Pharmahuasca = less nausea than Pharmarue at high doses?

[alkan0id]

Sorry to hear your not making progress, but it seems like your putting all of your eggs into one basket my friend..Are you taking a wider approach to your self-healing and engaging in things like exercise, a healthy diet (no processed/junk food etc), lots of water, time in nature, yoga, meditation, reading, writing, hobbies you love, etc, in combination with this harmala approach?

For things like relieving childhood trauma or depression i think that sometimes its really important to have that tryptamine element in with the harmalas. Harmalas alone can help people, but that combination is what really is key at times...Harmalas are like the cave but without the tryptamine torch it might not be a very illuminating journey in the way that your looking for

I doubt it has much if anything to do with rue being "duller" than caapi. Rue is incredibly psychedelic if you take enough in silent darkness. But like i said, that tryptamine element is important. I've relived and integrated a lot of childhood experiences on aya and pharma, including traumatic experiences, but i can't recalling doing that much if at all without any light/dmt in the mix

" I read those that say pharma is "all the goodness, without the nausea"

I dont know where people get that idea. Pharma can be extremely nauseating. Maybe they were taking big doses of ayahuasca and then only smaller doses of pharma? Who knows

 

[alkan0id]

I'm doing the best I can given the poor circumstances. Motivation is key to it all obviously - and this is what has been lacking most of my life. The NoFap community on Reddit has been a HUGE help in this regard - someone on another thread directed me to it, and I am eternally grateful. I never realised I had such a self-destructive and self-defeating habit. At least now I'm eating better than I was (still not perfect), exercising, and trying to reintegrate myself into babylon as best I can (this is tough without a job). I actually used to take the scenic nature route in my daily walks but now I make a point of going directly into the thick of urban hell instead to actually mingle with the ants and be a human being again. All my reading and writing takes the form of forum/reddit posts, I've become quite prodigious in this regard without really realising it. Basically my progress is too slow, my passion for life close to zero, and circumstances around me not being cooperative enough with my newfound motivation. I need the self-love and forgiveness that a truly epic dose of caapi ought to give, and I need it ASAP.

You are not the first to emphasise the importance of having light in the mix.. this is where I have been slack. Looking back, theres no excuse for it. Half a gram or even less of chaliponga with half a gram of vitamin c in a cup of redbush tea is more than enough to flesh out a moderate dose of caapi or rue. There's no excuse for not doing this every day. I'm baffled as to why i wasn't more profligate with the light before I stopped the harmalas a month or so ago.

Honestly, taking rue harmalas every day became the most boring thing ever. Even at nauseating doses (~200mg) there were almost no thoughts and no visuals. Just a slightly energising glow that faded into a MAOI mong. The need for light here is even clearer now.

" I read those that say pharma is "all the goodness, without the nausea"

I dont know where people get that idea. Pharma can be extremely nauseating. Maybe they were taking big doses of ayahuasca and then only smaller doses of pharma? Who knows

Yeah I think these people are mostly spice-heads who only use the bare minimum harmala dose needed for inhibition. From my experience with harmala, getting above a certain level of inebriation will guarantee nausea.

As far as light being necessary for healing of childhood trauma and depression in general, can you recommend any particular dose levels or ratios? If the light is the most important part, then a moderate 100-150mg dose of harmalas would be enough to activate the spice with little or no nausea. On the other hand, if a heavy harmala accompaniment is better, than the nausea is worth it.

 

[gibran2]

The idea that if a little of something is good, and a little more is better, then a lot more will be fantastic is… false. At least with aya/pharma.

Depression is hard (years of experience talking here) and it’s understandable that you want relief, but I honestly don’t think a massive dose of caapi will do it. However, a “just right” dose might help.

A dose that’s just right can be very therapeutic and do positive things that too low or too high a dose simply can’t do. Finding the right dose takes time and patience, and the right dose for you isn’t necessarily the right dose for anyone else. That being said, 200mg caapi alkaloids taken in 2 equal doses (in capsules) separated by 30 minutes, followed 30 minutes later by 100mg DMT has been “just right” for me, without any nausea (and I’m very prone to nausea with pharma).

