Omg, what the hell is this substance?

[gibran2]

Anything less than a ++++ (shulgin scale) would be unacceptable.

I agree with your analogies to a point...I also think that arrogant egos may need to be destroyed so that they can transform into a conscious and spiritually aware being, this may be traumatic, it may be unpleasant, but it also may be necessary.

My community is called "the church of Entheogenic gnosis", the basis if our spirituality is experiance, we experiance the non-physical first hand, we experiance the after-death first hand, we experiance the Divine first hand...all spirituality and religion is the exegesis of this experiance, so we removed the exegesis and all the nonsense that comes with it.

There is no "one proper way" to use DMT, I guess your intentions and goals determine a good deal.

If you want to be the most efficient you can vape 30mgs doses, efficiently using all your DMT, but this can be difficult for neophytes and non-enthusiasts, and the potential for a "failed brakethrough" is significant.

My methods "waste" DMT, but will consistently produce a peak experiance for ANY person who participates, I've never seen my method fail...Though I'm also very very very selective about who I initiate, I may just be picking people who are mentally susceptible to the peak DMT flash...

-eg

It’s true that a high dose will eliminate the possibility of a failed breakthrough, but it will at the same time create the possibility of a horrific and psychologically damaging experience. (For example, this seems to happen regularly with users of Salvia.)

My most profound mystical experiences were not my highest doses. As dose size increases beyond a certain point, dose does not correlate well with the depth of the experience.

Also, it’s very unlikely that you and you fellow travellers are achieving ++++ experiences on the Shulgin Scale. By definition, a ++++ is rare and not necessarily repeatable:

PLUS FOUR, (++++) A rare and precious transcendental state, which has been called a "peak experience," a "religious experience," "divine transformation," a "state of Samadhi" and many other names in other cultures. It is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity. It is a state of bliss, a participation mystique, a connectedness with both the interior and exterior universes, which has come about after the ingestion of a psychedelic drug, but which is not necessarily repeatable with a subsequent ingestion of that same drug. If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment.

I’m not trying to give you a hard time here – I just want to encourage safe and responsible use.

 

[tseuq]

[offtopic]

I also think that arrogant egos may need to be destroyed so that they can transform into a conscious and spiritually aware being, this may be traumatic, it may be unpleasant, but it also may be necessary.

...all spirituality and religion is the exegesis of this experiance, so we removed the exegesis and all the nonsense that comes with it.

This sounds all too paradox to me.

Btw, in my opinion, one who experienced ego-death can realize, that there is no ego at all, nor has ever been. It is a concept, an idea, a believe of what, who and how one is. A almost static, self knitted paradigm. And one oberves, that almost everyone is playing the game of identification, so one starts behaving like being emotionally attached to ones own creation (the play) and moreover starts taking it f***** seriously.
Funnily, egos also desire egolessness. In my experience, one simply can not "destroy" an idea. Have you ever tried? I tried it many many many many times and my "ego" is always coming "back", and will, as long as I remain in this life. Thus, instead of focusing ones attention on the process of fighting and destroying ("I have to destroy"), one can focus on the process of creation ("I can create") by taking responsibility for oneself.

What remains is freedom, which originates from unconditional love. Nothing has to be done at all.

To me, the extend of uncondional love is just unimaginable, without any fuss or quibble. Can you feel me? NOW, and till the end of (my) time, WE are (I) connected in every moment, regardless...

If one is eager to achieve or bring spiritual enlightment, the battle is already lost and more confusion is brought up.

Thus, when the peak experience is already a (the) state of being, life becomes a big recreational process. A pure pleasure and amusement of life itself.

In my opinion, no dose is high enough, if one insists in living ONLY a seperated-self paradigm of life.
[/offtopic]

ontopic:

WOW what a substance this is. Its unbeleivable to me that this stuff even exists.

Holy moly, I am feeling you! :lol:

tseuq

 

[subiazim]

as a 24/7 barefoot guy , we would be worried that the pipe-hawk falls on our foot - blade down..... oouch

Ha, I never even considered this. It's a ceremonial pipe, so the blade is dull.

