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Passiflora edulis toxicity? Producing cyanide?

Migrated topic.

jonyjo

Rising Star
Hi everyone!

I was looking for a good harmalas source, but seems hard to find where I live...

Furthermore, where i live, people usually like to smoke their DMT with passiflora edulis leaves. I was told it has harmalas in them. After some research, appears to be 0.1 - 0.2% in the leaves.

So I was like, cool, I got my harmalas source. But then, after searching around the internet, I found some articles stating that it also contents a cyanogenic compounds in them, that can transform to cyanide.

I also read on wiki that you can smoke the dried P. edulis leaves (source : Passiflora - Wikipedia ). Wouldn't this be risky, because of the cyanide stuff around this specie?

But after further research, I found that cyanide has a pretty low boiling point (<30C° ). So my question is, if I am going for a harmalas extraction on it, I will cook the leaves, will this be enough to remove any cyanide or other cyanogenic compounds of the solution?

I'm pretty sure it will, as I also read somewhere that the leaves of this particular specie of passiflora was used in Amazonia, as a sedative tea (source : Entheology.org - Preserving Ancient Knowledge )

My goal is to extract harmalas from it and also use the dried leaves to make changa with it. Do you think it is a good idea? Has anyone ever tried smoking P. Edulis leaves or made a harmalas extraction on it? If yes, what was the yield?

In advance, thank you very much.
 
The drying process 'destroys' most of the cyanide. Making tea from fresh passionflower would potentially be a different matter.

after further research, I found that cyanide has a pretty low boiling point (<30C° ).
That's for hydrogen cyanide. Other cyanides will typically have higher boiling points.

There's a good passiflora thread. Have a look at the forum index.
 
Hmmm...

Doing a quick search I was able to locate the following information:

Abstract
Passiflora edulis sims commonly known as Passion fruit belongs to the family Passifloraceae. The main aim of this study is to estimate one of the chemical constituents Harmaline by High Performance Thin Layer Chromatographic technique using precoated aluminium silica gel F-254 plates (Merck). The amount of Harmaline was estimated by comparing the peak area of standard and that present in the extract. The content of Harmaline present in the extract was found to be 0.085% w/w.

Publication insights: Estimation of Harmaline content in Passiflora edulis by HPTLC technique. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ntent_in_Passiflora_edulis_by_HPTLC_technique [accessed Apr 11, 2017].

The psychoactive properties of the Passiflora genus as a whole is still awaiting thorough ethnopharmacological study, however there are several species that have a rich history as entheogens. The psychoactive compounds documented to be found in Passiflora incarnata include vicenine-2, isoorientine, isovitexine-2”-O-glucoside, schaftoside, isoschaftoside, isoorientine2”-O-glucoside, isovitexine and swertisine. Saponarine, once thought to be a constituent, has been determined to be absent. Passiflora jorullensis contains passicol, harmol, harmane, harmine, and harmaline. The roots of Passiflora involucrata appear to be rich in B-carbolines with MAO-inhibiting properties

In Amazonia, a tea of maracuja leaves (Passiflora edulis) is imbibed as a sedative. Maracuja juice also allegedly contains MAO-inhibiting properties. A tea which is made form the leaves of tumbo (Passiflora quadrangularis) is used as a narcotic and sedative. The Kubeo Indian claim that a decoction of the leaves as Passiflora laurifolia has sleep-inducing effects. The Indians of the Caribbean and Central America also use several species of Passiflora as sedatives and sleeping agents. In the region of Iquitos, the roots of the Amazonian species Passiflora involucrata are used as an additive to ayahuasca to intensify the visions experienced during ceremonial rituals

ABSTRACT

A method for the quantification of the alkaloids harmane and harmine in sour passion fruit (Passiflora edulis f. flavicarpa O. Degener, Passifloraceae) pulp and seeds by stir-bar sorptive extraction and high performance liquid chromatography with fluorescence detection (dual SBSE-LC/Flu) is described. The SBSE parameters were optimized using a fractional factorial design, and the dual SBSE-LC/Flu method was validated following the International Conference on Harmonisation of Technical Requirements for Registration of Pharmaceuticals for Human Use (ICH) guidelines. The high sensitivity and minimal sample handling of the dual SBSE-LC/Flu method make it attractive for application in phytochemical analysis or in the food industry.

To the original poster, have you considered peganum harmala seeds?

-eg
 
The drying process 'destroys' most of the cyanide. Making tea from fresh passionflower would potentially be a different matter.

That's for hydrogen cyanide. Other cyanides will typically have higher boiling points.

Thank you for the info.

p.edulis?
I thought it's p.incarnata that contained low conc. of beta-carbolines.

In fact, I read some source stating that P. Edulis contained 0.2% harmala alkaloids. Somehow, I can not find this source... Maybe I misread or something?

This paper ( https://www.researchgate.net/profil...s_a_review/links/55ca118708aea2d9bdcbf5a4.pdf ), on page 2, suggests a concentration up to 0.12% harmalas in the leaves of P. Edulis. I quote :

The alkaloids reported to be present are
harman, harmine, harmalol and harmaline, the highest
concentration (0.12 mg%) of harman alkaloids is
present in the leaves.

Seems to be quiet on point with what eg said above.

This other paper ( http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1380125484_Ingale and Hivrale.pdf ), on page 2, states 0.01% or less harmalas in P. Incarnata :

The passiflora family contains small amounts of harmala alkaloids, harmane (passaflorine), and possibly harmine (telepathine), harmaline, harmol, and harmalol. The presence of the last four in P. incarnata is disputed (Bennati, 1968) because they are contained in only very small amounts (0.01% or less) (Lawrence, 1989).