I agree that rue extracted alkaloids are not as pleasant as caapi alkaloids – I once took about 300mg of rue alkaloids and was ill for about 2 days. Not fun, not enlightening, and definitely not healing in any way. A similar dose of caapi alkaloids may seem less toxic, but it’s still no walk in the park.

I agree with what others said regarding adding DMT to the mix. There is a very positive synergy between caapi and DMT. Much more healing potential – an opportunity to face your subconscious in some very interesting ways.

If you want ego destruction without nausea try salvia. Salvia also has anti-depressant properties for many who use it responsibly.

Finally, let go of your expectations. They will stand in the way. There is an “intelligence” behind aya/pharma, and trust that you will get what you need.

Good luck and good health!

 

[embracethevoid]

If you are getting into that stoney monged headspace from harmalas, then taking more is not the answer.


The quality of these alkaloids is DIRECTLY dependent on mood. On MDMA, if you're tired, you're happy and buzzing. If you were happy and buzzing, you're now happy and buzzing. If you were angry... you're happy and buzzing.

But harmalas don't work this way. On harmala, you must work on your own mood. You must be your own PsychoTheRapist. They are a tool like the doctor's stethoscope. They shine light on internal sensations. But it is up to YOU to use the tool, in something like Insight meditation (Vipassana) otherwise your stethoscope is sitting on your desk gathering dust. It will not move of its own accord.


So if you take harmala when dull, expect more dullness. If you are angry, expect a slight amplification of that. BUT, and a big BUT, I cannot lie, if you work towards calm and contentment that dull buzz can so swiftly turn into ecstasy & wide awake stimulation that you will be raptured.


Now, this is where the Light comes into the picture. You see, the Power is always there. If you know how to channel the Power, you will always be able to induce your own ego-death, your own hyperspace, pixies, elves. You could call entities up to you and travel through worlds of your own accord. But can you put someone who's never flown a jet, at the helm of a space shuttle and expect much?


The Light makes everything very volatile. When you're super duper angry and nothing is happening around you, it's easy to keep being super duper angry. But imagine if every time you became super angry or super depressed, your immediate environment turned into demonic hell but quickly turned into heaven when you calmed down. You would very quickly find a way to stay calm, if not for heaven then at least to keep hell away! And that's how the Light nudges you in the direction of being your own therapist.


Strongest recommendation: DO NOT take tryptamines more than once or twice a week, especially if consistently on MAOIs throughout - This will cause manic psychosis and it will not be pretty and may give long-term brain damage



Also, can you please expound on your Rue Cold Water Extraction technique?

 

[gibran2]

Strongest recommendation: DO NOT take tryptamines more than once or twice a week, especially if consistently on MAOIs throughout - This will cause manic psychosis and it will not be pretty and may give long-term brain damage.

I’ve never seen any studies even remotely suggesting that ayahuasca causes brain damage.


Source?

 

[Global]

Harmalas are like the cave but without the tryptamine torch it might not be a very illuminating journey in the way that your looking for

It's funny that you put it like that because that's how I've interpreted caapi to be myself. When I would smoke it alone, I would get what I described as a "cave" for the DMT visuals. It provided the space, but no real content. To the OP, I'd have to side with everyone else in terms of adding the tryptamine element. It seems like the kind of experience you're seeking is more from DMT and less from harmalas (though I realize your primary motive is for relieving depression).

 

[embracethevoid]

Strongest recommendation: DO NOT take tryptamines more than once or twice a week, especially if consistently on MAOIs throughout - This will cause manic psychosis and it will not be pretty and may give long-term brain damage.

I’ve never seen any studies even remotely suggesting that ayahuasca causes brain damage.


Source?

It's not a direct effect of either MAOI or DMT and it is NOT specific to any individual chemical. It is an effect of being in mania, which is directly inducible with Ayahuasca. The same applies for ANY *active* hallucinogen. By active hallucinogen I mean a substance which forcibly promotes psychedelia like LSD, DMT, mescaline, cannabis etc. Compared to passive trips like Rue/Caapi.