Plus a sober helper usually takes the pipe from the individual who smoked before they exhale.



-eg

This is why it's important to have a trip sitter!

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Anything less than a ++++ (shulgin scale) would be unacceptable.

I agree with your analogies to a point...I also think that arrogant egos may need to be destroyed so that they can transform into a conscious and spiritually aware being, this may be traumatic, it may be unpleasant, but it also may be necessary.

My community is called "the church of Entheogenic gnosis", the basis if our spirituality is experiance, we experiance the non-physical first hand, we experiance the after-death first hand, we experiance the Divine first hand...all spirituality and religion is the exegesis of this experiance, so we removed the exegesis and all the nonsense that comes with it.

There is no "one proper way" to use DMT, I guess your intentions and goals determine a good deal.

If you want to be the most efficient you can vape 30mgs doses, efficiently using all your DMT, but this can be difficult for neophytes and non-enthusiasts, and the potential for a "failed brakethrough" is significant.

My methods "waste" DMT, but will consistently produce a peak experiance for ANY person who participates, I've never seen my method fail...Though I'm also very very very selective about who I initiate, I may just be picking people who are mentally susceptible to the peak DMT flash...

-eg

It’s true that a high dose will eliminate the possibility of a failed breakthrough, but it will at the same time create the possibility of a horrific and psychologically damaging experience. (For example, this seems to happen regularly with users of Salvia.)

My most profound mystical experiences were not my highest doses. As dose size increases beyond a certain point, dose does not correlate well with the depth of the experience.

Also, it’s very unlikely that you and you fellow travellers are achieving ++++ experiences on the Shulgin Scale. By definition, a ++++ is rare and not necessarily repeatable:

PLUS FOUR, (++++) A rare and precious transcendental state, which has been called a "peak experience," a "religious experience," "divine transformation," a "state of Samadhi" and many other names in other cultures. It is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity. It is a state of bliss, a participation mystique, a connectedness with both the interior and exterior universes, which has come about after the ingestion of a psychedelic drug, but which is not necessarily repeatable with a subsequent ingestion of that same drug. If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment.

I’m not trying to give you a hard time here – I just want to encourage safe and responsible use.

I understand, I actually Would be telling a person who has said what I have something very similar.


The initiation is a transformation, a (generally) one time event.

I've never repeated a 200mg dose since my initiation, and even lower dose experiences of near equal intensity fail to live up to this one, particularly in lasting impact.

I see these initiation events a ++++ experiance, sorry to repost this, but this is the event I'm referring to:

the first time I smoked DMT I consumed 200mgs, light-yellow translucent Dimethyltryptamine crystals on top of high-grade marijuana, I cleared the DMT as well as the marijuana in a single breath, and before I could exhale (or even count to 5) I was in an overwhelming state of intense psychedelia. Visually the world was not recognizable, time ceased to exist, I remember going into a panic, thinking "get this shit out of me!" And exhaling as rapidly as possible...but it was too late. I remember looking around, I was at the bottom of a foggy mountain with dirt roads, I was overcome with an intense feeling of panic and deja-vu, I felt like a lost child, everything I knew about who I was or my life or earth seemed like a distant dream, like I dissolved out of existence, I interpreted this as dying, I knew that I was dead, and I was emotionally overwhelmed while confronting the event of my death...at first you want to reach out for help, you think "call the fire department, or I need to call my family", but you quickly realize it's just you and death and you have to come to terms with it alone. I could not tell if I was breathing or not, I would take air in, but couldn't feel it, I then noticed a pain in my chest, a giant mantis like being had its claws in my chest, it proceeded to tear open my chest and stomach removing all my organs and insides, I was about to go into shock when I saw a bright green light flash over my shoulder, it nearly hit me, it then became a beautiful geometric object,a glowing stone or jewel, morphing and color changing. The mantis then put this object in my torn up corpse. The mantis then began to make billions of these objects, each one unique and radiating beautiful colored light, and my hollowed out corpse was filled with them, replacing all the organs that had been removed. Then I was sealed up in a burning flash of red light, and my newly rebuilt body was propelled into an orange light where I was resurrected...then I felt as if I was being pushed through a membrane, I was being born....then back to reality....those who were there said in reality I curled up into a ball and began to cry for 15 minutes, I was wondering why my face was wet, because it felt like I had actually just went through being born...any way the immense deep spiritual and psychological implications of this experience left me for ever transformed, reborn as a new person entirely, it was the single most meaningful thing that has ever happened to me.-EG

