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On the Legal Status of DMT Source Plants in the US (with a discussion of the religious use defense)

Migrated topic.
Heretic said:
Would this have no sway in court if used as a defense you think?

Santo Daime - The Rainforest's Doctrine - Community
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Unfortunately not. The fact that the UN chooses to allow something does not mean that member nations must also allow it, it simply gives them the option to (although if a UN treaty forbid ayahuasca brews containing DMT, that would compel the signatory nations to forbid it as well)... as we know, the US has chosen not to exercise that option and regards DMT and all things that contain it, including ayahuasca brews.



To cker and ShamanDoc, I agree with what you're both saying about the maladaptive prejudices that fuel the drug war. If you haven't read them, I highly recommend the Proemium from Jonathan Ott's Pharmacotheon and an essay entitled Legalize Methamphetamine by Marc Victor; both outline clear reasonable arguments why the only sensible or conscionable course of action is to abandon the drug war and legalize all drugs. Ethan Nadelmann, founder of the Drug Policy Alliance has also spoken eloquently on the subject.

I have to admit that part of what intrigues me so much about the argument from ubiquity is its potential to render the Controlled Substances Act invalid. Sure, if that happened Congress would be chomping at the bit to replace it, but I think it could open a healthy debate on the subject.

What drugs really need is a good PR campaign, one that cuts straight through all the propaganda and fear-mongering. People are gradually realizing that prohibition of cannabis is not only ineffective, it's entirely counterproductive and an affront to the notion of liberty that our forbears shed their blood to secure... this is promising, but it's only the start. Prohibition of any mind-altering drug, regardless of health risks, is an affront to the fundamental notion of liberty. Adults should be allowed to make their own decisions about what they put in their own bodies. Clear information with an eye towards harm reduction is crucial in the process of responsible decision-making, but attempting to control people's personal decisions about what to consume through criminal sanctions is simply unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

I didn't devote much space to these concerns when treating the question of "where do we go from here?" because self-evident truths about liberty and individual sovereignty do not hold any weight in a court of law. I fully support activism in these areas, but I was focused on considering the options under our current legal paradigm.
 
Also, even though Santo Daime and the UDV are supposed to have the legal right to obtain and consume dmt containing plants, even they have faced legal troubles. In the end, they usually technically "succeed" legally, but only after going through expensive, lengthy, soul draining legal battles. They avoid jail, but they get their sacraments stolen, and harassed. I thought about trying to join the Santo Daime church, but then I thought it actually seems more likely that I would face legal troubles if I were with them. The official status would just draw attention to myself. Even the current religious protection laws are no guarantee you won't be hassled for spiced plants.

There's always a chance you might get hassled for these plants, or what you make from them. And, even though it's clearly wrong, there's also a chance you might get charged for possessing millions of dollars worth of dmt if you have a kilogram of mimosa, bought for one hundred dollars. That is to say, some people are being charged with pure dmt for having mimosa. It's clearly wrong, but that's the issue that some are facing.

It's important mount whatever defense that may have had success in the past. Religious use is an option, ignorance of dmt quantity, the fact that so many animals contain dmt, it would be illegal to own a pet. There is also the issue of character. It's your job to convince a judge or jury why you shouldn't go to prison. Unfortunately, I do not have a link to the particular case, but I heard of a case on NPR news of a man who was arrested for cocaine or heroin. He defended himself. He admitted to using, but used personal use arguments, and character references. Basically, he was able to convince the jury that his use didn't have any detrimental effect on anyone, and the jury reached a verdict of not guilty. I wish I had the case because the way I described it sounds cheap. He didn't just walk in there and say, "my use doesn't hurt anyone so, don't send me to prison, please". It was a really interesting case. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Of course, as has been said already, people who use these plants must avoid attention! So far, all the cases I've heard of mimosa/dmt busts are people who are selling other stuff, or involved in other things. For God's sake, don't sell anything. I'm not inclined to even tell anyone, friend or otherwise that I've even heard of mimosa, or dmt. No one knows. There was also a recent case here of a person who got busted because he gave some dmt away to a dea agent. If I smoked weed, I would try to tell anyone that either. There was also a tragic case in Florida in which the police walked in to a father and son's house just to see if anyone was home, and they randomly found jars of mimosa. The people in the house were arrested for production of dmt. The father committed suicide shortly after. Stay under the radar please.
 