Having these substances floating around without getting broken down for weeks will directly induce psychotic mania. The state of mania is exceedingly taxing on the brain and certain types of neurons get destroyed during it (GAD67 - glutamate decarboxylase being one type I know of).

 

[gibran2]

Having these substances floating around without getting broken down for weeks will directly induce psychotic mania. The state of mania is exceedingly taxing on the brain and certain types of neurons get destroyed during it (GAD67 - glutamate decarboxylase being one type I know of).

Please provide a source for this.

You’re claiming that ayahuasca can lead (perhaps indirectly) to brain damage. That’s quite a claim.

I’ve never read anything suggesting that frequent aya use leads to mania leads to brain damage. Where did you get this information?

 

[alkan0id]

Strongest recommendation: DO NOT take tryptamines more than once or twice a week, especially if consistently on MAOIs throughout - This will cause manic psychosis and it will not be pretty and may give long-term brain damage

That is worrying. Long-term brain damage from spice? I thought ayahuasca (with spice) was safe to drink daily for life? What you say about harmalas requiring manual effort sort of fits with the need for light to show what's going on. It's much easier to interact with the trip when you can actually see. I once had a very deep, visual trip on 20g of caapi powder (yes, eaten raw - NEVER doing that again) with chocolate and just a tiny amount of chaliponga - maybe 0.2 grams. The cocoa really potentiates everything.

I'm never in an angry mood before I take harmalas. Just a neutral "let's take harmalas and see what happens" mood. You mentioned in another thread the important of abstinence from sexual stimulation for getting the super powers from harmalas (sort of related to dieta), but I have since discovered what a powerful and important tool this is even on its own. Doing this, I have dug deeper and uncovered more pain in a month than I found with aya in six. So now I think I will get more out of aya by combining both. My main worry is the powerful aphrodisiac and vasodilatory nature of harmalas might compromise my resolve, if you catch my drift...

To be honest, I only got super duper yields from cold extraction when dealing with very small amounts of rue (25g). This was when I was first learning extraction and didn't want to waste a lot of plant material on mistakes (of which I made many initially). When I scaled it up to 50g using the same amount of water, the yield dropped off considerably. It was then that I was looking at my seeds sitting in the funnel taking hours to filter that I got the bright idea that such filtering isn't so different from a THP, and that the long filtration times could perhaps be used to my benefit simply by pouring more water through. It ceased to be a cold water extraction at this point...

(1) ORIGINAL COLD WATER METHOD (for 25g *powdered* rue)

Add 25g of powdered rue to a sealable screw-top plastic or glass bottle (plastic is safer for shaking) and pour in 300ml of 3% acetic acid solution, or FASW (at room temperature that would mean about 1.5 grams of fumaric acid - you'll have to heat the water to dissolve the acid, so yeah it's not such a cold extraction if you don't use vinegar.) Close the bottle and shake it all up and leave for 24 hours. That's an arbitrary time period - I suspect 24 seconds may be enough judging by the colour of the water when the rue has settled. When your bottle is completely settled, gently pour through a cone coffee filter in a funnel with the bottom edge folded over into your recepticle jar. Try to keep as many solids as possible in the bottle. Then reload the bottle with another 300ml of your favorite acidic water. Once the filtering is mostly done, you can scoop up the rue mush with a teaspoon and dump it back in the bottle with the rest. Leave another 24 hours. Repeat a third time the next day. Use the following colour guide to tell how well you have depleted the plant material:

Yellow/light orange = you've pretty much pulled everything by now, and can throw away the seeds and proceed to the next step. Mid/deep Orange = Good but there's still more to pull, red = absolutely loaded with harmala salts. Your first pull should look like this, but not the second.