Now, here's a shulgin ++++ from TIHKAL (from 5-meo-DMT)

(with 15 mg, smoked) "At about 60 seconds after I smoked this free base, I beheld every thought that was going on everywhere in the universe and all possible realities while I was wracked out with this horrible ruthless love. It scared the hell out of me. When I could see again (15 minutes later) it was almost as if there was an echo of a thought in my head saying that I was given an extremely rare look at the true consciousness of it all. I've never been hit this hard since then. A definite ++++." -shulgin/TIHKAL

these initiation DMT events are life changers, that actually fit into shulgins definition of a ++++ quite well.

"rare, life changing, peak events" are ++++'s in my book.

I've heard all the criticisms regarding this technique and have taken them into account, and I'm NOT saying "the higher the dose the better", I'm saying at 150-200mgs dose I've been able to successfully and consistantly induce transformative experiance in several close friends and family members. I'm an organic chemist, and we have medical doctors and nurses in our community we are also working with a south American shaman, so I feel as far as being educated, informed, and prepared, we are on track. Our shaman says in his community there were similar initiation practices, only using Virola theiodora snuff (epena) at high dose.

I'm an advocate for safety, responsibility, and respect for these compounds, more so than most as I generally do not approve of recreational use, I see these compounds as sacred tools, not toys, and I do all that I can to these things are used safely and with responsibility and respect .

I can understand your criticisms, but can not argue with results, I've also said in previous posts in this thread, "we do not recommend that others attempt these techniques" I'm nit advocating for use in this manner, simply describing how my community has been using this tool.



-eg

 

[DiMiTreeZ]

I dont understand why some people have to give EG a hard time, he has a way of smoking and it works for him and gives him lifechanging experiences with DMT. It doesnt matter if some gets wasted, I am sure he is doing self extractions its probably not a huge deal for him as much as it is for getting him where he is looking to go, which are the bardo dimensions. I respect what he is doing fully.

 

[pitubo]

I don't think that anyone is specifically aiming to give EG a hard time.

There is an established policy at the nexus for harm reduction and responsible practice. Many people who are new to the subject and are searching for good information read this forum. We want information they pick up from this site to be accurate and in line with policy. For most people, the doses that EG reports are far too high to start with. This, also in the light of some earlier discussions in which EG advocated rather stern "initiation" doses, might explain some of the criticisms.

In general it is best to start low and work your way up to the point where you are where you want to be. Overshooting at the first attempt does more harm than good.

 

[Jees]

I dont understand why some people have to give EG a hard time...

Re-read the motifs perhaps, its all there.

I see, he has little reason to change a winning horse.
Maybe one reason though: wasting spice with a factor 3 ?

Peace!

 

[gibran2]

I've heard all the criticisms regarding this technique and have taken them into account, and I'm NOT saying "the higher the dose the better", I'm saying at 150-200mgs dose I've been able to successfully and consistantly induce transformative experiance in several close friends and family members. I'm an organic chemist, and we have medical doctors and nurses in our community we are also working with a south American shaman, so I feel as far as being educated, informed, and prepared, we are on track. Our shaman says in his community there were similar initiation practices, only using Virola theiodora snuff (epena) at high dose.

I'm an advocate for safety, responsibility, and respect for these compounds, more so than most as I generally do not approve of recreational use, I see these compounds as sacred tools, not toys, and I do all that I can to these things are used safely and with responsibility and respect .

I can understand your criticisms, but can not argue with results, I've also said in previous posts in this thread, "we do not recommend that others attempt these techniques" I'm nit advocating for use in this manner, simply describing how my community has been using this tool.

