pharmahuasca and adult ADHD

[burnt]

A friend of SWIMs has a kind of adult ADHD. I am not sure what all his symptoms are but he often describes his normal mind state of being a flood of thought tracks, voices that he recognizes are not real (not psychotic), and general noise. His outward personality very much reflects this. He's a great guy and very intelligent but its obvious the distress his condition causes him and he often requires medication to stay focused.

He's tried pharmahuasca 3 times and each time he states that he experiences a kind of calm and tranquility. He states that the flood of thoughts slows down to what I guess normal people experience. He states this lasts for about a week. One time he noticed that alcohol broke the calm. I forget how long he said the other times lasted.

As someone interested in therapeutic application of psychoactive drugs I find his story very interesting. I know its normal after a nice trip to have a feeling of calm but this seems like hes getting a real therapeutic effect that seems to last quite a while. I wonder if it can be optimized. I also wonder if this may be another therapeutic window to do clinical research on. I have no idea what the mechanism might be. I have no idea about the chemical imbalance typical of adult ADHD and similar disorders.

Any input would be appreciated.

 

[DMTripper]

Yes it can be optimized by him not using any drugs or alcohol and yoga would do him great. He should also go through his diet. Certain foods can affect ADHD in a bad way. Just google ADHD and diet.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

I wonder how the use of Caapi would compare to pharma, if it would be more therapeutic or not?

 

[burnt]

He told me yoga and meditation helps.

I've asked him to compare MAOI with pharmahuasca not sure if he has yet. I'm curious if its MAOI's or Maoi's combined with dmt. Hes also tried pure dmt and while he likes it I'm not sure it has same long lasting effect.

 

[Dorge]

they have had incredible success utilizing biofeedback machines for ADHD. There is one product out that Andrew wiel and depack chapra promote and are in called the wild divine. I think this would be very helpful. The research I've seen with severe cases in children with out mess has been dramatic to say the least. They run through a sort of video game format... But you control the video game with your mind... Which is pretty neat!
Might be worth looking into.

 

[burnt]

^^Thanks for advise but I can't stand Deepak Chopra. The guy is a total fraud and I refuse to support anything he does.

 

[headphoneperson]

Although I am not fully up-to-date on all the recent scientific literature in ADHD, my understanding is that ADHD is associated with decreased frontal lobe activity which decreases 'executive' control over behavior (including attention). This is supported with many converging lines of evidence from EEG data to fMRI data to cognitive and behavioral observational data. As such, ADHD is probably better thought of as a "Behavior Inhibition Disorder" where the fundamental mechanism responsible for the array of symptoms is difficulty in inhibiting one's immediate behavioral responses -- where the individual's behavior is more at the mercy of external, immediate environmental contingencies (i.e., 'rewards') rather than being under the direct control of internal volition. This frontal lobe 'deficit' gives rise to impulsivity, hyperactivity, and inattention -- the hallmarks of ADHD -- all normally under control of the frontal lobe.

Ritalin and other stimulants have the effect of increasing frontal lobe activity which seems to then counter the symptoms resulting from otherwise lowered activity levels in the frontal lobe. Perhaps MAOIs achieve a similar result if they are responsible for blocking the metabolism of norepinephrine? Unfortunately, I don't think there have been any controlled clinical trials of MAOI and ADHD because of all the side-effects and problems inherent in MAOI treatment reginmes (e.g., diet, etc.).

Anyway, the effect your friend reports may very well be due to the MAOIs, although it is hard to imagine it lasting for a week...

 

[Saidin]

^^Thanks for advise but I can't stand Deepak Chopra. The guy is a total fraud and I refuse to support anything he does.

Why to throw out the baby with the bathwater...If you were dying of thirst and Chopra offered you a bottle of water, would you reject that too?

 

[burnt]

Why to throw out the baby with the bathwater...If you were dying of thirst and Chopra offered you a bottle of water, would you reject that too?

No I'd drink water. But I won't be using any biofeedback machines. They have a long history of being known as quack devices used by quack medical practitioners. I consider Deepak Chopra a quack.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/electro.html

Note the link pertains to the devices not to Chopra. We could have a whole separate discussion about that guy.

Ritalin and other stimulants have the effect of increasing frontal lobe activity which seems to then counter the symptoms resulting from otherwise lowered activity levels in the frontal lobe. Perhaps MAOIs achieve a similar result if they are responsible for blocking the metabolism of norepinephrine? Unfortunately, I don't think there have been any controlled clinical trials of MAOI and ADHD because of all the side-effects and problems inherent in MAOI treatment reginmes (e.g., diet, etc.).