Another option is maybe that with many psychedelic plants, your defence could be that it wasn't your intention to use them for their narcotic properties. Like you can have cacti growing, just because they look nice, acacia confusa is used in traditional chinese medicine, jurema is used for some medicinal brew as well, etc. If you have a good story and you're not being caught extracting the stuff or ingesting it, in many cases it would be hard to proof that you use these plants for their psycho-active effects.

This principle is what many vendors of ethnobotanicals seem to use to be able to sell their plants legally: many have a disclaimer saying that their plant sample's aren't meant for human consumption.

If you feel that police raids are a serious possibility you have to reckon with where you live, having a story ready could proof usefull. Maybe having a few books on botany on your shelves or something could make that a more plausible story, in case the possesion of a combination of plants would strongly indicate 'substance abuse' as i suppose they'd call it.
 
^^ One caveat regarding "stories:" Don't BOTHER telling stories to the police (especially if they come breaking your door down). Save your stories for your LAWYER, who can tell them to the PROSECUTOR (not the police). There is essentially NO VALUE in saying anything at all to police. If they have broken down your door, for example, they're not going to suddenly say, "oh, please excuse us," and exit the premises. They will try to take ANYTHING you say to use against you (including LYING about what you've said).

If you say NOTHING to police (after all, the "police" damage has already been done, once you've tangled with the police), and instead allow your lawyer to speak with the prosecutor, in many cases he can convince the prosecutor NOT TO PROSECUTE. In that case your legal expenses are minimized, and you never even have to FACE any risk of conviction.

EDIT: Furthermore, if the police can show that you said something to them and it was a LIE (because, say, they found your posts on the DMT-Nexus), you can (and usually will) be prosecuted for OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. This is what happened to Martha Stewart, for example: there was no EVIDENCE that she made a stock trade based on "insider information," and she was never found guilty of that. But in ONE statement, she wasn't completely truthful in speaking with the FBI, and so she was convicted and sent to prison for "obstruction of justice." In America, there is simply NO REASON WHATSOEVER to answer any police questions, or tell the police any "stories." Tell the stories to your lawyer.
 
Yes, that was also what i suggested. To have a plausible story ready for your lawyer. Not the police. If you realy fear that they could come pounding at your door.
 
For our members in the UK, I came across a very thoughtful breakdown of the legal situation there. The author seems to have a solid grasp on the legal structure of the UK, and has been keeping his ear to the ground about recent and ongoing cases. It includes thoughts on weaknesses in the current administration of the law, considerations for mounting a defense, and an analysis of where activism is needed if the system is to be reformed.

Link: Class A for ayahuasca: looking for loopholes leads to UK’s first ayahuasca supply conviction
 
you must be able to demonstrate that your personal spiritual practices constitute a legitimate religion
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I hate that it's socially and legally accepted to have your religion handed to you at birth, but if your spiritual views are based on your having directly encountered God and the spirit world, well that's just not real religion.

As far as changing laws, I feel like it would be much more efficient to just leave the country. I mean, if you've got termites, fire damage, and foundation problems in your house, I think most people would agree that you should probably just move to another house. I don't know why some people complain about the U.S. so much and yet insist that they continue living here. I think it would be a lot better if EVERYONE who supported drug use, in the U.S., moved to another country with a more reasonable drug policy. If there were a sudden outflux of people taking their support and their money to other countries, somebody would have to get the message. I feel like our relationship to our own government is just a game, like the U.S. government is a shitty boyfriend who's just pushing the limits, seeing how much degrading stuff he can get away with. I think it's time we broke it off, and yet we all (yes, even me) insist on staying here and trying to fix this broken system.
 
SYNERGY

Please remove your unwanted comment from my YouTube video.

Mimosa Hostilis is 100% legal in the US

100% legal. Just like xylene, naphtha, lye and every thing else needed for extracting.

I stated " its for dye " in the video. which takes any unwanted attention away from it.

I'm providing a video that vouches for this gentlemen and his business in hopes that it would create more traffic for his business and in return make him more money. you shouldn't step on the toes of people doing a good and LEGAL thing.

3rd) There not a VENDOR. that a horrible name for them. its a business that sells material for dyeing fabric.

