Polyrhythms bra

[PrimateSphinx]

hey nexus,
I know there are drum forums and stuff like that out there on the webz but I thought since all the cool people are here anyway and I assume some of you are good drummers might as well post this here. I've been wondering if any of you have any good techniques for playing and conceptualizing polyrhythms? I've got the basic ones down like 2 against 3 and three against 4 but and I have odd times down pretty well but I was wanting to start working on stuff like maybe 7 against 4 and 9 against 7 and weird stuff like that. The old Frank Zappa before he died was working with stuff like 13 against 17 polyrhythms and I doubt i could do anything like that but its still awesome. Also I thought it might be cool if all you fidgety drummers out there like myself have any other cool tricks up your sleeves that you might want to share. Like I said I know I could probably find this stuff elsewhere but I thought I'd put it here just in case any of you have figured out some crazy hyperspace polyrhythms or something like that . Anyway I doubt this thread will see much attention but for all you out there who like to beat things rhythmically to the point that it's become an obsessive compulsion. Answer my Call!!

 

[polytrip]

I also love polyrhythms. Polyrhythms are cool in ANY type of music. It can be used in rock&roll to make everything much more groovy, but it can also be used in classical music to make it flow more naturally.

In classical music, richard strauss is REALY the composer to listen to when you like polyrhythms. As a drummer you´d be surprised how different polyrhythms sound when used melodically and harmonically.

Unfortunately i don´t know much pop-music where it´s used, except zappa and vai. I would be interested if you knew some names.

In jazzmusic, everybody uses polyrhythms all the time.

Yeah, polyrhythms are cool indeed. Polyrhythms and dissonants are my two favorite musical elements.

 

[Felnik]

Learning and feeling the subdivisions of odd meter is the
Ticket . As in the case of 7/4 , subdividing 4&3 or 3&4 ,
In the case of 9 s feeling the 3 groupings .
The higher meters like 13 get tricky but with practice doable.
Check Louis bellson book on odd time excercises its great.

 

[polytrip]

I find it much more interesting, btw, to vary WITHIN the basic polyrhythms, than to rigidly perform complex polyrhythms.

3/2 for instance:
rigid form
!.......!.......!.......
!...........!...........
Variation
!...............!...!.!.
!...........!.....!..!.!

 

[polytrip]

It´s fascinating how incredibly versatile the use of polyrhythms is and what they can do to make music flow.

In kind of 'heavy' music where it boosts an incredible rhythmic power nine inch nails
Or in classical music where it can create an immense musical space (skip the intro and start listening at 04.00)richard strauss Or in popmusic where it stimulates the flow of the rhythmbrian wilson

 

[smri]

Nice! I have been fascinated with poly rhythms forever!

I like your approach about using smaller increments inside of a bigger concept which is where I say this idea of poly or multiple rhythms lie.
For example, I think 9/4 rarely exists just like 9 against 17 wouldn't really exist. I see it more about phrasing. If you can feel and hear a particular phrase in 9/4 then certainly it is in the 9 meter, but rarely is the phrasing used in a musical passage like this.

Most beats along these lines can be divided as either duple or triple in my opinion. So 7 usually becomes 3 plus 4 or vice versa. I believe this has to do with a lot of western harmony and beat conditioning of humanity over eons now. So although I'm not saying these complex beats aren't possible, I think that much of the poly stuff is academic bullsh!t.

However, it is all about the music and like I said if a particular passage feels in 9 it just may be.

I really like the song 'Saigon Na Bansan' by Mouse on the Keys. Although no complex odd time signatures, the use of common denominator and poly rhythms is some of the best I've heard; to musician and layman alike.

Are you mainly a percussionist polytrip?

 

[polytrip]

Wow...that´s a very good drummer on that mouse-on-the-keys video you mentioned.
I´m a piano-player myself.

 

[smri]

Yes; Akira is other-worldly. I highly recommend all of the Sezession EP. Prolly decent piano stuff too...I'm no pianist but I definitely like just about everything they do.

