Pharma Fail - Help please...

[sauSage]

A few weeks ago I tried 200mg of full spectrum harmalas (freebase) in a glass of orange juice and had a wonderful time. I really got to experience what MAO inhibition feels like; zero coordination, kind of a drunk feeling, etc. It felt very comfortable and pleasant.

So this weekend I thought I'd give pharma a try. I had recently gotten some harmine freebase from robert @ heavenly and was eager to see what it was like. At 8pm I mixed 150mg of the harmine in a glass of OJ and I mixed 20mg of freebase DMT in a shotglass of OJ and let them sit for a couple of hours.

At 10pm I drank the OJ with 150mg in it. I didn't get nearly as strong a feeling as I did with the full spectrum, very little loss of coordination, mild euphoria in my head. I did have a change in body temperature which let me know that something was going on. Frustrated, and thinking I hadn't take enough, I drank another 100mg in OJ at 1030 and waited.

By about 1115 there was no significant change in how I felt, so I figgured I would try the DMT. Drank back the shot and laid in bed waiting for something to happen, and nothing ever happened.

The last thing I remember was being very sleepy from the harmine. I woke up the next day feeling great, but didn't get even the slightest light show or even strange dreams.

So what did I do wrong? Some guidance please.

Thanks!

peace

ps

 

[changalvia]

According to your body chemistry etc i may be wrong as everyone is different, but I think your dosage of the DMT was too little. Most people report effects from around 50 - 200mg DMT

 

[○]

Try 220mg harmalas then about 30 minutes later try 60mg dmt.

 

[universecannon]

how long did you wait between your last harmala dose and taking the dmt? it might have just been too long

i would just try 200mg harmalas and then take around 30-50mg dmt 5 to 10 minutes afterwards. it also can help to eat a small bit of fruit after you get it all in you, in order to get digestion flowing- which helps kick the trip into gear

pharma "misfires" are very common though so don't feel bad. plus everyone also needs different amounts..you may be one of the folks who needs more dmt than most (that said it always depends also on the amount of harmalas...the more harmalas, the less dmt you tend to need to get far out there. harmalas are very psychedelic on their own at high doses in silent darkness)

 

[Michal_R]

Hi Paulsage,

I think it´s great you are starting low with previously unexplored entheogens. Albeit I consider myself to be rather sensitive to psychedelics, 20mg of DMT in Pharmahuasca would be too little for me. I think I wouldn´t even reach the stage of CEVs. I personally started with 30mg, but upped to 50mg next time.

Precise timing could also make a difference... I space the Harmalas and DMT by 20 minutes and it works for me. How empty/full your stomach is could also make a difference.

 

[DMT777]

I agree with everyone else, 20mg is a very light oral dose. Just keep working your way up. :thumb_up:

 

[sauSage]

I tried again this past weekend. 220mg of harmine HCL in orange juice. Drank it and then waited 15 minutes and drank 50mg of freebase DMT in a shot of OJ.

Nothing, zero, nada. I mean, other than the warm fuzzy that that harmine produced.

*What* am I doing wrong?????

 

[Jorkest]

i really dont get this...why do people always wait to take dmt after the harmalas??

i take some of the lowest doses i hear about on the forum ...and still get powerful effects...and i ALWAYS take the harmalas and the dmt at the same time...ALWAYS...

for a mild but solid trip..i take 100mg harmine with 20mg dmt fumarate..in ONE capsule..i make sure the harmine and dmt are mixed up well in the capsule so that when you digest the capsule there is harmine around the dmt to protect it in the gut...it also aborbs into the blood stream at the same time as the dmt..thus protecting it in the blood stream as well

also..i like to take the capsule after eating a small amount of food...this gets the stomach digesting which keeps a lot of nausea at bay(body is just thinking FOOD and not POISON)..and also sorta slows down the comeup(i am very sensitive to oral dmt..so it kicks in very very fast if i dont do this)

but ive done this dozens of times and havent misfired once...

 

[wearepeople]

for a mild but solid trip..i take 100mg harmine with 20mg dmt fumamate..in ONE capsule..i make sure the harmine and dmt are mixed up well in the capsule so that when you digest the capsule there is harmine around the dmt to protect it in the gut...it also aborbs into the blood stream at the same time as the dmt..thus protecting it in the blood stream as well

Isn't DMT fumatate orally active by itself? It's a salt.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

Isn't DMT fumatate orally active by itself? It's a salt.

salts are still metabolized by your MAO

 

[venom]

i really dont get this...why do people always wait to take dmt after the harmalas??

i take some of the lowest doses i hear about on the forum ...and still get powerful effects...and i ALWAYS take the harmalas and the dmt at the same time...ALWAYS...

for a mild but solid trip..i take 100mg harmine with 20mg dmt fumarate..in ONE capsule..i make sure the harmine and dmt are mixed up well in the capsule so that when you digest the capsule there is harmine around the dmt to protect it in the gut...it also aborbs into the blood stream at the same time as the dmt..thus protecting it in the blood stream as well

also..i like to take the capsule after eating a small amount of food...this gets the stomach digesting which keeps a lot of nausea at bay(body is just thinking FOOD and not POISON)..and also sorta slows down the comeup(i am very sensitive to oral dmt..so it kicks in very very fast if i dont do this)

but ive done this dozens of times and havent misfired once...

can only agree with this one,
take both at same time, 100 to 200mg harmala extract is more than enough,
than take between 50mg - 100mg of dmt and it eat something to get the stomach going,
after 40 mins u will almost be there where u want to be

 

[Journeymann]

Try 220mg harmalas then about 30 minutes later try 60mg dmt.

Tat, isnt dmt freebase for smoking situations and if it was in the oj did it convert to dmt-citrate?