Base as usual with lye solution. Filter the freebase through a basket-style coffee filter (these are just perfect for this) then put under a lamp flattened until it is completely dry. Crumble off your (probably dirty) freebase into a small plastic bottle (I have a couple without a tapered neck, perfect for this job) and slowly add vinegar while stirring/mashing the f/b with a spoon. It's better to use hot vinegar since this dissolves the f/b immediately, but it can still be done at room temperature with patience and a lot of stirring. Use the minimum amount of vinegar required to completely dissolve the f/b, then top it up with water. Filter again through a cone-style coffee filter and throw away the dirt that collects in the filter. You should be left with a lovely red solution that you can then base out, filter again (with basket style filter paper) All that's left to do now is pH neutralising. I haven't perfected this step yet, but I'm guessing the best way is to again dry it out completely then mix with plenty of water and filter again. TIP: During the second basing, if you keep the first basket style filter used for the first basing, and put it underneath your new filter to make two layers, this drastically reduces the amount of f/b lost through the filter.

(2) ADAPTED "THP" METHOD (3.5g harmalas from 50g rue)

Add your 50g of powdered rue to a plastic (HDPE or PP, needs to be heat-tolerant plastic) bottle and pour in 400ml of boiling (the hotter, the better) FASW. I'm unsure how much fumaric acid is best, this needs more experimentation. You can dissolve a lot more of it in hot water than you can at room temperature, so go nuts if you want. Shake up the bottle taking care not to burn your hands and leave for a few hours or maybe 24 hours, taking care not to shake or agitate the bottle at all for a few hours prior to filtering. Filter as before, this time making sure to empty the whole bottle into the filter, seeds and all. After perhaps many hours the acidic water should have filtered through into your collection jar, leaving a big moist deposit of rue mush in your filter, which should have a nice flat level top.

Then pour boiling FASW, perhaps only 250ml at a time (basically this is dependent on the capacity of your filter/funnel) onto the rue mush. I have no capacity for reduction, so what I did when my jar (~1.5l) got full was base out what I had with lye, allowed it to settle, then poured off (syphon would be much better) the excess basic water and discarded it, then poured the next load of FASW through the filter into that, until the jar was full again, then topped up with lye again to increase the pH. It was a messy, imprecise process that could probably be made much simpler by really loading that initial boiling water with fumaric acid. You should need a lot less water then and might not have to go through all the above described nonsense. Filtering yielded 5 grams of dirty f/b which I cleaned up to 3.56g of biege full spectrum freebase harmalas. 7.12% - Thanks to Maya and their quality stock.

 

[embracethevoid]

Having these substances floating around without getting broken down for weeks will directly induce psychotic mania. The state of mania is exceedingly taxing on the brain and certain types of neurons get destroyed during it (GAD67 - glutamate decarboxylase being one type I know of).

Please provide a source for this.

You’re claiming that ayahuasca can lead (perhaps indirectly) to brain damage. That’s quite a claim.

I’ve never read anything suggesting that frequent aya use leads to mania leads to brain damage. Where did you get this information?

It is well established in the last century that hallucinogens create a state analogous to psychosis. They are also known as psychotomimetics for that very reason.

Ayahuasca (caapi alone) cannot lead to psychosis intrinsically. The effect arises from continual dosing of hallucinogenic substances independent of the substance. If these substances remain in the body, they actively 'disrupt' neurotransmission, a pleasant disruption when it's day 0 hr 4 but it can cause a kerfuffle when it's week 6 day 8 hr 10 of continual 5HT-2 activation.


This is no different to psychosis induced by amphetamine-like stimulants, dissociatives like ketamine or even alcohol/benzo withdrawal. The psychosis is NOT induced directly by the substance AFAIK but due to the long-term effects of being in a trip state chronically. Hence the (highly debateable) correlation between marijuana and schizophrenia. Do you need a source when simple logic and observation suffices?


There is a HUGE difference between 'frequent aya use' which you are talking about and chronic MAO inhibition + tryptamines in the system which is what OP is talking about. The prior is nearly entirely harmless and very cleansing while the latter will induce psychotic mania. This mania will be temporary in healthy individuals but in psychosis-susceptible individuals, an endogenous psychosis can be triggered meaning that when the substance is removed, the person carries on in that state long after ingestion. Look at Erowid's "Train Wrecks & Disasters" trip report sections.

You hear of many being committed to mental asylums for this very reason, that they irresponsibly dosed on hallucinogens continually to the point where they lost touch with reality. Often this is caused by poly-substance use, which causes a serious ruckus in the body. As you well know and are aware of, most psychonauts tend not to use one substance but use many as the mood fits. This is a recipe for disaster if it goes off the rails.