 

[PrimateSphinx]

cool stuff guys, definitely have some stuff to work on and reinvent my counting stylz. I like the stuff about deviding the larger meter into smaller segments to make it easier to count. It reminds me of an Aloke Dutta exercise that I had the pleasure of learning from the late great Mike Dillon that subdivides 4/4 into 5,7, or what ever odd meter you want to play in. The exercise basically has you clap in 4 with quarter notes and you divide the long quarter notes into 5s 7s or whatever. This exercise doesn't use polyrhythms per se but I think it would be cool to implement this type of counting into polyrhythms to maybe trick the ear into thinking that its listening to something more complex than it actually is. Any tabla players out there that know what i mean? oh yeah and It wouldn't be right to have a polyrhythm talk without mentioning how amazing danny carey is. That man is god on a drumkit

 

[smri]

Yes Carey is amazing; some serious limb dependence that is so subtle most don't get it. He actually wrote a small bit on his website once that I enjoyed and looked into even today. Carey apparently studied with a tabla player for some time that he attributes his innate timing to. I love much Indian music, especially that rooted in the Karnatic tradition.

They have a different approach; like traditionally only certain ragas (scales/modes) are played only during certain times of the day. And yes Sphinx, they have some messed up timing and concepts of timing too. For example- 14 1/2 over whatever macro is possible in their eastern traditions of music where for us it is a newer more modern concept to western harmony.
Side note: the tune '5 in the Morning, 6 in the Afternoon' by Remember Shakti (band w/John McLaughlin) is pretty cool. Directly relates to what we are talking about and M. Shrinivas seems to be possessed during his solo; powerful stuff from him.

Can you explain that process in more detail? I assume since you are subdividing the macro into odd times then there is no micro, like eighth notes? I think this approach sounds like a good learning tool, and yes possibly a nice 'trick'. Stuff that comes to mind is 'Hella'(band) when you talk about sub-dividing like this.

Can't believe I just noticed this part of the forum yesterday...

 

[PrimateSphinx]

Yeah Carey was taught by Aloke Dutta. Aloke teaches a lot of amazing musicians and drummers including Mike Dillon (Les Claypool's fancy band, the Dead Kenny G's, Garage a Trois) who as i mentioned before I had the extreme pleasure of getting an impromptu vibraphone and rhythm lesson with a while back and he dropped a very small amount of Dutta's knowledge on me, not enough unfortunately. I really wish I had more of an ear for all the subtleties that go on in indian music and percussion. But that type of counting is like eighth notes in that it subdividing the macro into odd times like eighth notes but in stead of counting eight you count five or seven or whatever over the main 4 quarter notes. I'm sure you could get really crazy with it if you were to have the main time be odd, say 5 for instance and then were to subdivide that the same way into 7s or 13s or whatever, but I'm no robot.

 

[ouro]

honestly its probably best to master the bembe wheel before really trying to utilize anything past 2 against 3.

 

[smri]

Yes that was his name...weird he also taught the first guy you mentioned. Sphinx are you mainly a percussionist? Just curious.

 

[Lichen]

This is all absolutely fascinating, I'm a little obsessed with polyrhythms and time signatures - I don't get so much into analysing them, nor trying to play them but I do love to count along and there's no better feeling when an uncertain time sig suddenly 'clicks'. I'd never listened to John McLaughlin before, for that I thank you!

I first got into different time signatures listening to The Dillinger Escape Plan but they don't touch on polyrhythms extensively.

 

[Xt]

/snare

I would listen to as much latin/african music as possible. Especially Djembe stuff coming out of Mali and Ghana. There really is nothing quite like listening and getting down for learning to feel rhythms. Also... count everything, how many bars till the chorus in that awefull pop song on the radio? Bah maybe you do this already. Sorry im not much help.

 

[Felnik]

here's some amazing use of odd meter , this guy is phenomenal

 

[PrimateSphinx]

Yes that was his name...weird he also taught the first guy you mentioned. Sphinx are you mainly a percussionist? Just curious.

yeah he teaches everybody... yeah I mainly play guitar and drums (kit and hand) but also play bass and vibraphone/marimba but I can't really practice vibes because I don't have access to any unfortunately. Vibes are a fun instrument.

 

[PrimateSphinx]

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, I want it, mandala pads are the shiznit. Thats some crazy jazz fusion stuff Felnik. God jazz fusion pisses me off sometimes. Especially because that particular drummer is doing all the crazy lead beat stuff with his left hand. Why can't i do that? the way fusion drummers set up there kits weirds me out too. Its all...on the left... ha and that bassist looks like benicio del toro

 

[smri]

Is that Carey's rig? Yours?

 

[PrimateSphinx]

that's Carey's, I would go nuts if that was mine. I play a little dinky (well dinky compared to that) Sonor 5 piece fusion kit. I want one of those mandala pads he has