please recommend a chem book

[flyboy]

I'd say it's about time swim stops working blindly... all this talk of polar, nonpolar, salts, alkaloids, base, ph, swim is not the type of person who can go on without understanding what the heck he's doing. I understand rome wasn't built in a day, but is there a standard chem book that would get a layman out of the fog?

Is there a general area of study we are talking about here or is this this all just the most basic chem 101,102 type of stuff?

or allow me to ask from the other direction: What are the most difficult parts about following chemistry directions for example, at the level of Shulgins?

 

[acolon_5]

Good for you!

Everything I learned was either in high school chem or from countless hours of reading online. I too would like to find out a good book to get a psuedo-kitchen chemist a little more knowledge about chemistry. I really should just go back to school for a few semesters to get a little organic chemistry under my belt.

 

[Infundibulum]

I had a similar thought lately, basically starting a topic where people could ask basic chemistry questions and other people could answer in as much as possible simple and understandable manner. Many chemistry concepts feel all-too-familiar to some but on the other hand others do not actually grasp what for instance a salt, acid, or base are. Same goes for terms like pH, pKa, weak acids, weak bases, conjugate acid/bases, titration, polar and non polar solvent, oxidation, reduction etc. etc.

I would assume however that if anyone has questions regarding such topics can just do some reading on the internet as acolon suggested. But on the other hand, it is very handy for other people to ask further explanations on a given topic should they have already read an explanation. This is certainly something that one cannot do when reading a book or a webpage.

I propose we start one topic (maybe a totally new section in the first page of the forum?) and I have not problem explaining what an acid, a base a salt and their inter-relationships are in as simple terms as possible.

 

[acolon_5]

I had a similar thought lately, basically starting a topic where people could ask basic chemistry questions and other people could answer in as much as possible simple and understandable manner. Many chemistry concepts feel all-too-familiar to some but on the other hand others do not actually grasp what for instance a salt, acid, or base are. Same goes for terms like pH, pKa, weak acids, weak bases, conjugate acid/bases, titration, polar and non polar solvent, oxidation, reduction etc. etc.

I would assume however that if anyone has questions regarding such topics can just do some reading on the internet as acolon suggested. But on the other hand, it is very handy for other people to ask further explanations on a given topic should they have already read an explanation. This is certainly something that one cannot do when reading a book or a webpage.

I propose we start one topic (maybe a totally new section in the first page of the forum?) and I have not problem explaining what an acid, a base a salt and their inter-relationships are in as simple terms as possible.

I like this idea a lot. I can start a sticky in general discussions, "Basic Chemistry Explained in Layman’s Terms” or something like that. (suggestions would be welcome)

Ronue, you said you would be willing to help explain some of these things?

Please note: If this thread is created there cannot be discussion about synthesis of illegal or quasi-legal chemicals or precursors.

 

[Infundibulum]

I'm pretty willing to explain, as soon as the topic is created! There will be no synthesis topics of course, just explanation of terms people use, possibly drawing examples from well known alkaloid extractions where appropriate.

Every person should understand that synthesis is a very very dangerous and easy-to-go-wrong process that requires a proper chemistry lab to be done correctly. As such it is totally off the hands of laymen. I hardly think that anyone would be carry away those chemistry tutorials and think "OK, now I cans synthesise some good stuff"! Equally likely everyone should refuse to answer in questions like "can you explain how to decarboxylate tryptophan?". More appropriate questions would be "why alkaloids are in freebase form in basic solutions?"

 

[benzyme]

I'll help explain also; part of what makes this such a great board is the collaborative effort.

the standard for o. chem is Vogel's Practical Organic Chemistry, though it's pretty old.

here's that one, and a more modern text..

 

[acolon_5]

I'm pretty willing to explain, as soon as the topic is created! There will be no synthesis topics of course, just explanation of terms people use, possibly drawing examples from well known alkaloid extractions where appropriate.

Excellent. I am creating a stick in Extractions as I think this might be the most appropriate place for this type of discussion.

Every person should understand that synthesis is a very very dangerous and easy-to-go-wrong process that requires a proper chemistry lab to be done correctly. As such it is totally off the hands of laymen.

I couldn't agree more. I might also add that 3 years of college chemistry is a really good place to start before thinking about doing a complex synthesis.

I hardly think that anyone would be carry away those chemistry tutorials and think "OK, now I cans synthesise some good stuff"!

You'd be supprised. I've seen many a-question about a complex synthesis right next to "can I subsititue these vitamin c tabs for reagent grade H2SO4" Makes me shiver at the thought of some kid's house turning into a giant smoking hole in the ground.

 

[Infundibulum]

You'd be supprised. I've seen many a-question about a complex synthesis right next to "can I subsititue these vitamin c tabs for reagent grade H2SO4" Makes me shiver at the thought of some kid's house turning into a giant smoking hole in the ground.

No way! But it is a good question from the point of view that it actually questions why H2SO4 has to be used while vitamin C cannot. It's always an oversimplified point of view that drives those questions (they're both acids, so they can substitute each other, right?)