Your message brings unwanted attention to it.

someone who has no idea other then its for dyeing cloths would look at that message and wonder why your being negative towards it....

thanks.
 
Cannabinoids said:
SYNERGY

Please remove your unwanted comment from my YouTube video.

Mimosa Hostilis is 100% legal in the US

100% legal. Just like xylene, naphtha, lye and every thing else needed for extracting.

I stated " its for dye " in the video. which takes any unwanted attention away from it.

I'm providing a video that vouches for this gentlemen and his business in hopes that it would create more traffic for his business and in return make him more money. you shouldn't step on the toes of people doing a good and LEGAL thing.

3rd) There not a VENDOR. that a horrible name for them. its a business that sells material for dyeing fabric.

Your message brings unwanted attention to it.

someone who has no idea other then its for dyeing cloths would look at that message and wonder why your being negative towards it....

thanks.
Click to expand...


Actually, mimosa itself isn't scheduled, but it most definitely is technically illegal to posess. This has been described in great detail in many threads. I wouldn't care if was 100% legal. The whole point of my comment on your YouTube vid was that there is NO need to post up videos of packaging covered in the website name to the YouTube audience. They can find out about all of that information on msg boards if they're serious enough about it. Sorry, they most definitely are a vendor of MHRB. Everyone knows what MHRB is used for and anyone searching for it on YouTube knows damn well what it's used for.

You really think they're not getting enough business? To the point where you need to advertise on YouTube for them? I can't be 100% sure but I would guess that they would NOT want the vid up, for multiple reasons. Like I said in my comment, no need to bust their head on YouTube. Everyone knows they have great product and packaging. IMO those types of vids bring heat to specific suppliers.

Once again, it's not technically legal. It's a big grey area and vendors have already been raided. It's just unnecessary.

And the way YouTube works when you have comments enabled is that anyone can say anything, unwanted or not. I saw that I wasn't the only one who had the same line of thought on this issue.
 
Synergy said:
Cannabinoids said:
SYNERGY

Please remove your unwanted comment from my YouTube video.

Mimosa Hostilis is 100% legal in the US

100% legal. Just like xylene, naphtha, lye and every thing else needed for extracting.

I stated " its for dye " in the video. which takes any unwanted attention away from it.

I'm providing a video that vouches for this gentlemen and his business in hopes that it would create more traffic for his business and in return make him more money. you shouldn't step on the toes of people doing a good and LEGAL thing.

3rd) There not a VENDOR. that a horrible name for them. its a business that sells material for dyeing fabric.

Your message brings unwanted attention to it.

someone who has no idea other then its for dyeing cloths would look at that message and wonder why your being negative towards it....

thanks.
Click to expand...


Actually, mimosa itself isn't scheduled, but it most definitely is technically illegal to posess. This has been described in great detail in many threads. I wouldn't care if was 100% legal. The whole point of my comment on your YouTube vid was that there is NO need to post up videos of packaging covered in the website name to the YouTube audience. They can find out about all of that information on msg boards if they're serious enough about it. Sorry, they most definitely are a vendor of MHRB. Everyone knows what MHRB is used for and anyone searching for it on YouTube knows damn well what it's used for.

You really think they're not getting enough business? To the point where you need to advertise on YouTube for them? I can't be 100% sure but I would guess that they would NOT want the vid up, for multiple reasons. Like I said in my comment, no need to bust their head on YouTube. Everyone knows they have great product and packaging. IMO those types of vids bring heat to specific suppliers.

Once again, it's not technically legal. It's a big grey area and vendors have already been raided. It's just unnecessary.

And the way YouTube works when you have comments enabled is that anyone can say anything, unwanted or not. I saw that I wasn't the only one who had the same line of thought on this issue.
Click to expand...

I have yet to find ANY legal documents saying you can't poccess mimosa hostilis bark. Its legal for using as a dye.

do you know of these documents?

Yes there a vendor of bark but not a vendor for nexus. when you say "Vendor" is normally used to describe a company that supports the specific website that your own. Like how shroomery has there vendors and this place has there vendors/suppliers.

to put any negitive context in my video just make people itch there head and wonder why your complaining about a material used to make a natural dye.

the whole video leads nothing towards extracting or anything and in fact mentions using it as a DYE.

your useless comment just discredits the fact that the bark could be used for anything other then legal stuff.