OK, so P. Edulis doesn't contain 0.2% harmalas as I thought first, but still, it seems to contain around 10 times more than P. Incarnata, according to the sources I quoted above.

To the original poster, have you considered peganum harmala seeds?

Honestly, I would better like to use P. Harmala seeds, but I live in a small island where it doesn't grow. Furthermore, I don't know where to search for it. I mean, what kind of shop could sell it? I checked at some pharmacies, but they don't have it.
Also, note that there is no kind of smart or headshop where I live, and ordering from the internet isn't an option.

If I can find it, it's great, but if not, I would need to find some local source of harmalas. Considering P. Edulis grows all over the place around here, this may be my local source.
But I have to admit, it is a bit frustrating if it only contains 0.1% harmalas, as I would need a 1kg extraction just to get around 1g of the stuff... Do you guys have any other idea?

I thought about something else... Using kava kava extract as the MAOI. What do you guys think? I think I will make another thread about it, to keep this one clear.

Anyways, I think I will try to extract some harmala from some local P. Edulis, so I will know for good if it is a viable option or not. For sure I will let you guys know the results.

Thank you very much for your help, anyone!
 
jonyjo said:
The drying process 'destroys' most of the cyanide. Making tea from fresh passionflower would potentially be a different matter.

That's for hydrogen cyanide. Other cyanides will typically have higher boiling points.

Thank you for the info.

p.edulis?
I thought it's p.incarnata that contained low conc. of beta-carbolines.

In fact, I read some source stating that P. Edulis contained 0.2% harmala alkaloids. Somehow, I can not find this source... Maybe I misread or something?

This paper ( https://www.researchgate.net/profil...s_a_review/links/55ca118708aea2d9bdcbf5a4.pdf ), on page 2, suggests a concentration up to 0.12% harmalas in the leaves of P. Edulis. I quote :

The alkaloids reported to be present are
harman, harmine, harmalol and harmaline, the highest
concentration (0.12 mg%) of harman alkaloids is
present in the leaves.

Seems to be quiet on point with what eg said above.

This other paper ( http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1380125484_Ingale and Hivrale.pdf ), on page 2, states 0.01% or less harmalas in P. Incarnata :

The passiflora family contains small amounts of harmala alkaloids, harmane (passaflorine), and possibly harmine (telepathine), harmaline, harmol, and harmalol. The presence of the last four in P. incarnata is disputed (Bennati, 1968) because they are contained in only very small amounts (0.01% or less) (Lawrence, 1989).

OK, so P. Edulis doesn't contain 0.2% harmalas as I thought first, but still, it seems to contain around 10 times more than P. Incarnata, according to the sources I quoted above.

To the original poster, have you considered peganum harmala seeds?

Honestly, I would better like to use P. Harmala seeds, but I live in a small island where it doesn't grow. Furthermore, I don't know where to search for it. I mean, what kind of shop could sell it? I checked at some pharmacies, but they don't have it.
Also, note that there is no kind of smart or headshop where I live, and ordering from the internet isn't an option.

If I can find it, it's great, but if not, I would need to find some local source of harmalas. Considering P. Edulis grows all over the place around here, this may be my local source.
But I have to admit, it is a bit frustrating if it only contains 0.1% harmalas, as I would need a 1kg extraction just to get around 1g of the stuff... Do you guys have any other idea?

I thought about something else... Using kava kava extract as the MAOI. What do you guys think? I think I will make another thread about it, to keep this one clear.

Anyways, I think I will try to extract some harmala from some local P. Edulis, so I will know for good if it is a viable option or not. For sure I will let you guys know the results.

Thank you very much for your help, anyone!

I know it's not an option for you, but You can easily order peganum harmala online. If you type "buy peganum harmala seeds" into Google you will find many, many, sources. In most cases 4oz bags of these seeds only cost around 3 American dollars.

Try looking at middle eastern stores, peganum harmala seeds are sold as Aspand, Espand, Esphand, harmel, or harmal, in middle eastern markets, or in shops which carry herbs and/or spices. The seeds have a long history of being a sacred plant in the middle east, where they are thrown onto hot stones for protection from evil and evil spirits.

These seeds are 100% legal, and can be fairly easily purchased as their main use is as an ancient incense offering. In fact, in some of these cultures using harmel is quite common, if you are getting a new job, they throw harmel on hot stones, you are about to have a child, harmel on hot stones, if there is a wedding, harmel on hot stones, and so on, they are used for many occasions.

...These store bought "esphand" seeds are suitable as an MAOI, in fact, they are nothing more than peganum harmala seeds harvested off the plant, with no additives or treatments.

These plants also grow like weeds, but with seeds so easily and inexpensively available growing seems unnecessary.

Chemically these seeds are very similar to caapi vine, they also have quite a history of use in ayahuasca analogues, as well as having an approximate dose range:

---- This is for the seeds of Syrian rue ----

1 teaspoon rue seeds = 3 grams = 60-180 mg alkaloids

1 tablespoon rue seeds = 9 grams = 200-600 mg alkaloids

1 large (OO) gelatin capsule with ground rue seeds = 0.7 gram = 15-45 mg alkaloids

Shulgin;TIHKAL

I would see PHS as the more reasonable option. Research and experimentation are great, but if you are simply wanting to consume an ayahuasca analogue, then I would recommend using the known plant sources for such an endeavor.

-eg
 
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