This danger is a real danger no matter what drug is involved. The notion that ayahuasca is harmless is not really a helpful notion, it is like sticking your head in the sand oblivious to the sandstorm. When MAO is inhibited for a long period of time (i.e. longer than 1 week, which is what would happen with continual dosing of harmala alkaloids), there is major potential for any monoaminergic substances to accumulate and cause reactions. Frequent ayahuasca use still involves integration and part of that integration is returning to homeostasis. If homeostasis is not returned to, you can guess the rest.


Of course when you think of "brain damage" you might think of a stroke victim or someone with parkinsons or Olney's lesions, but that is not quite what I mean. The damage of a psychosis is semi-reversible but do you want to be out of life for a couple of years just because you didn't give yourself a couple of days rest the one time?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

It is well established in the last century that hallucinogens create a state analogous to psychosis. They are also known as psychotomimetics for that very reason.

Source? Afaik, quite the opposite has been established. There have been several anthropological studies showing clear differentiation between psychosis (such as schizophrenia) and states of altered consciousness induced by hallucinogen use. Here's one paper on just that.

Ayahuasca (caapi alone) cannot lead to psychosis intrinsically. The effect arises from continual dosing of hallucinogenic substances independent of the substance. If these substances remain in the body, they actively 'disrupt' neurotransmission...

Source? Also, what are you defining as continual dosing?

This is no different to psychosis induced by amphetamine-like stimulants, dissociatives like ketamine or even alcohol/benzo withdrawal. The psychosis is NOT induced directly by the substance AFAIK but due to the long-term effects of being in a trip state chronically. Hence the (highly debateable) correlation between marijuana and schizophrenia. Do you need a source when simple logic and observation suffices?

Yes, I would like a source for this, as you are equating the psychological effects from "amphetamine-like stimulants, dissociatives like ketamine or even alcohol/benzo" with those from ayahuasca. If true, this is groundbreaking news, afaik.

There is a HUGE difference between 'frequent aya use' which you are talking about and chronic MAO inhibition + tryptamines in the system which is what OP is talking about. The prior is nearly entirely harmless and very cleansing while the latter will induce psychotic mania

I have dosed myself and my partner daily at higher daily doses than presented by the OP, for both therapeutic and "recreational" reasons, over extended periods of time. My experiences (and observations of my partner's experiences) directly contradict your statements.

This mania will be temporary in healthy individuals but in psychosis-susceptible individuals, an endogenous psychosis can be triggered meaning that when the substance is removed, the person carries on in that state long after ingestion. Look at Erowid's "Train Wrecks & Disasters" trip report sections.

Can you provide a source beyond your interpretation of unspecified Erowid trip reports?

You hear of many being committed to mental asylums for this very reason, that they irresponsibly dosed on hallucinogens continually to the point where they lost touch with reality.

Do we? I haven't...and therefore would challenge this assertion.

Often this is caused by poly-substance use, which causes a serious ruckus in the body. As you well know and are aware of, most psychonauts tend not to use one substance but use many as the mood fits. This is a recipe for disaster if it goes off the rails.

This seems like a fairly vague/amorphous claim.

This danger is a real danger no matter what drug is involved. The notion that ayahuasca is harmless is not really a helpful notion, it is like sticking your head in the sand oblivious to the sandstorm.

I have not seen anyone assert that ayahuasca is harmless...only challenge your assertion that "chronic" (read: daily?) use of harmalas "will directly induce psychotic mania."

Can you provide any scientific evidence for this claim?

