Novice question: has anyone failed at Easy Caapi Extraction?

[illa]

I feel silly asking as I can do way more comlicated things than the "Easy Caapi Extraction" but I have failed miserably on my first FEW attempts. Ugh I am so humbled and need help just answering one question: Is it the Vine?

After failing the first time and pulling small MG of impure alkaloids I really honed in on the recipe. Made sure I was following every step etc. I was using year old vine and suspected it, but after two failed attempts I ordered some vine that did seem fresher and still failed! I am ashamed to admit lol. My vine looks nothing like the fresh vine in the pics attached to Easy Caapi Extract and am wondering if anyone has failed due to the quality of the vine? I swear I ordered from a reputable source (I know we cannot talk about distributors and this is fine) and have ordered from a new vendor to see if this is the issue.

I asked AI and they did say it could be the vine. I am doing the normal slow simmer 3 times with white vinegar, straining and then following the recipe to basify but this is where it does not corrolate. I do not get a ton of light looking precipitation at all, and I am watching my PH closely as I have read this could be an issue. (9-10 a real pain to hit it wants to jump past 6 quickly)

I have gotten a very light textured brown precipitate and by the time I complete all the steps I have seen terrible yields, PLEASE HELP!

I can keep searching for fresh vine but the vine I have mostly seen is very dry and hard. I do run it through a miller to shred which makes filtering harder but insures maximum extraction so IDK.

I love Caapi. It makes all the difference. I have been cave-manning it till now, just shredding it in whole form and adding it to Changa and it works great to some extent like that but hurts my lungs and is not my goal. I need them sharp crytals people are describing.

When I mix Caapi and Daminana and small amounts of passionflower and mullein, (20% Caapi / 60% Damiana / other herbs) I have gone very far. It has increased the energy to the point my head will be filled with it to the brim. It has made all the difference but the best experineces have been hard to replicate so I am trying to advance my Changa with the MAOI pure crystal and feel like I am close to where I need to get to if I can just get some GD precipitate. Ugh like I said for a recipe labeled Easy I feel silly failing.

Any advice on if some vine sucks, like I said My A/B seems to not work.

 

[illa]

I also meant to point out my first attempt left me with small MG worth of impure. I was so bummed and tried to weigh out a hit to mix with some deem and could not even get it to read on the scale. It was slightly sparkly and I did not expect much. It was like a rocket launcher I never felt so much off a 1MG hit but wasnt't clean of plant matter and I felt that to. Even more confusing how my yield was non existant but my product was super potent. All 10 MG.

 

[blig-blug]

Is the problem low yields? Or purity?

If you consider your extract is not pure enough, you can do more acid-base cycles: just retrieve the freebase precipitate (no need to correct pH there), redissolve in acidic water and make it precipitate again. Let it decant and repeat the cycle if you want to purify it further.

If it's just low yield and you followed the tek correctly, without spilling etc., it's probably just the caapi IMO. It can vary a lot in alkaloid content.

Have you considered extracting Peganum harmala? It's much cheaper and has higher and more consistent alkaloid contents. I'm a beginner at extractions too and have been very successful with P. harmala extractions.

 

[doubledog]

I agree, Caapi is great.
I would do more water pulls and go higher with pH (to 11 at least), but your case really seems to be low quality of vine. Are you sure that you measure pH correctly and let settle the precipitate?

 

[illa]

Is the problem low yields? Or purity?

If you consider your extract is not pure enough, you can do more acid-base cycles: just retrieve the freebase precipitate (no need to correct pH there), redissolve in acidic water and make it precipitate again. Let it decant and repeat the cycle if you want to purify it further.

If it's just low yield and you followed the tek correctly, without spilling etc., it's probably just the caapi IMO. It can vary a lot in alkaloid content.

Have you considered extracting Peganum harmala? It's much cheaper and has higher and more consistent alkaloid contents. I'm a beginner at extractions too and have been very successful with P. harmala extractions.

