Need Help From Men, Specifically, Working Through Feelings of Violence and The Philosophy of Being Wronged

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Man, great topic, I can definitely relate.

I've pinched weed from friends, felt awful about it. Yet the two times I've been burned, for about $3,000 each time, the people showed no remorse. That's the worst.

First time was by a classmate I'd known for 13 years who introduced me to weed and convinced me to buy a computer, TV monitor, and a few other tech accessories totaling about $3k to launch a business with. Looking back, I feel like I was manipulated into buying those things. I was in college at the time and the business venture never even took off, but he was still using the tech at his home. About a year later I asked for it back since we weren't doing any business with it and I needed the money. I was living in another state by then and he basically said no he's not returning it and blocked me. It was really shocking, especially after I was nice enough to loan him a brand new tv and computer for a couple years. Soon after I had to move back home for financial reasons and had the time to go find him. It definitely feels icky to have to ask people if they've seen someone and literally track them down.

In that case it worked out, when I confronted him in person he didn't try to argue, and he still had the items to return, although I think the TV didn't work or something. It probably took a few years, but we actually were able to get over that and become better friends. I believe he felt guilty about it and has brought up feeling guilty about it a couple times. That's what matters, I think.

I've been ripped off $100-500 by several people when I used to front. In some cases, it wasn't the amount or even the betrayal itself that was hard to let go, but the senselessness of it. One that I really wanted retribution for was by a dude that pretended to be a wealthy, fatherly, honorable person on social media, but couldn't find the time to answer months of messages about paying me back. I wanted to leave a 1 star review on his name that everyone could see. But after years those smaller incidents have mostly been forgotten. And as someone else said, those smaller dollar amounts are almost worth the clarity.

One incident though I really couldn't let go and it bothered me for years until I did something about it. By then I was already pretty jaded and defensive, and holding a strict, no-tolerance morality on theft. I trusted this woman who I'd known for a few months to stay with me for a week until a court date. An ex was stalking her at her home and she was getting a restraining order. I didn't detect any nefarious intentions, but I had cameras and later pieced together that she had basically been playing me the whole time. It's referred to as a "crime of opportunity". On the final day she was staying I accidentally left a drawer unlocked while at work and she made off with every dollar I had, over 3k. I absolutely panicked but there wasn't a lot I could do because I was just starting to take over a friend's weed business, it was technically his money.

Her sister lived in the building and I was able to get some info from her and emailed her mom and got more info, but in both cases it was basically "ooooh sorry that happened to you, she's mentally unstable and addicted to meth. I tried asking her but she denies, there's not much I can do and don't want to be involved."

I couldn't let that go, even after my dealer friend basically ate half the loss and told me not to worry about it. He really was super cool about it. He kept arranging for packages of herb to get mailed to me, and over the next couple years two of these packages didn't make it. I'm not sure if he was on the hook for any of the value of those losses, but this time it was my turn to support him. I was in the middle of really doing everything I could to prevent that from happening to him again when he ended up relapsing and fatally overdosed on heroin shortly after the last lost shipment. His death and the loss of his friendship and business greatly affected me in an emotional and material way. Suddenly, the $3k loss was grievous again, and the thieves that caused him stress had blood on their hands, the way I saw it.

The anger and hate was obsessive. Reinforced by the fact that the thief has had at least a couple years to feel guilty and make it right, but has only continued to take advantage of her situation and other people. I took great lengths to come up with a plan for retribution, and executed it well enough apparently. I didn't get a dollar back out of it, but I equalized the loss she inflicted on me. I'm not proud of what I did, and gaining a guilty conscience only stressed me out more in the aftermath. But something about it was relieving though, to finally serve justice. It's really a powerful act to stand up for yourself.

I haven't talked about it with other people, but it gives a lot to think about. Immediately after the theft I was trying to cope and let go of the pain, and put my faith in karma and my friend's forgiveness. After two years, all karma got me was a dead friend and a thief with no remorse. I don't believe in karma anymore, or any version of a just god balancing the scales of humanity. And my own 'getting away with it' was additional evidence that either there is no karma, or I was justified in enacting my own karma.