 

[universecannon]

"Strongest recommendation: DO NOT take tryptamines more than once or twice a week, especially if consistently on MAOIs throughout - This will cause manic psychosis and it will not be pretty and may give long-term brain damage"

This is complete BS. Many of us, and many in the amazon, have taken full ayahuasca brews everynight for sometimes a week or more straight. I've also taken aya, or pharma, twice a week for several months and never entered "manic psychosis"

Even if it has happened to a couple of people (which i haven't seen any evidence for or cases of this with aya), it would still be incredibly misleading and silly to go around claiming that "this WILL cause that if you do it" in such an absolutist manner

Harmalas are like the cave but without the tryptamine torch it might not be a very illuminating journey in the way that your looking for

It's funny that you put it like that because that's how I've interpreted caapi to be myself. When I would smoke it alone, I would get what I described as a "cave" for the DMT visuals. It provided the space, but no real content. To the OP, I'd have to side with everyone else in terms of adding the tryptamine element. It seems like the kind of experience you're seeking is more from DMT and less from harmalas (though I realize your primary motive is for relieving depression).

Yeah its definitely a great metaphor. I've heard it a bunch of places but i'm not sure who coined it. It might have been some indigenous practitioners. The also often refer to caapi as the force and chacruna as the light

In some ways that might be a better metaphor, since the cave one does fall short at explaining how bizarre and visual the cave alone can get at very high doses in silent darkness (OBEs, UFOs pulling me out of my body, giant rolling amaringo-esque idea complexes growing and shifting into the visual spectrum, etc lol). Don't want to derail the thread too much but harmalas to me are most interesting in how they uniquely tranceform the actual architecture of thought itself and manifest this auto-poetic hyperspatial (nonlocal?) imagination. If i was short, green, and had pointy ears, i'd say strong with them the force is

 

[jamie]

"Strongest recommendation: DO NOT take tryptamines more than once or twice a week, especially if consistently on MAOIs throughout - This will cause manic psychosis and it will not be pretty and may give long-term brain damage"

Source?

Keep making blanket statements like that that you cant back up and you will enjoy a vacation. I took harmalas every day and drank full brews with DMT 2 sometimes 3 times a week and sometimes smoked also for a year. I dont have brain damage.

Also the old idea that psychedelics produce states analagous to psychotic/schizophrenic states is one that is crumbing. It is not as well supported as it used to be and is loosing adherants.

 

[smokerx]

I dont have brain damage.

Are you sure :surprised They - :shock: all say ,people locked in those houses, that there is nothing wrong with them :surprised

Lets get serious now: Embracethevoid I would like to also see some sources to your statements can you provide them ?

 

[The Traveler]

Strongest recommendation: DO NOT take tryptamines more than once or twice a week, especially if consistently on MAOIs throughout - This will cause manic psychosis and it will not be pretty and may give long-term brain damage

Backup this claim with reliable source or do not make such a claim at all.

The DMT-Nexus is not a place to drop ones ideas as facts without backing them up with reliable data. If you cannot provide this data then I highly recommend that you openly revoke your claim.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Jin]

Strongest recommendation: DO NOT take tryptamines more than once or twice a week, especially if consistently on MAOIs throughout - This will cause manic psychosis and it will not be pretty and may give long-term brain damage

embrace i understand the manic psychosis you're talking about is not new to you , have you looked into other factors that could be causing this

 

[embracethevoid]

Strongest recommendation: DO NOT take tryptamines more than once or twice a week, especially if consistently on MAOIs throughout - This will cause manic psychosis and it will not be pretty and may give long-term brain damage

Backup this claim with reliable source or do not make such a claim at all.

The DMT-Nexus is not a place to drop ones ideas as facts without backing them up with reliable data. If you cannot provide this data then I highly recommend that you openly revoke your claim.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

It seems that words have caused a kerfuffle here. It is not my intention to do anything other than report my own observations, and make recommendations based on these. I come in peace and I leave in peace.




Now, what kind of source do you want? Would you agree that you are the best of sources, your own experience? Then let me present a simple challenge. As you well know, a key method of investigation is to exaggerate a particular facet of a system and observe the resultant changes. The exaggeration of the variable also exaggerates the effects of the change of variable.



In this case, I would provide a simple methodology to be tested, not over the space of a mere 1-4 weeks but over the space of six months.

1.) Dose harmala every day, continually to point of full enzyme inhibition. [Remember, we are exaggerating things to manifest a specific effect]
2.) Take a tryptamine substance, whether threshold dose, subthreshold, or macrodose, twice a week, every week without fail. Keeping MAO-I constant.