Thanks for being another negative individual and not just showing some respect and taking down the comment and not being combative at all. (no respect in this world anymore)

Michigan grower is me and the comment was towards you. Can't log into the account to disable comments.
 
Cannabinoids said:
Synergy said:
Cannabinoids said:
SYNERGY

Please remove your unwanted comment from my YouTube video.

Mimosa Hostilis is 100% legal in the US

100% legal. Just like xylene, naphtha, lye and every thing else needed for extracting.

I stated " its for dye " in the video. which takes any unwanted attention away from it.

I'm providing a video that vouches for this gentlemen and his business in hopes that it would create more traffic for his business and in return make him more money. you shouldn't step on the toes of people doing a good and LEGAL thing.

3rd) There not a VENDOR. that a horrible name for them. its a business that sells material for dyeing fabric.

Your message brings unwanted attention to it.

someone who has no idea other then its for dyeing cloths would look at that message and wonder why your being negative towards it....

thanks.
Click to expand...


Actually, mimosa itself isn't scheduled, but it most definitely is technically illegal to posess. This has been described in great detail in many threads. I wouldn't care if was 100% legal. The whole point of my comment on your YouTube vid was that there is NO need to post up videos of packaging covered in the website name to the YouTube audience. They can find out about all of that information on msg boards if they're serious enough about it. Sorry, they most definitely are a vendor of MHRB. Everyone knows what MHRB is used for and anyone searching for it on YouTube knows damn well what it's used for.

You really think they're not getting enough business? To the point where you need to advertise on YouTube for them? I can't be 100% sure but I would guess that they would NOT want the vid up, for multiple reasons. Like I said in my comment, no need to bust their head on YouTube. Everyone knows they have great product and packaging. IMO those types of vids bring heat to specific suppliers.

Once again, it's not technically legal. It's a big grey area and vendors have already been raided. It's just unnecessary.

And the way YouTube works when you have comments enabled is that anyone can say anything, unwanted or not. I saw that I wasn't the only one who had the same line of thought on this issue.
Click to expand...

I have yet to find ANY legal documents saying you can't poccess mimosa hostilis bark. Its legal for using as a dye.

do you know of these documents?

Yes there a vendor of bark but not a vendor for nexus. when you say "Vendor" is normally used to describe a company that supports the specific website that your own. Like how shroomery has there vendors and this place has there vendors/suppliers.

to put any negitive context in my video just make people itch there head and wonder why your complaining about a material used to make a natural dye.

the whole video leads nothing towards extracting or anything and in fact mentions using it as a DYE.

your useless comment just discredits the fact that the bark could be used for anything other then legal stuff.

Thanks for being another negative individual and not just showing some respect and taking down the comment and not being combative at all. (no respect in this world anymore)

Michigan grower is me and the comment was towards you. Can't log into the account to disable comments.
Click to expand...


Nobody would be "itching their head". If they're on YouTube searching for MHRB then they most likely know what's up (as does law enforcement). Busting the supplier's head like that to the YouTube audience creates heaaat...and a lot of us want to keep our good suppliers. Raids have happened and there could easily be more.

Not trying to be negative, just stating how I feel about that specific thing. I don't equate censorship to respect. I don't feel like I've disrespected you by leaving up my thoughts on the issue. There are others that feel the same way. It's just my opinion.
 
Wow

Mhrb is for dyeing fabric period.
no US operated retailer of JUST mhrb has been raided. Only vendors who supplied multiple things have ever been raided. So stop saying nonsense and try siteimg some of these "laws" or "raids" of a vendor who ONLY sells mhrb

Its legal just like xylene, naphtha, lye and virtualy everything else used for basic extractions.

Yes. It is negative. Again mhrb is legal you use for dyeing fabric. your comment makes it seem lile it can be used for something other then what the video says. No shit WE here and the LAW knows that it can be used to extract spice from but the video is bias to that and is attended for legal purposes. However ur negative comment challenges the video. do u not get that? Its legal. There is nothing illigal in the video and if some one wanted to learn to dye the wouldnt come here.