No chem. major here but was just wondering what the chem. conversion took place in the oj.

I love to learn from other questions 8)

 

[Journeymann]

I think you'd be better off using an actual dmt freebase conversion tek without OJ.

 

[Michal_R]

...if it was in the oj did it convert to dmt-citrate?...

I´m no chemist, but yes, I think that DMT + OJ = dmt-citrate

I think you'd be better off using an actual dmt freebase conversion tek without OJ...

I don´t understand this suggestion. What does "actual dmt freebase conversion tek" mean?

When digested orally, DMT freebase would turn into DMT-HCl in your stomach anyways, AFAIK. The main point of mixing DMT into an OJ is, I think, to make it more easy to ingest...

 

[Journeymann]

I think you'd be better off using an actual dmt freebase conversion tek without OJ...

I don´t understand this suggestion. What does "actual dmt freebase conversion tek" mean?

When digested orally, DMT freebase would turn into DMT-HCl in your stomach anyways, AFAIK. The main point of mixing DMT into an OJ is, I think, to make it more easy to ingest...

It is my understanding that dmt-citrate is less effective than salt forms than say furmate or HCl and that is why I was suggesting using an actual tek to get dmt-furmate from the freebase first and omitting the OJ so that it didnt convert to a citrate again and just use water for that reason.

It looks like you swithced gears on me in your 2nd reply in that we were talking about it being in OJ first then consumed then to a freebase question.

I followed this guys posts and he did finally have success found here without using OJ and instead used capsules direct to the stomach which is a confirmation that the dmt-freebase to dmt-hcl conversionin the stomach is better than the oj route which does a dmt-freebase to dmt-citrate to dmt-hcl.

From what I am learning of the pharmahasca route if one is that if it is in freebase form it is just better to get it into the belly so the conversion can be done there. He also poked holes in the capsule which would say that the hci in the stomach worked to convert the dmt freebase quicker by the hcl getting to the freebase sooner than waiting for the capsule to breakdown then converting.

This is probably why most people have this delayed reaction when they use the capsules and need to eat something to get thing rolling.

My end conclusion are thus on my pharmahausca studies.
Dont use citriate based drinks to 'cover the taste' becuase there is an inefficiant conversion to dmt-citrate.

If the dmt is in freebase form use a capsule with holes in it so that the hcl in the stomach can start the conversion of freebase to dmt-hcl faster and then when it slides into the small intestines it will be ready for absorbation as dmt-hcl.

If the dmt if a furmate then do the same thing with the capsules (poking holes in it) the dmt-furmate is still going to convert to dmt-hcl but if it doesnt all convert to dmt-hcl then at least it is still in the original furmate form which in and of it self is ready for absorbition.

I am sure that that our mad science chem. technicians here can/will correct me on the conversions but this is what I am seeing so far.

Any corrections are always appreciated because I do not want to mislead folks with my newbie understandings.

:roll:

 

[venom]

i guess u made a mistake that acetate or citrate is less potent than freebase
idont knoww the exact numbers but its like
5gr dmt-freebase converted to citrate will become f.e. 5.4gr dmt-citrate because of the molecular structure that changes also.

maybe i understood u wrong, if so, plz skip this post

 

[Journeymann]

Well we do know that he tried every salt/acid conversion under the sun as he posted in his success story so any conversion outside the body seems to be ineffecient.

We also know that the natives just drank the freebase/original salt forms after boiling and it works.

I dont recall reading natives using OJ in their werk either :lol:

2 other things...
1) Id love to hear from an actual scientist on the forum to see what their opinions on this subject
2) It would be a pleausre to have you as a lab partner as we seem to play devils advoacte well with out offending each other :twisted:

Prost!

 

[Journeymann]

Maybe it has something to do the pKa of the dmt molecule and too many conversions happening at once.

We do know that the pKa of dmt 8.68 and if there is not enough citric acid to get the pKa -2 factor going than maybe something is getting locked up or not converted at all.

 

[Vodsel]

I haven't seen any reference about DMT citrate being less efficient orally than DMT fumarate per se. The only difference might be due to the fact a molecule of citric acid is heavier than a molecule of fumaric acid, hence the same weight of DMT salt would contain more actives in the case of DMT fumarate, simply because DMT fumarate is a lighter compound. But I've taken both adjusting the weight of the dose correspondingly and found no difference in intensity. The advantage of fumarate can be convenient and clean storage.

Regarding the oral use of straight freebase, keep in mind that many reports claim it's more harsh on the stomach, which makes sense since our stomach mucosa reacts more strongly to alkaline compounds.

I don't think I will stop using OJ... it also improves the taste for me.

Edit: For the record, I am not an actual scientist.

 

[Journeymann]

I haven't seen any reference about DMT citrate being less efficient orally than DMT fumarate per se. The only difference might be due to the fact a molecule of citric acid is heavier than a molecule of fumaric acid, hence the same weight of DMT salt would contain more actives in the case of DMT fumarate, simply because DMT fumarate is a lighter compound. But I've taken both adjusting the weight of the dose correspondingly and found no difference in intensity. The advantage of fumarate can be convenient and clean storage.

Regarding the oral use of straight freebase, keep in mind that many reports claim it's more harsh on the stomach, which makes sense since our stomach mucosa reacts more strongly to alkaline compounds.

I don't think I will stop using OJ... it also improves the taste for me.

Edit: For the record, I am not an actual scientist.

Thanks for your reply Vodsel. I was unaware of the freebase disruption in the stomach. I thought the nauzea was from the oils, tannins, etc that are removed in the extrac.process.

So from what you know, why do you think this guy had all failures until he did the capsules straight to the stomach?