Well, it should be made clear that all the information given is suited for EXTRACTIONS ONLY (in which case, yes H2SO4 can be substituted with vitamin C).

 

[acolon_5]

You'd be supprised. I've seen many a-question about a complex synthesis right next to "can I subsititue these vitamin c tabs for reagent grade H2SO4" Makes me shiver at the thought of some kid's house turning into a giant smoking hole in the ground.

No way! But it is a good question from the point of view that it actually questions why H2SO4 has to be used while vitamin C cannot. It's always an oversimplified point of view that drives those questions (they're both acids, so they can substitute each other, right?)

Well, it should be made clear that all the information given is suited for EXTRACTIONS ONLY (in which case, yes H2SO4 can be substituted with vitamin C).

Good point. It was only an example off the top of my head. A better actual example I read on DF was posted by someone asking where they can purchase lithium aluminum hydride with cash or mail order COD. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: If I remember correctly he had read this was something he needed for a synth he had found on Rhodium (or The Hive, I don't remember anymore). Unfortunately he was unable to use a CC since his mom wouldn't let him get one (turned out he was like 16).

I'm just saying is all! Sorry for hijacking flyboys thread and getting so far off topic.

 

[flyboy]

OK how about i start with a question that we obviously need to get out of the way...What exactly is synthesis and why is it taboo after this? _

My guess is it is simply taking something extracted, or a base chemical, and then altering it's structure (somehow!? How?) to create something not found (yet) in nature, but why is that any worse when wonderful things such as lsd and mdma have been created this way? I'm not gonna lie i'd give the next 9 months of hobby time to give birth to even a 1g of any baby with the first name of 2C.

Ok, here's a better one: How the heck do people determine the % of dmt in a plant, and how can we determine the % of any alkaloid or molecule within any plant. For example, if I were to start buying strange plants from a south american importer, where would I begin in disecting it's potential entheogenic content.

Is there a way to scan a plant for known trympatmines and phenos?

Is there a way to scan for tryptos or phenos that HAVEN't been discovered yet?

 

[benzyme]

talking about synthesis is taboo, because like Eleusis put it, "the chemist is at the top of the food chain".
but yeah, it's essentially doing in the lab what enzymes do in the body...converting compounds into active compounds.

%age of DMT in a plant can be found by running GC/LC-MS and comparing the results(assuming the system is validated) against standards.

new compounds are found by the equipment (analytical).. learn about the machines. search: mass spectrometry, x-ray crystallography, and nuclear magnetic resonance for starters

 

[benzyme]

You'd be supprised. I've seen many a-question about a complex synthesis right next to "can I subsititue these vitamin c tabs for reagent grade H2SO4" Makes me shiver at the thought of some kid's house turning into a giant smoking hole in the ground.

No way! But it is a good question from the point of view that it actually questions why H2SO4 has to be used while vitamin C cannot. It's always an oversimplified point of view that drives those questions (they're both acids, so they can substitute each other, right?)

Well, it should be made clear that all the information given is suited for EXTRACTIONS ONLY (in which case, yes H2SO4 can be substituted with vitamin C).

H2SO4
a) strong acid.. smim tested JT Baker conc. sulfuric, pH ~0.3-0.6
b) strong oxidizer
c) leeches water

swim once used it to distill tech grade nitric to red fuming nitric (70% --> ~90%)

 

[Reborn]

Just my 2 cents.
For learning chemistry there is a reason colleges teach chemistry in this order.
1) General
2) Organic
3) Analytical
4) Inorganic
5) P Chem

Chemistry as everything builds on itself.
While I agree with benzyme that those are good organic books if you really have never had college level general chem. you should first start with a general chemistry book. A good organic book is going to assume a whole year of knowledge. Go through them in this order and you can teach yourself just about everything you need, for this stuff you can stop at analytical. Go through a general analytical textbook for fun or if you want to identify new/novel compounds or just want to quantify something you already know is there; but of course there the problem is, you need expensive instruments. All the instruments benzyme mentioned general start at 50-100K for old used ones. But that is what you really need to quantify/discover small molecules from plants. Wonderful world of natural products/metabolomics, massive field in chemistry right now.

Beyond that though instrumental analytical chemistry takes years of practice in a lab, like synthesis your going to lost without training, but much less dangerous. Mass specs generally don't blow up your house, though the RF coil inside some of them could fry your ass if you were dumb enough to touch them while on.

So anyway I suggest to start at the beginning, buy a cheap used general chem book. There is no difference between a brand new shinny $200 chem book for freshman chemistry or the one they used 10 years ago you can find on the used book shelf for $10. You would be amazed how much good old text books are at used books stores in campus towns. Anyway good reading.

 

[1shot2]

I learned by practising,reading ,reading.Synthesis is alot trickier imo as you are starting from scratchand assembling pieces,whereas extractions you are taking out from a plant what is already there.I give chemists like shulgan or any one else who can synthesis or puts forth the effort involved in advancing this sport we call molecular science mad props for doing so.It all boils down to common sense ,It can get cryptic that is where critical thinking is applied.