Lastly u could act like a man and PM me about the video and or compain here instead ofposting a negative comment making my video look half legal. feel free to complain here all day I dont mind debating, im not asking u to not share ur opinion im askimg u to remove ur negative comment from my video yet you refuse. Thats disrespectful.

stop trying to be the police of the spice. Admin and many otheres including me are trying to educate ppl about this on YouTube not hide it.
YouTube Thread try to help not hold back.

Appologize for horrible spelling and grammar. doing this with one pointing finger.
 
Cannabinoids said:
Its legal just like xylene, naphtha, lye and virtualy everything else used for basic extractions.
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No...it's not. And no amount of you insisting that it is will change that. Did you read the link I shared earlier that clearly shows your claim about legality to be wrong?

Please, do not proselytize false information, especially regarding the legal status of certain goods. As soon as you know mhrb contains DMT (which you obviously do, as does everyone else reading this thread) it is illegal for you to possess it.

Please stop the charade about mhrb being "for dyeing fabric period." You are on the DMT-Nexus, so clearly that is a false statement. Read the text of the Controlled Substances Act and you will clearly see that mhrb is NOT explicitly legal and you are making false claims with regards to its legal status.

Imo (and many other Nexians)...youtube is NOT the place to spread information about DMT or entheogen vendors (despite the one thread you posted, that has yet to be acted on, afaik). There is one thread dedicated solely to pointing out/flagging inappropriate youtube videos. Finally, if you don't want someone posting on your youtube channel, that's an issue that should be hashed out on youtube, not a flame war here on the Nexus.
 
Cannabinoids said:
Wow

Mhrb is for dyeing fabric period.
no US operated retailer of JUST mhrb has been raided. Only vendors who supplied multiple things have ever been raided. So stop saying nonsense and try siteimg some of these "laws" or "raids" of a vendor who ONLY sells mhrb

Its legal just like xylene, naphtha, lye and virtualy everything else used for basic extractions.

Yes. It is negative. Again mhrb is legal you use for dyeing fabric. your comment makes it seem lile it can be used for something other then what the video says. No shit WE here and the LAW knows that it can be used to extract spice from but the video is bias to that and is attended for legal purposes. However ur negative comment challenges the video. do u not get that? Its legal. There is nothing illigal in the video and if some one wanted to learn to dye the wouldnt come here.

Lastly u could act like a man and PM me about the video and or compain here instead ofposting a negative comment making my video look half legal. feel free to complain here all day I dont mind debating, im not asking u to not share ur opinion im askimg u to remove ur negative comment from my video yet you refuse. Thats disrespectful.

stop trying to be the police of the spice. Admin and many otheres including me are trying to educate ppl about this on YouTube not hide it.
YouTube Thread try to help not hold back.

Appologize for horrible spelling and grammar. doing this with one pointing finger.
Click to expand...


I'm not even going to argue the legality issue with you. It's a given and most here know it's legal status. You sir, are wrong on that. If someone wanted to learn to dye? Really man? If they did, they wouldn't be looking at your video.

I could act like a man and PM you or complain here? I had no idea who you even were or that you were affiliated with the Nexus at all until you posted here. If I'd known, I probably would have commented on your vid and pm'd you here. I'm in no way trying to "police the spice". I'm just trying to make sure all of our good, reliable vendors stay that way so we can enjoy the spice. I don't think me leaving my comment up is disrespectful. When you enable comments you're basically going to get honest feedback. That's what I gave you and I still feel that way so I don't see the need to take it down. Take the vid down if my comment is that big of a problem.

Sorry to all for contributing to derailing this thread. I'm not going to keep going back and forth about it. Cannabinoids you can pm me if you have anything else to say about it.
 
Cannabinoids said:
Admin and many otheres including me are trying to educate ppl about this on YouTube not hide it.
Click to expand...


Which administrators on this forum are working on educating people on youtoob? Is there an official project under way?
 
So questions then about the whole "MHRB" being illegal and everyone seems to agree...then why is it in this forum section when it clearly states, "This is the place to share your experiences with suppliers of LEGAL goods." also if its Illegal in the US how is it that the vendor is located in the US and has a website and is on Amazon.

I found it hilarious that when i click on the MHRB though amazon, when you scroll down under PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT THIS ITEM ALSO BOUGHT, had (in exact order) 1/4lb MHRB Red Devil Lye, Organic Syrian Rue Peganum Harmala, Naphtha, turkey baster, ph strips, glass stir rod. LMAO
 
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