Good stuff! I look forward to seeing this thread evolve!
We still have sooo much to learn about these magical plants.
We still have sooo much to learn about these magical plants.
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Poorly understood family of AYAHUASCA vines
- Thread starter BecometheOther
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Thanks for this post, Ill def want to contribute some here and see how this info develops 
One question though, can you quote a source for dmt content in that banisteriopsis leaf vs harmalas in vine?
One question though, can you quote a source for dmt content in that banisteriopsis leaf vs harmalas in vine?
Actually, the whole genus 'Banisteriopsis' is in the Malpighiaceae family...as is the genus 'Diplopterys'. As a result of taxonomic revisions, in 2006 a number of species were moved from from Banisteriopsis to Diplopterys.
This revision is the cause of at least one, imo, widespread misunderstanding on a few threads I saw at the ayahuasca forum, where it appears people think they are discussing two plants, but are in fact using an accepted name and a synonym of that name. They may really mean to be referencing two plants, but with the latin names they are using, they are only referring to one.
I've been meaning to put more work into actually creating a more solidified list of accepted names and synonyms based on the literature but I'm pretty crunched for time at the present. I was hoping to compile it and then upload it, but as this thread now exists, perhaps I'll just upload it piecemeal before compiling it.
A final note, as endlessness points out, the sources for much of this info are rather shaky. Ratsche published certain things (specifically on B. muricata and B. caapi) that are impossible to actually trace back to their source (in the case of the B. caapi varieties, it's a D. Mckenna lecture that no one has any evidence of and a topic and a name that were never published on or published as good varieties by D. Mckenna, raising numerous questions). However, despite the lack of solid grounding, the caapi info (and I believe the muricata info as well) have made it into numerous places (wikipedia, forums, etc) as fact.
As far as i know no analasis has been done on the b. muricata, or the alecia anisopetala. but i can quote several bio-essays from the forums.ayahuasca.com forum, as well as my own personal experiences with b. muricata and alecia anisoptetala.
In other words the conclusion was made that the leaves contain dmt and the vine contains harmalas based on experience reports from people experienced with harmalas and dmt including my own experiences.
Over on the ayahuasca forum it is now an accepted fact that there is vines which contain both the light and power, even though as far as i know there is no study to verify this.
We wil have to test the alecia and muricata ourselves to confirm or disprove the prescense of dmt in the leaves.
The alecia or oco yage however, has been selling as chaliponga for a long time now, with no complaints, I think that alone is testament to its tryptamine bearing nature...
Thanks guys looking very much forward to seeing this unfold, and it is important we seek the truth here! If i am wrong on any point, i will be the first to admit it and seek to find the real truth.
im sure we will discover fascinating things!
In other words the conclusion was made that the leaves contain dmt and the vine contains harmalas based on experience reports from people experienced with harmalas and dmt including my own experiences.
Over on the ayahuasca forum it is now an accepted fact that there is vines which contain both the light and power, even though as far as i know there is no study to verify this.
We wil have to test the alecia and muricata ourselves to confirm or disprove the prescense of dmt in the leaves.
The alecia or oco yage however, has been selling as chaliponga for a long time now, with no complaints, I think that alone is testament to its tryptamine bearing nature...
Thanks guys looking very much forward to seeing this unfold, and it is important we seek the truth here! If i am wrong on any point, i will be the first to admit it and seek to find the real truth.
im sure we will discover fascinating things!
You guys are right, all the info is shakey.
The info i have presented here i believe not to be shaky but to be much closer to the truth than most aya info out there.
Please understand I am not using wishful thinking to project these things because "i want" there to be some magical ayahuasca or something...
What i mean to say is what i have said i have based of facts and research from very intelligent and experienced people much older and wiser than myself. That is why i say we need anylasis. I believe we will find THE TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION.
We cant rely on botanical names OR local names, for there are several for each plant in question.
We must identify the plants based on distinguishing characteristics, once it is established WHICH plant we are talking about, we then must ANYLIZE THE PLANT via chemical anylasis.
Onlly that way can we come to any REAL conclusions
I would like to add to adress the last poster: the info cited IS NOT coming from field notes of traut, or any other dated info which could be accurate or innaccurate.
It is coming from bioassays from plants that this peer group is actually preparing and ingesting. There is no reliable information. This is new stuff we need to learn for ourselves the truth.
The info i have presented here i believe not to be shaky but to be much closer to the truth than most aya info out there.
Please understand I am not using wishful thinking to project these things because "i want" there to be some magical ayahuasca or something...
What i mean to say is what i have said i have based of facts and research from very intelligent and experienced people much older and wiser than myself. That is why i say we need anylasis. I believe we will find THE TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION.
We cant rely on botanical names OR local names, for there are several for each plant in question.
