions?
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As was mentioned on the thread in the nursery, I'm going to try to make up some DMT tartrate and give it a try. I am also curious about some of gummy / oily salts. Freezing and crushing could still return to a powder, even potentially in the case of an oil. It would obviously oil back up or something after insufflation but would theoretically be properly distributed at that point where it wouldn't matter too much. Perhaps it would even increase absorption somehow! I also haven't a clue about how snorting a very cold powder will change absorption or subsequent burning. But I can say with some confidence that it likely has not been tried systematically through the oily/waxy salts!

I like this line of inquiry though! Let's keep it up.

edit: Mentioned back a page is the fact that acetate burns significantly less during sublingual administration. Ron suggested some sort of cellulose carrier to deal with the waxy texture but I rather like the freeze and crush idea more. I will give this a try as well. Does anyone know if using distilled white vinegar or trying to find some pure acetic acid will make a difference in the end product? In theory distilled white vinegar evaporates completely, correct?
 
Elf Machine said:
What DMT salts have not been made? I have plenty of different acids kicking around to experiment with, the goal being to find a DMT salt that insufflates well without much burn. Any suggestions?
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First you need an acid that does not make a hygroscopic salt with dmt. This is why fumaric acid is used, because these salts you can dry to a powder, cut, line and snort.

What acids you have access to?
 
Infundibulum said:
What acids you have access to?
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Tartaric, ascorbic, citric, acetic, phosphoric, formic, sulphuric, and hydrochloric. Are certain acids more prone to form a hygroscopic salt? What would be the best candidates that wouldn't?
 
500mg DMT freebase was dissolved in 20mLs 99% IPA. 65% formic acid solution was added dropwise until pH 7 was reached, then left on a glass dish for evaporation. The result was a thick brownish transparent oil. Next?
 
Elf Machine said:
500mg DMT freebase was dissolved in 20mLs 99% IPA. 65% formic acid solution was added dropwise until pH 7 was reached, then left on a glass dish for evaporation. The result was a thick brownish transparent oil. Next?
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There's no next. You should also be concerned about your salting method; first, measuring the pH of IPA is wrong because pH is a property of water only. Your pH measurement may not be accurate. Second, even if your measurements were right, you do not have neutralisation at pH of 7. dmt formate (and almost any other dmt salt other than dmt chloride and dmt sulfate) behaves both as an acid and a base when in water. It is hard to know empirically the pH dmt formate has when it forms in water.


Also, none of your acids will make solid dmt salts.
 
I was aware most of them would form gooey salts. I was hoping freezing would let one crush it into a powder, if only temporarily. Might require a little melting and stirring or other trickery to make sure all that can evaporate does. If you still have your goo and want to give this a try please do and let me know if it crushes into powder. Might just turn into hard clay / wax too.

Haven't gotten around to making some myself yet. Just did a couple recrystallizations though so I have the material. Is tartrate a solid? Finding most reports saying it is. I can't find a report of it insufflated though. So I will make some tartrate at the very least, and probably some acetate, though again it might be tricky to make sure all the vinegar has evaporated. Does anyone know if pure acetic acid as opposed to vinegar would be better and produce a less moist product? I'm aware the problem is DMT salts being hydrophilic but I don't know how long it actually takes to goo-ify.

Actually thinking about it if the salt is hydrophilic then when frozen and crushed into a powder it will contain water. So this may actually increase absorption to tissues that require water soluble compounds. I can't wait to try! Might also produce a plethora of wee ice shards too so must proceed with caution and thorough crushing / chopping.
 
@Elf Machine. I believe the "most DMT salts are hydrophilic" type knowledge was gleaned from experimentation, mostly by users on forums such as this. I wish there were somewhere to find some collated data on the various forms -- perhaps we should make one here eventually. If I am wrong on this someone please point me toward the data -- DMT has sure been around long enough for it to be out there.