Anyway, deep down it was righteous and balancing the scales was transformational. Not only did it heal my pain, but it literally scared her straight. She may have already been wanting to recover, as any addict eventually does, but I actually think it was me that caused her to re-evaluate her life choices and get her shit together. I would have preferred LEO be the enforcer, but this experience has made me question how effective our criminal reformation system even is.

In summary, call the police and have them charged with theft if you can. If not, you might have to find a way to make it right enough that you can let it go. I really don't recommend vengeance, especially if it could expose you to risk that would outweigh the benefit. But if you worry that you're letting someone walk all over you, you should do something about it. Try to directly confront them again, in a reasonable way, and let them know how their betrayal makes you feel and that you're still hurting and expect them to at least acknowledge you and how their actions have hurt you. That in itself can be so healing, just to be heard. If they won't listen to you keep venting to us or a priest or more professional counselors if you're feeling out of control.

If vengeance is the only option stay patient and wait for the right opportunity.

I'm curious about other solutions though because I am dealing with anger at work lately. There's systemic mismanagement going on and it amounts to about an extra hour of my labor each day fixing mistakes. It's really hard not to explode on people, but just letting it go and eating the loss each day was building up so much tension. I have to report every problem now, which feels about as icky as tracking down the guy who stole from me. But emotionally, it helps not build up a grudge-like attitude when I can hold someone's feet to the fire. As long as they acknowledge the expectation that wasn't met, it's enough to forgive shortcomings. But I need to know they know they hurt me.

 

[northape]

After two years, all karma got me was a dead friend and a thief with no remorse. I don't believe in karma anymore, or any version of a just god balancing the scales of humanity. And my own 'getting away with it' was additional evidence that either there is no karma, or I was justified in enacting my own karma.

That's not how karma works. Many misunderstand what karma (God) is. It's just a law, similar to how gravity is a law, so there is no agency there. Karma is not good or bad; that's our human view of it. It's a basic law of cause and effect. You can't expect it to work according to your personal expectation or timetable. Even your actions in that situation could be considered karma. Sadly, that word became a part of Western culture without much understanding of it.

 

[Nydex]

That's not how karma works. Many misunderstand what karma (God) is. It's just a law, similar to how gravity is a law, so there is no agency there. Karma is not good or bad; that's our human view of it. It's a basic law of cause and effect. You can't expect it to work according to your personal expectation or timetable. Even your actions in that situation could be considered karma. Sadly, that word became a part of Western culture without much understanding of it.

To expand a bit more on that, there are no obligations for karma to work immediately. Sometimes it takes decades, or even a whole different lifetime, for the balance of things to catch up to you. That would at least partially explain why some seemingly wonderful people seem to struggle their entire lives for no apparent reason.

Or at least that's the tale I choose to tell myself. In the end, I have no idea how the world works

 

[brokedownpalace10]

When you are wronged, it's always better to forgive. Not for them, but for yourself. It's an old saw, but it's true.
However, when a person is still in the process of wronging you, the situation is not behind you, how do you handle that forgiveness to let it go. You're allowed to fight back I'm sure, but how to let it not consume you? What is worth being consumed?
Let me know if you figure it out.

 

[northape]

When you are wronged, it's always better to forgive. Not for them, but for yourself. It's an old saw, but it's true.
However, when a person is still in the process of wronging you, the situation is not behind you, how do you handle that forgiveness to let it go. You're allowed to fight back I'm sure, but how to let it not consume you? What is worth being consumed?
Let me know if you figure it out.

I did a Tonglen meditation a few times when things were very hard. It was extremely difficult, but I felt relief almost immediately.
We humans tend to dehumanize our enemies and create stories about them. Just seeing the other as a suffering human being helps a lot.
No one said that forgiveness is easy, but it is the most healthy choice. Whenever I remember my foes, I remind myself that they are human and forgive them.
In my case, putting a distance between me and my abuser helped. You need to be left to your own devices to see what is what.