-eg

Thanks for the explanation and clarification. It’s appreciated.

I dont understand why some people have to give EG a hard time, he has a way of smoking and it works for him and gives him lifechanging experiences with DMT. It doesnt matter if some gets wasted, I am sure he is doing self extractions its probably not a huge deal for him as much as it is for getting him where he is looking to go, which are the bardo dimensions. I respect what he is doing fully.

It’s not a criticism of EG, but more of a safety reminder for inexperienced readers.
If someone loaded up a GVG with 200mg of DMT and by dumb luck managed to efficiently vaporize and inhale it all, they’d be in for quite a surprise.

 

[Doc Buxin]

...If someone loaded up a GVG with 200mg of DMT and by dumb luck managed to efficiently vaporize and inhale it all, they’d be in for quite a surprise...

:lol: :lol: :lol:


"Quite a surprise" is a serious understatement in this context!


:shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[Make Shift]

Now, consider the single record involving a dose which I would consider acceptable:

(with 100 mg, smoked) "As I exhaled I became terribly afraid, my heart very rapid and strong, palms sweating. A terrible sense of dread and doom filled me -- I knew what was happening, I knew I couldn't stop it, but it was so devastating; I was being destroyed -- all that was familiar, all reference points, all identity -- all viciously shattered in a few seconds. I couldn't even mourn the loss -- there was no one left to do the mourning. Up, up, out, out, eyes closed, I am at the speed of light, expanding, expanding, expanding, faster and faster until I have become so large that I no longer exist -- my speed is so great that everything has come to a stop -- here I gaze upon the entire universe." -TIHKAL

Quite the difference, no?

I've said this all along, what I'm doing is not recreation, this is transformation.

I'll let it go though, because honestly I can't recommend that others actually take these doses...Though for myself and a small group of trusted friends and family there's no other way to smoke DMT...

-eg

Of course some of us are able to achieve transformative experiences as described on as little as 25mg. Maybe it’s a function of differing neurochemistry?

I use a couple of analogies to express my views regarding dose size:

1. A low dose of DMT is like being brought to a door but no further – you know something lies beyond, but you’re not permitted entry. A higher dose is like being brought to a door with a window in it – you can see what’s on the other side, but you cannot participate. A sufficient dose of DMT is like opening a door, entering, and fully participating in the eternal mystery.

If the door is opened sufficiently to allow passage and full participation, is there anything gained by opening it wider?

2. A dose of DMT is like listening to music: At a very low dose, one has to strain to hear the music. Much of what is present in the music is too quiet to sense. At a sufficient dose, the music is loud and clear – every note and every nuance can be heard and appreciated. Turn the music up to 140 dB and the beauty and nuance are lost. What was beautiful is now painful and extremely unpleasant. Beyond a certain point, what is the point?

I look for a better explanation than this.
Wonderfully explained.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I don't see it as giving me a hard time, I for sure have an unusual way of doing things, and I'm actually glad there are people out there pointing out how my ways of doing things could potentially be the wrong way of doing things for another.

I have much enthusiasm, and often fail to mention all the preperations, prior-education, precautions and potential risks involved...

The last thing I would want is for a person who has not done DMT, to read my posts and decide that it's ok to take massive doses...I apologize for that aspect of things.

I can understand potential objections and don't take offense.


-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

[offtopic]

I also think that arrogant egos may need to be destroyed so that they can transform into a conscious and spiritually aware being, this may be traumatic, it may be unpleasant, but it also may be necessary.

...all spirituality and religion is the exegesis of this experiance, so we removed the exegesis and all the nonsense that comes with it.

This sounds all too paradox to me.