@Nobody in particular. I am reading the PiHKaL entry on DMT and Shulgin mentions the picrate salt forming needle-like yellow crystals with a melting point of 167 degrees Celsius (freebase is 60-80 methinks from going lore). Unfortunately from the small amount of research I did it appears to be highly unstable and likely to explode. Not so user friendly. I don't actually know how many acids that are usable there are, and how much of a difference there are between them. Surely there are tons of rare acids that haven't been tried? Are they simply theorized to be hydrophilic based on the majority of them being created being so?
 
dumbstruck said:
@Elf Machine. I believe the "most DMT salts are hydrophilic" type knowledge was gleaned from experimentation, mostly by users on forums such as this. I wish there were somewhere to find some collated data on the various forms -- perhaps we should make one here eventually. If I am wrong on this someone please point me toward the data -- DMT has sure been around long enough for it to be out there.
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Hygroscopic, not hydrophilic is the term. And yes, most of the data about the hygroscopic nature of dmt salts is derived by experience/experimentation. I am curious however as to who and how came to find that the fumarate salts are the less hygroscopic ones. Maybe the low solubility of fumaric acid in water per se has something to do with it, in which case one might be willing to test other not so water-soluble acids if he wishes to find other solid dmt salts. Fatty acids are often like this, e.g. pentanoic acid, hexanoic acid, heptanoic acit and so on. SWIM would like to try with octanoic acid whic he has available when he's got time for experiments.

dumbstruck said:
@Nobody in particular. I am reading the PiHKaL entry on DMT and Shulgin mentions the picrate salt forming needle-like yellow crystals with a melting point of 167 degrees Celsius (freebase is 60-80 methinks from going lore). Unfortunately from the small amount of research I did it appears to be highly unstable and likely to explode. Not so user friendly. I don't actually know how many acids that are usable there are, and how much of a difference there are between them. Surely there are tons of rare acids that haven't been tried? Are they simply theorized to be hydrophilic based on the majority of them being created being so?
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Too bad picric acid is uber dangerous. I'd discourage any discussion regarding this subject.


Elf Machine said:
Infundibulum, what would be a better salting procedure and how do we know none of them will make solid DMT salts?
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For many organic acids a good method is to dissolve dmt in acetone, then the acid in acetone and drop the acid-dissolved-in-acetone solution in the acetone solution containing dmt. Quickly the dmt salts will form and will precipitate. These are retrieved, washed 1-2 times with cold acetone and left to dry. That is the FASA method for making dmt fumarate and SWIM has used them to also make dmt tartrate, dmt citrate, dmt maleate and dmt malate. Dmt ascorbate is tougher to make since it is not very soluble in acetone, so methanol can be substituted in the above procedure.

For dmt hydrochloride dust add dmt in water, then add hydrochloric acid dropwise till dmt dissolves. Then evaorate water in the oven. The latter will also drive away any excess hydrochloric acid. Same procedure holds for sulfuric acid but then the dmt sulfate salts need to be washed away with acetone or some alcohol to wash away the sulfuric acid.
 
@Infundibulum. I knew that term but it just didn't seem right for some reason. Ah well, learning something every day! Anyhow, are there uncommon acids that, even properly washed out, will leave a toxic DMT salt? Is there a way to tell beforehand from knowledge of the acid? It would make some sense that the salt is more of a temporary carrier, and is broken off during metabolization before passing the BBB, but I really don't know. So we should be able to know which salts are okay to use, but then using hydrochloride or like salts surprise me a bit. Is it simply because they are in relatively low amounts fairly well distributed to do any concentrated damage? Or am I completely misunderstanding this whole absorption of salts vs freebase and resulting metabolization thing?
 
dumbstruck said:
@Infundibulum. I knew that term but it just didn't seem right for some reason. Ah well, learning something every day! Anyhow, are there uncommon acids that, even properly washed out, will leave a toxic DMT salt? Is there a way to tell beforehand from knowledge of the acid?
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Well, if an acid is safe to ingest at reasonable amounts, then it is safe. The acid needs not always to be washed out, it depends on what you really want. If you want clean dmt citrate for instance they one has to ensure that any unreacted citric acid is washed away. But if one wants to make dmt citrate to ingest, it makes no sense to get it pure. Leftovers from hydrochloric or sulfuric acid are dangerous due to their very high chemical reactivity.

dumbstruck said:
It would make some sense that the salt is more of a temporary carrier, and is broken off during metabolization before passing the BBB, but I really don't know. So we should be able to know which salts are okay to use, but then using hydrochloride or like salts surprise me a bit. Is it simply because they are in relatively low amounts fairly well distributed to do any concentrated damage? Or am I completely misunderstanding this whole absorption of salts vs freebase and resulting metabolization thing?
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None knows if and how different dmt salts may affect the pharmacokinetics of dmt. Pretty much though most of the commonly available salts are safe as long as one takes the necessary precautions (if needed of course)!
 
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