 

[LuxObscura]

Some people only show their true face when desire or pressure hits.
That’s when you see exactly what something is worth to them and whether a friendship is worth anything at all.
If someone steals from you and even rubs it in your face, that’s clear evidence, that this person doesn’t value you.

Better to get that evidence early than waste years on a "friendship" that was never real.

Addiction or mental issues can explain why someone falls apart, but they don’t excuse how they treat you.
Intentions matter:
Whether someone enjoys causing harm,
whether they genuinely regret it,
or whether they only pretend to.
With a bit of experience, you can tell the difference.

Personally, I’d remove someone like that from my life.
The price you paid for that clarity is worth it.
I wouldn’t pay them back in the same way.
I won’t let someone elses lack of character spill over into mine.
There are people out there who are like you: loyal, respectful.
And if you start acting like the wrong kind of person, you’ll eventually hurt the people who don’t deserve it.

"Show me your friends, and I’ll tell you who you are."
Sometimes that just means cutting off the ones who drag you down.

 

[LuxObscura]

Some people only show their true face when desire or pressure hits.
That’s when you see exactly what something is worth to them and whether a friendship is worth anything at all.
If someone steals from you and even rubs it in your face, that’s clear evidence, that this person doesn’t value you.

Better to get that evidence early than waste years on a "friendship" that was never real.

Addiction or mental issues can explain why someone falls apart, but they don’t excuse how they treat you.
Intentions matter:
Whether someone enjoys causing harm,
whether they genuinely regret it,
or whether they only pretend to.
With a bit of experience, you can tell the difference.

Personally, I’d remove someone like that from my life.
The price you paid for that clarity is worth it.
I wouldn’t pay them back in the same way.
I won’t let someone elses lack of character spill over into mine.
There are people out there who are like you: loyal, respectful.
And if you start acting like the wrong kind of person, you’ll eventually hurt the people who don’t deserve it.

"Show me your friends, and I’ll tell you who you are."
Sometimes that just means cutting off the ones who drag you down.

Also one thing people forget is that someone who steals money for drugs will use that money to push their dose even higher.
And anyone who flies that high will crash hard.
You don’t need revenge for that, reality takes care of it.
Call it karma or call it simple causal consequence, the result is the same.

 

[blig-blug]

I can relate to you, definitely. In my case it hasn't been about money, but as you say, in the end the specific cause is not that important, it's the feeling of having been wronged, betrayed, and/or taken advantage of.

That being said, I'll start with the money part. Would $1000 be a reasonable price to put an end to the situation, recover your money, and to have better and more accurate information about that person's character? If so, you already have it.
Of course what would be best is if he gave you back the money, but in this case that seems to be just hoping that reality right now wouldn't be as it is.

On letting go (what follows is just how I try to approach this kind of thoughts): I think you're almost for sure already doing it. Even if you are thinking about it obsessively (I don't know if that's the case), there are almost for sure many moments during the day when right now, in that moment, you aren't. In those moments you have fully let go, which proves that not only you can do it, but are doing it already.

Now, that one has let go of something at a specific moment in time says nothing about the next moment, and vice versa. There are no guarantees after the next moment. However, if you are able to catch the moment when it comes back, you have a high chance of success of getting rid of it in that very same moment, as when it first appears in the mind it's still weak. Picture it as a mental judo throw more than a face to face fight with it. Intentionally bringing a happy thought helps. Some people think that that's somehow "fake" or "forcing", but as I see it what is actually fake is the idea that thoughts aren't a kind of action by oneself, and instead come from somewhere else.

It's when one is not aware that it's coming into the mind when it has more time to become strong and get a lot of inertia. Even if this happens, at some point it will go away as it came. And that's the chance to be alert to what is in your mind, in order that thoughts that harm you don't take root. Even if there are no guarantees about the next moment, increased awareness and increased training allow the whole process to progressively become easier, and over time the moments where those thoughts are present become less and less frequent.