Hey thank you for the comments, my problem was low yield and purity and I did apply a third A/B which helped the small amount of alkaloid I ended up with so TY. I always wanted to incorporate the vine in my mixes as it is a part of the Ayhuasca but at this point I just want nice looking crystals and will explore the Syrian Rude if I cannot find good vine. The vine in the pics from back when "Easy Caapi Extract" was written looks awesome and everything I order is very dry and hard. AI told me it oxidizes quickly and loses alkaloids I just figured a good bark distrubter would have good vine but maybe I need to look harder for a resource for good vine. Again I appreciate your help TY.

 

[illa]

I agree, Caapi is great.
I would do more water pulls and go higher with pH (to 11 at least), but your case really seems to be low quality of vine. Are you sure that you measure pH correctly and let settle the precipitate?

After doing it three times I was being very self critical and really think I need to find better vine. The reason I measured ph so critically was becasuse I looked through the many comments on "Easy Caapi Extract" to see if anyone was complaining about their vine. On the very last page somebody was articulating how to seperate the crytals with ph and I was impressed they had figured out so much. I am struggling to get results and did re-x my little product into two batches based on ph-8.5 and ph-12 (it jumped up quick) and will see how they differ. I will cut and paste what the guy wrote about ph I think it is valid and insightful.

Ruffles wrote:

I would also like to make a contribution in the tek.

After the acidification step (mid tek) and decanting the yellow-brown supernatant, basification should be done drop wise with slow mixing of the supernatant. When pH is low (up to 3-6), addition of base dropwise will cloud it but it will dissipate, this should be repeated with calm and patience as the pH of the whole solution must equilibrate before adding more. When you reach pH 7-8 the first magic happens as the clouds do not dissipate, the whole solution will cloud up and very quickly brown-darkbrown precipitates will form, pH checking will show pH between 6-8, don`t go higher than this right now, it`s very easy to overshoot without electronic pH meters. Stop shaking and let it fall to the bottom.

Near this threshold pKa for harmine, a lot of it will drop out, some harmaline certainly drops out as well but way less. After solution clarifies the supernatant will continue to be light yellowish, meaning harmine-harmaline still dissolved. Also, at this pH brown harmine may precipitate cleanly giving you yellow-brown needles, brown precipitates after washing turn yellowish. A good sign, beautiful sight, specially because the crystals size will help it fall to the bottom quickly.

The yellow solution can now be basified further to drop harmaline and the rest of harmine out. Just keep slow mixing and dropwise add base, don`t overshoot! This makes the precipitates drop out too fast and become a powder which do not fall to the bottom. If this happens, reacidify dropwise then rebasify. Harmaline will drop out as white precipitates, if your pH is not very high (pH 9-10), white needles will fall out (they have a smaller length than the previous). Stop shaking, wait for the full precipitation to occur. Decant supernatant (that will remain somewhat yellowish but not fluorescent, you can try recovering whatever is in it by adding more base and putting it in the fridge, not much will come out).

Follow up with final cleanup until pH is 7-8 and you`re good to go. I suggest washing the precipitates with water pH 7-8 (just prepare a bunch using small amount of base), not plain tap water or distilled, as it it too acidic and you may dissolve crystals.

My contribution here is simple: do gradual pH increases on the basification steps and you get cleaner and bigger crystals that will speed up decanting and you can separate harmine and harmaline in a very visual way, stupid easy to execute. It takes more patience but turns out it speeds up further steps. Do not overbasify!

If you add too much base at once, pH climbs too fast and alkaloids drop out instantly, resulting in a cloud that takes way too long to decant. Near the pKa, the alkaloids drop out slowly, sequentially adding themselves to precipitates making them larger.

Ty for your help doubledog I appreciate you.

 

[doubledog]

Afaik Harmala alkaloids are very stable, do not decompose when vine is dry.
Separation of different fraction is indeed possible using different pH levels, but I would not perform it on caapi - full spectrum caapi extract is great. It makes more sense to perform it on rue, to separate harmine and harmaline.

 

[illa]

Afaik Harmala alkaloids are very stable, do not decompose when vine is dry.
Separation of different fraction is indeed possible using different pH levels, but I would not perform it on caapi - full spectrum caapi extract is great. It makes more sense to perform it on rue, to separate harmine and harmaline.

Ok good advice and I guess that might also answer my question as to if my caapi was to old and dry or just not alkaloid rich. I appreciate it.