Very simple! Now what I observe under this protocol is a gradual accumulation of psychedelic features into reality. After 4 weeks of this protocol I could no longer call myself 'sober' in any way, shape or form. At a minimum I would be at a ++ state. All the classical symptoms of psychosis displayed themselves, primarily positive symptoms (DMT makes for a good nootropic! ). The effect remained for up to two weeks subsequent to cessation of all substance intake. What does that suggest?

Also there was a very distinct and recognizable indole/tryptamine-like smell which I would be sweating out this entire two week cessation phase, reducing in direct correlation with the tapering away of psychedlia. Does anybody know what this is?



There is a huge difference between what you guys are talking about, and the protocol I am talking about. We are not at disagreement, if you will to see it.

If you dose in such a way that you return to normality always, no psychedelia can build up.


Now, as psychedelic research is heavily stifled, especially so on human subjects, I am not quite sure how you propose that I deliver a source? If you can provide me lines of research to explore I'm sure I could dig up a few things. But as far as I know there have never been any controlled trials of long-term enzyme inhibition in simultaneity with psychedelic administration. I am pretty sure such studies would get the researchers locked up for crimes against humanity.



Why I am delivering this warning is thus. People do not all follow the same protocol. You guys are experienced with ayahuasca and admixtures and you know when to cycle off. A naive person might, as I did once, dose continually and repeatedly in hopes of eradicating depression much like OP. This is a recipe for disaster.

Everyone here knows MAOI+wrong substance = death. But NOT EVERYONE knows this. My FOAF recently died due to mixing ayahuasca with some strong tryptaminergic RC, unaware of the serotonergic effects of the latter.

As regulars on this forum, you are in what I like to call the 'Clue-Zone' regarding ayahuasca. You all have a clue, you know what to watch out for, you know what is stupid and dangerous and you know to avoid it. But this is a big world with many people, some who know a lot and some who know nothing. Some bodies can take it, some bodies cannot. So I hope you can appreciate the serious gamble.


Especially when you recommend someone who is severely depressed to administer multiple hallucinogenic substances. Someone who is in extreme pain, perhaps like OP but definitely like myself, that someone might move to extreme measures. So I am only here to keep people aware of the sheer extremeties. I do not have human energy to address each and every complaint here and many of the threads of conversation would be spurious due to misinterpretation & communication noise effects.

E.g.

I have not seen anyone assert that ayahuasca is harmless...only challenge your assertion that "chronic" (read: daily?) use of harmalas "will directly induce psychotic mania."

This statement is something I have never made. I have been MAO-A inhibited since December for what it is worth.

But where this would all lead to eventually, keeping in mind the 7 billion people with 7 billion differently operating physiologies, nutritions, mindsets, etc, is this:

embrace i understand the manic psychosis you're talking about is not new to you , have you looked into other factors that could be causing this

And yes, I have looked into other factors. The runaway psychotic cascade effect that can be triggered in susceptible individuals is in my present understanding, the result of these factors:

* Various nutritional deficiencies
* Allergenic response/toxic overload, heavy metal poisoning
* Inflammation in the brain & nervous system
* Chronic anxiety/depression
* Sleep deprivation
* Polysubstance abuse (the straw that broke the camel's back) [MAOI+tryptamine is still polysubstance, keep in mind]

I have talked to, lived with and otherwise observed many many people who have gone through psychosis and essentially, this is the recipe I observe in each and every individual who has experienced it.

When I say runaway psychotic cascade, I mean that I have observed that there appears to be a tipping threshold beyond which the mechanism of psychosis is activated and unstoppably so. Then removal of all MAOIs, hallucinogens and otherwise will not do anything. At this point, the person must be taken under professional care.

Life is a flow, it is not static. You do not wake up every day, eat 250.5g of toast with 30g butter then drink 450ml of water at 20*C with such rigour. Life HAPPENS, life HITS YOU and life can cause a ruckus. Someone who is chronically tryptamine-activated is much more susceptible to any of the aforementioned factors and quadruply so if they are genetically susceptible to psychosis.