There is no state of guaranteed perpetual peace, the mind and the world change from one moment to the next. What counts is what we do right now, both absolutely (thoughts not present in your mind right now don't exist in your mind) and over time (training increases awareness and the ability to deal better with our own mental conditioning, progressively weakening it).

In the end, the thought of being betrayed or wronged is a victim mindset, as are most if not all thoughts that lead to suffering. The feeling of success at being more and more able to avoid performing mental self-torture, and recognizing that there is no enemy, help to shift that mindset. In my experience, this actually leads to one being more able to stand up to others instead of less, and to do it in a more balanced way instead of from a state of fight/flight/freeze.

 

[Sky Motion]

@Voidmatrix

"Let's just say, I regret the ways in which I have allowed myself to be walked on, but it only continues until we learn the lesson to find the balance in caring for others and being comfortable in advocating for ourselves."

The second part of the sentence is where it is my responsibility and also where my fault lies. Past 4 years (or maybe even all my life) I gave everything to others and nothing to myself. Slowly coming back from that has been weird.

@newusername1 I was the punching bag too, always small, always bullied. Hella annoying.

 

[Sky Motion]

@LuxObscura crazy wise words, thanks for taking the time to think that through and write. It means a lot.

 

[fink]

As cliche as it sounds, the best revenge really is just to live well and be happy. Kindness will hurt you ex-friend more than a bloody nose.

 

[TalkingTree]

I’m dealing with a situation that has been bothering me for a while (over a year), and I’m trying to process my feelings around it. Someone who was a good friend has deeply wronged me, stolen money from me during addiction, and also rubbed it in my face disrespectfully, so that after they got their shit together, they made it very clear that I would not be paid back unless I go by their terms. They showed a level of disrespect that hits hard. Naturally, part of me wants to react and teach them a lesson, or at least express the anger I feel physically. But I also know that acting on violence or letting impulses take over is not the answer... (sigh)


The struggle is finding closure. I keep asking myself if, when I am older, will I regret always letting people walk over me? . Or will I regret the moments when I acted rashly and did not rise above the situation? I have never been in a fight, or struggled with feelings of violence or revenge before this incident (and ive been around a little bit!)


I am curious if other men here have struggled with similar feelings, such as wanting to strike back or assert yourself when you have been wronged, and how you have handled that tension. How do you cope with the urge for retribution while still staying true to being the bigger man? Any perspectives, personal experiences, or advice would be appreciated, I can't seem to let it go.

Hi Bro. Hope you are well.
I have been there and am still working on myself. What’s written below is just a gist of years of practicing self awareness and continues to this day. I dont mean rigorous routines, meditation, chanting etc.
just being aware as often as I could.

What helped me was understanding my three states - the ‘I’, the ‘me’ my mind and ‘me’ the body.

Your post was written by the ‘me’.
Being aware is when your ‘I’ speaks to your ’me’.
It will as you questions like is this really necessary. Is it worth my time?
It will make statements like ‘so what’ ‘let them’.
Listen to the voice of your consciousness. It will always have your well being at its core.
It will help you to protect your peace from being influenced by actions of others.
I know it’s not easy.. even I have to check myself to get back on track every time I feel I am slipping into thoughts of helplessness shame and revenge.
Every morning I am grateful that I wake up with a pulse.
I am thankful for what I have, what I want and what I need.
I am grateful for just ‘what is’


There’s a difference between giving up and letting go….
And remind yourself that the universe is always aligned towards your best interests… let it do its thing and trust its timing.
Stay blessed brother

 

[Zee_p]

Betrayal is not a very nice thing to have to deal with and I am sorry for you, sometimes it seems that when you live life with an open heart it gets abused by some, but don't let that dim your light and ruin it for yourself and others I have dealt with some extreme cases of betrayal, best thing is to get on with your life and invest your energy into spaces and people that receive it well, and don't be hard on yourself, go well