Anyway, the effect your friend reports may very well be due to the MAOIs, although it is hard to imagine it lasting for a week...

Could be longer term change in gene expression? Maybe who knows just speculation.

He sometimes takes amphetamines for his condition but always takes time off before using any other substance. I am unsure of his current medical regiments though. He says they don't really help though I am not sure. I can't speak for him.

Regardless its interesting.

 

[polytrip]

There are two different thoughts i have about this.
-substances that are known to be helpfull for ADHD all increase levels of dopamine or simulate dopamine themselves. Harmala's also increase levels of dopamine, wich is why they're also effective against parkinsonism.
People who suffer from ADHD have a dopamine receptor that 95% of all the 'normal' people don't have. I don't know what this receptor does, but at least you can say that they're sensitive for dopamine in a different way than most of the population and where drugs that increase levels of dopamine normally tend to have a stimulating effect, it tends to calm people who have ADHD.
-Harmala's cause brainwave activity that is simmilar to the brainwave activity when you meditate. I don't know how harmala's do this, but people who meditate will immediately recognize the effect. Some substances like teanine also stimulate the brain to produce lower frequencies, but they all work on GABA receptors.

Meditating btw, does roughly the same as all these fancy biofeedback equipment that costs so much, is supposed to do. I don't have any experience with biofeedback and know to little about it to comment on it, but there are other ways that don't cost a dime that have the same results. I would recommend trying them out, since they're free.

The first thing is meditation. The easyest way to meditate is to lie down, relax, and breathe deeply with your lower abdomen instead of your chest. While doing this you close your eyes and look upward, while you also focus your attention to your forehead. Try to imagine a sound like 'ohm' or 'hmm' that repeats regularly and lasts for about two seconds.
Most of the people will feel powerfull effects within 20 seconds. wich is a feeling of floating, a tingling sensation, deep relaxation, etc.

Another thing is binaural beats. You can find them for free all over the web. Closing your eyes while listening to binaural beats with headphones will have a simmilar effect as meditation. It is probably easier for people with ADHD since you don't have to concentrate while listening. Closing your eyes and looking upwards while listening is the only thing you have to do.

It's worth trying.

 

[ragabr]

None of those devices fall into the type of biofeedback being suggested.

 

[corpus callosum]

Heres a pretty good article on what is known/postulated about child/adult ADHD:

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD): Background, Pathophysiology, Epidemiology

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a developmental condition of inattention and distractibility, with or without accompanying hyperactivity. There are 3 basic forms of ADHD described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Fifth Edition (DSM-5) of the American Psychiatric...

emedicine.medscape.com

From here there are some good links into the various treatment strategies and the neurochemical basis of each treatment choice.

Seems to me that ADHD represents the external manifestations of a widespread but subtle developmental disorder which is more dopamine/norepinephrine dependant than requiring serotonin.I could imagine MAOIs having some use but the essence of targeted treatment would require either more target-specific MAOIs or a much clearer understanding of which pathways cause the symptoms to be made apparent.And this is NOT an easy endeavor!

 

[burnt]

He's been using meditation. Said it also helps. Good stuff.

 

[godling]

i have had adhd since i was born.. i was the kid that was bouncing off the walls and wouldn't shut up.. lol.. entheogens definitely help TONS, especially zhrooms.. i find that maoi's quiet my mind and i am able to be still.. .. also.. vitamins help.. gives my thoughts more fluidity.. one particular type of vitamin from bluebonnet called Power Thought.. this is amazing for my mind.. i get it at http://www.mothernature.com/index.cfm ... as well as exercising/jogging...

adderall and ritlin is crap.. i personally can't stand that stuff.. it doesn't "fix" anything.. doctors started me on it when i was like 10 or younger.. basically in like the 1st grade.... that stuff doesn't enable you at all.. it doesn't allow you to learn how to bring your thoughts into unison and screws with your own natural energy production....they are just temporary fixes and should only be used if absolutely needed..... ---nothing against anyone who uses them, i just can't stand em

 

[prottel]

With the harmalas, I have noticed this calm, especially at very high doses. It can definitely last for a week. Probably longer at even higher doses. I am currently experimenting with higher and higher doses of harmaline. It will be interesting to see if I notice any trends in this regard.

 

[burnt]

Yea I really think this guy has something different about his MAO system. Hes got a much different tolerance then quite a number of people when it comes to a variety of psychedelics.