Now, I appreciate the threat of removal if I do not post a source, please point me in the direction of the fairy land where I might obtain such a study. Or perhaps you would also appreciate the difficulty of what you ask me for. I can only present what I know and observe, the synopsis of a psychonaut's travels, and nothing more. The papers could not exist due to law, as far as I am aware, so what do you really want?

I will not revoke my claim for to revoke it would be to create a falsehood and I am not here to succumb to any tyrannous desires but I may modify it a little so as to render it more peaceable:

Strongest recommendation: DO NOT take tryptamines more than once or twice a week, especially if consistently on MAOIs throughout - This [MAY] cause manic psychosis [IN MY OBSERVATION] and [IF IT HAPPENS] it will not be pretty and may give long-term brain damage

I know DMT to be the safest of psychedelics and in fact pretty much all psychoactive drugs for that matter, but I am not going to ignore what happened to myself and many others I have had contact with. These are very real dangers and just because they have not happened around you does not mean they do not exist.

Peace!

 

[jamie]

"I have been MAO-A inhibited since December for what it is worth."

Why? Seems like your just hurting yourself if you have these mental problems and continue to do that to yourself when you yourself are claiming it can cause mental problems. It has also been clear by now based on other posts that you have a crazy tolerane now to harmalas and you obviousily dont even get the full effect. Why not just stop taking so much harmalas every single day?

I just dont understand it. Cant you just dose them less and spend time integrating any of it? Are you psychologically addicted to doing this or something? Seems that you are just the root of the problems you describe here.

You know that constant NMDA activity like that can possibly give you certain deficiencies right? Harmalas seem pretty safe..even with frequent large doses and daily microdoses..drinking full doses for days at a time etc..but taking huge doses every single day for months or longer? I think that is naive and in your case sounds like it might fit the description of abuse.

 

[embracethevoid]

Actually my friend this self-experiment I ran three years ago. I no longer suffer from any mental issues whatsoever. In fact I do not suffer in life as a whole at all, pretty much nada. These 'illnesses' arise from specific conditions; when these conditions are removed, they have no way to arise and consequently cease. Likewise for all suffering, remove the conditions for it to arise and it cannot arise at all. How to enter when there is no door?

A man in a warzone is weak and fleshy. A man in an empty space where bullets do not exist is invincible as regards bullets! Or more aptly, one way to dodge bullets is to fight them head on a la Neo in the Matrix. The other way is to make sure not a single bullet is pointed at you, can be pointed at you, or will be pointed at you. So to abide in good health, renders one impregnable to disease of all kinds as it simply cannot find a way in.


No, I am not hurting myself. I have long long healed, having ceased exploration of all substances for a two year period of full integration, chakra tuning, the works. Everything is fully stable, Microcosmic orbit open and circling, all feels great, not merely great but amazing, Divine and to the Self I am grateful and appreciative.


Harmalas have many more uses than anti-depressants. They illuminate water/breath/magnetism. I use them in my entheogenic exploration hence the high doses. The last few months I've cultivated a kind of musical moving meditation, I live and breathe a sound bath in full symbiosis with Rue/Aya. It really helps for this; tolerance does not influence anything with this regard. Essentially I'm exploring the internal cymatics of the body-mind and I'll be damned if it isn't fruitful! Harmala on its own, even in high doses is IME totally harmless but again one must take due care to safety or face... death. Yes, I am foolhardy, very foolhardy, reckless. That I have accepted as a facet of myself, been like so since childhool. But I'm past the point of doing things carelessly. Big difference between careless and foolhardy!



I am very interested to hear about the NMDA activity induced deficiencies, can you please expound?

 

[xtianchavez]

Hello, I am writing to share about the first time I tried dmt ayahuasca, the experience was great, I could see and feel what many people always try to explain and I could never understand, but since that first time I tried it I knew dmt ayahuasca had to do with my life.
I moved to live in the jungles of Peru, close with shamans ayahuasca rituals made here in Peru.
what I've been able to bring in these rituals is the way to ingest, shamans rituals drinking ayahuasca preparation, I do not like this way, I have extracted dmt from ayahuasca in order to be able to smoke and spiritual experience is always the same.
if you want to live the spiritual experience contact me at dmtbufotenina@gmail.com