pH of finished brew? Appreciate any input 🙏

[Jimbob888]

Hello, i am new to the forum, but have had a healthy interest in the subject matter for the last 8 years.

I am sorry for charging straight in with a question, but i had a dream last night and am a little concerned if i don’t understand it correctly then i could end up with an upset stomach. From the stress of course.

In my dream i extracted from acacia and caapi using spring water with a little phosphoric acid to stabilise the pH at roughly 2.5

After 3 runs of 3 hours each (basically the whole night was this dream), i then began to reduce. My concern that’s keeping me awake is that the pH is holding steady at 2.5 and i don’t know if that is too low to consume once its boiled down to the correct amount? Or should i look to add some extra spring water to bring the pH higher then reduce?

Thank you for your insights , the medicine is my life and i hope to be able to add something to the forum as my knowledge base grows from reading and absorbing

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Phosphoric acid is non-volatile so you'll be increasing its concentration - and thereby lowering the pH - during the volume reduction. Adding a pinch or two of a basic salt like magnesium or calcium carbonate will help here, keeping the pH up in a more tooth-friendly range. Potassium or sodium carbonate will also work but the resulting phosphates are more soluble than those of magnesium or calcium, which may or may not be relevant depending on what will be done with the brew after reducing.

Welcome to the Nexus.

 

[Jimbob888]

Very interesting, I have ordered the magnesium carbonate.

Thanks from both myself and my dentist. I have made a small donation to the Nexus - the work you are all doing here is invaluable

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Very interesting, I have ordered the magnesium carbonate.

Thanks from both myself and my dentist. I have made a small donation to the Nexus - the work you are all doing here is invaluable

Oh, OK - calcium carbonate would have been cheaper, or even free, but I guess magnesium carbonate isn't exactly going to break the bank either.

Do you have any idea how much magnesium carbonate you'll be adding to the brew? A small excess (~300 milligrams) of soluble magnesium will act as a beneficial mineral supplement, but once you get much above a gram of it (reckoned as magnesium) the laxative effect starts to manifest.

 

[Jimbob888]

I had to use about 100ml of 81% phosphoric acid in total across 40 litres of water to hold the pH at 2.5. My target is 500ml, or roughly 25ml per dose. The finished brew will be for 20 people, so hopefully the laxative effect will be negligable :shock: .

I have paused the reduction at about 5 litres until the magnesium carbonate arrives tomorrow. On the basis of potential side effects i’m thinking i’ll just get the pH above 3 rather than overdoing it

I brewed last week using an identical process but substituting white vinegar instead. The pH was in a healthier range, but i have always enjoyed side by side experiments, rather than just going with the first method i try. Plus i expect the taste to be dramatically different

Its all a steep learning curve for me, but i am in this for the long haul, and very grateful to have the opportunity to prepare medicine for others.

Thanks again for your assistance

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Ah, so you were in effect planning to feed each person a teaspoonful of 81% phosphoric acid - got it... and diluted to 25mL, that would be a shot of 16% phosphoric acid. Are you sure you really thought this through? And have you read and understood our attitude page?

Attitude Page - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

In that respect, you might want to edit your last post a bit.

 

[Jimbob888]

Thank you very much for that - like i said its a very steep learning curve and my lack of knowledge is why i raised the question initially.

I’ll stick to the vinegar method and dispose of the phosphoric acid attempt. The last thing i want is to harm anyone

Rather than edit it, maybe i should leave the thread here in case others may innocently make the same mistake as me and use something to drop the pH that is not suitable.

Although i genuinely don’t understand how people can achieve a low pH using phosphoric acid without falling into the same trap? My spring water started at pH 7 and i only used the bare minimum to drop it to 2.5. Could it be the fact i used spring water instead of distilled/RO water?

Again I appreciate your teachings, but if you feel its better to delete the whole thread then i’ll do so.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Hope you haven't ditched the brew yet because it would still be usable for an extraction. It would be a shame to waste the precious bark, really. It's not strictly necessary to acidify a brew made with neutral water anyhow, as the bark itself is somewhat acidic - did you measure the pH of the bark [presumably ACRB?]/water suspension before adding the acid?

Still, I'm glad to have brought the issues to your awareness because that's what the Nexus is here for. The thought that I've helped prevent possible harm to some people helps to make my efforts seem worthwhile - and it really is a good thing that you asked. The thing I was suggesting that you edit is where you mention the number of doses it was intended to be.

This thread will definitely be kept because it keeps cropping up that people need to be aware of the ins and outs of using phosphoric acid in brews, especially the potential dangers from concentrating the liquid.

I did a quick calculation regarding neutralisation with magnesium carbonate and you would have needed to have used about 100g of it. The laxative effect wouldn't be relevant if you were able to filter off the insoluble magnesium phosphate that would have been produced. However, because magnesium also forms insoluble tannates, and because some of the acidic phosphates of magnesium are somewhat soluble, the calculation gets rather more complicated.

Not to mention two additional factors: magnesium carbonate itself is insoluble, and the commercial material tends to contain some amount or other of magnesium hydroxide. This latter point means only 94g of a 1:1 basic magnesium carbonate would be needed to neutralise 81g of phosphoric acid.

Presumably you've received your magnesium carbonate by now. What does it say about the hydroxide content on the label or data sheet? You may even be able to use it for an extraction from the ill-starred acacian phosphate brew.

 

[Jimbob888]

Sorry for the delay in replying, i was struck down with some form of illness. Thankfully not due to me drinking any of the ill fated concoction. I still have it - luckily i read your response before i gave up on it altogether. It is down to 3 very acidic litres. Extraction sounds like a possibility, although in the past i have only used a tek using lye and naphtha. I’m assuming my way out of this mess will require a few extra steps? The magnesium carbonate i bought is linked at the base of this post.

In other news, having firmly veered away from chemical compounds i don’t know enough about, i have mustered my courage and am lining up my next attempt. My vinegar brew and my vitamin C brew were both suitably potent. However they had such a ‘unique’ flavour profile that i struggled to keep them down long enough for the fireworks to commence. Which is really saying something considering that Aya is already known for being an acquired taste.

Following on from your reply, i am going to try without any additives at all to lower pH. My thinking is that i’ll require more acrb to reach the same potency since the pH will be 6 rather than 2.5-3?

Sorry for drawing this thread out, but i’d like to think that in future a fellow idiot/newcomer such as myself will happen upon this conversation and maybe save themselves a good few days of experimentation.

Thanks again for your guidance and patience

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