Btw, in my opinion, one who experienced ego-death can realize, that there is no ego at all, nor has ever been. It is a concept, an idea, a believe of what, who and how one is. A almost static, self knitted paradigm. And one oberves, that almost everyone is playing the game of identification, so one starts behaving like being emotionally attached to ones own creation (the play) and moreover starts taking it f***** seriously.
Funnily, egos also desire egolessness. In my experience, one simply can not "destroy" an idea. Have you ever tried? I tried it many many many many times and my "ego" is always coming "back", and will, as long as I remain in this life. Thus, instead of focusing ones attention on the process of fighting and destroying ("I have to destroy"), one can focus on the process of creation ("I can create") by taking responsibility for oneself.

What remains is freedom, which originates from unconditional love. Nothing has to be done at all.

To me, the extend of uncondional love is just unimaginable, without any fuss or quibble. Can you feel me? NOW, and till the end of (my) time, WE are (I) connected in every moment, regardless...

If one is eager to achieve or bring spiritual enlightment, the battle is already lost and more confusion is brought up.

Thus, when the peak experience is already a (the) state of being, life becomes a big recreational process. A pure pleasure and amusement of life itself.

In my opinion, no dose is high enough, if one insists in living ONLY a seperated-self paradigm of life.
[/offtopic]

ontopic:

WOW what a substance this is. Its unbeleivable to me that this stuff even exists.

Holy moly, I am feeling you! :lol:

tseuq

I'm having trouble understanding what you were trying to say.

Removal of textu-eg

 

[tseuq]

I'm having trouble understanding what you were trying to say.

Removal of textu-eg

Nevermind, it does not contribute relevant information on the topic of the thread.

Save and happy travels, namaste, tseuq

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I'm having trouble understanding what you were trying to say.

Removal of textu-eg

Nevermind, it does not contribute relevant information on the topic of the thread.

Save and happy travels, namaste, tseuq

Oh, it still seemed interesting though...

I apologize. if I'm unable to understand something, I found in the past I would simply just "pretend" like I did, and respond to what I thought was being said, only often times I was WAY off...so I always make a point of it to admit when I don't understand something, and inquire, so that I may understand.

I think anybody who actually has something to say is worth listening...

...most will talk about the drama at work or between their friends and family or make small talk about sports or television, to me it's all fairly fake and pretentious behavior, I don't care about any if those things, if your going to talk to someone, you should at least have something say, right?


It sounded like you actually had something to say.

Any way, you don't have to elaborate, or continue, I just felt I should explain myself.

-eg

 

[buddhabelly]

I've never liked the idea of psychedelic "gate keepers". Sort of along the lines of the grateful dead LSD family. It is up to the individual to decide if they are ready for DMT. Absolutely no one else. Sorry this just grinds my gears. Elitism, especially in the psychedelic community, seems directly adverse to the lessons that they teach

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I've never liked the idea of psychedelic "gate keepers". Sort of along the lines of the grateful dead LSD family. It is up to the individual to decide if they are ready for DMT. Absolutely no one else. Sorry this just grinds my gears. Elitism, especially in the psychedelic community, seems directly adverse to the lessons that they teach

I can't say I would be in favor of "gate-keepers" either...

The grateful dead had owsley "bear" Stanley as their sound engineer, he was also an LSD chemist, his brand of LSD was "white lightening", you can see this advertised and immortalised in the "steal your face" logo, which owsley and weir designed...

The dead were also the house band for Ken kesey and the merry pranksters acid test parties, where LSD was freely distributed to party goers...

The other major in clandestine LSD was Nick sand, sand and was responsible for orange sunshine acid, and was also the first know clandestine chemist to synthesize DMT rather than extract it...

I'm not going to detail all the history here, but I hardly see these folks as "gate-keepers", they were more like messengers, they didn't restrict access to psychedelics to any elite class, on the contrary they rather freely offered the compound to anybody who was willing to take it...

This method of free distribution has its flaws as well, but serving as an "elite gatekeeper class" doesn't seem to be one of them...

------

shamanic abilities are generally brought on by a personal crisis, such as illness or sudden shock. where this is not naturally forthcoming, initiation designed to produce the effects of such a state are used to bring about rebirth as a shaman -J. Mathews ; the shamanism bible

When a shaman initiates another, the shaman does not decide "you are ready, and you are not" he simply facilitates the experiance necessary.

-eg