We must identify the plants based on distinguishing characteristics, once it is established WHICH plant we are talking about, we then must ANYLIZE THE PLANT via chemical anylasis.
Onlly that way can we come to any REAL conclusions
I would like to add to adress the last poster: the info cited IS NOT coming from field notes of traut, or any other dated info which could be accurate or innaccurate.
It is coming from bioassays from plants that this peer group is actually preparing and ingesting. There is no reliable information. This is new stuff we need to learn for ourselves the truth.
I think it's foolhardy to attempt to do this without putting some stock in the botanical names that already exist. Professional botanists have been putting in years upon years of time teasing some of these things apart (and putting some together 
)...and many specimens are clearly identified and described in the literature...it's just not the literature the average psychonaut spends reading and for good reason (it's boring as all hell).
We can advance this knowledge further, without a doubt...but to ignore it as a whole seems illogical. Compared to indigenous names, scientific nomenclature has a relatively solid history and systematic approach that makes it, imo, a necessary anchor unless we want to find ourselves in the situation where people are arguing over the differences of Banisteriopsis rusbyana and Diplopterys cabrerana without realizing they're the same plant.
If we're going to ignore scientific nomenclature (and countless peer-reviewed articles) in an attempt to identify some of the most notoriously difficult genera to ID, I'd posit we'd need a pretty compelling reason that I don't think exists.
)...and many specimens are clearly identified and described in the literature...it's just not the literature the average psychonaut spends reading and for good reason (it's boring as all hell).We can advance this knowledge further, without a doubt...but to ignore it as a whole seems illogical. Compared to indigenous names, scientific nomenclature has a relatively solid history and systematic approach that makes it, imo, a necessary anchor unless we want to find ourselves in the situation where people are arguing over the differences of Banisteriopsis rusbyana and Diplopterys cabrerana without realizing they're the same plant.
If we're going to ignore scientific nomenclature (and countless peer-reviewed articles) in an attempt to identify some of the most notoriously difficult genera to ID, I'd posit we'd need a pretty compelling reason that I don't think exists.
Thats true snozz, that would be foolish, to dismiss the hard earned identifications and classifications, that is not what i meant to say we should do.
We should use all knowledge available including the scientific classifications, and the indigenous ones. Because thats correct many of these mystery vines in question have already been identified and classified, it is just that their local or tradtional uses/info may be very obscure, and not show up on our radar as one of these vines in question.
As i said im no botanist, but id be willing to make a bet that all these vines in the malphigae or banisteriopsis classification have some properties, i bet most of them contain harmalas.
Also of course bio-assays arent enough, we really do need to anylize the ones in question. Once we have a picture (of the plant, flowering plant, flower, seed, etc.), a botanical classification, a few local names, bioassays, and a chemical analysis for each plant we could start a database of RELIABLE material backed up by personal experiences as well as scientific anylasis and fact.
for sure banisteriopsis muricata (black) and alecia anisopetala are good starting points, and also ones that are thought to contain dmt and harmalas. It would be really nice to prove it with science!
We should use all knowledge available including the scientific classifications, and the indigenous ones. Because thats correct many of these mystery vines in question have already been identified and classified, it is just that their local or tradtional uses/info may be very obscure, and not show up on our radar as one of these vines in question.
As i said im no botanist, but id be willing to make a bet that all these vines in the malphigae or banisteriopsis classification have some properties, i bet most of them contain harmalas.
Also of course bio-assays arent enough, we really do need to anylize the ones in question. Once we have a picture (of the plant, flowering plant, flower, seed, etc.), a botanical classification, a few local names, bioassays, and a chemical analysis for each plant we could start a database of RELIABLE material backed up by personal experiences as well as scientific anylasis and fact.
for sure banisteriopsis muricata (black) and alecia anisopetala are good starting points, and also ones that are thought to contain dmt and harmalas. It would be really nice to prove it with science!
This is a fascinating topic.
Something I've been meaning to share for a while....
I have found that using small amounts of caapi leaf (0.5-1 handful) in a pot of tea water boiled with my morning green tea has a VERY noticeable effect on my overall mood and perception. This seemed a little strange so I brewed up a more concentrated brew and sure enough I got very distinct DMT like visions, but they only lasted a brief 10 minutes or so and then it was just a strong harmala afterglow.
There is something else in the leaves as well that has a tendency to make me want to grind me teeth..not like an amphetamine or anything but a noticeable stimulant effect none-the-less.
Unfortunately I do not know what species the leaves are from.
One last thought. After using a batch of Cielo and then switching to Black it was a very different experience. I find the black to be much more uncomfortable than the Cielo. But the afterglow is about the same with both. For sure the black feels a tad different, but it's hard to distinguish subjective effects like this.
I would not be surprised to find harmalas and DMT produced in a single organism...humans anyone?
Peace
Something I've been meaning to share for a while....
I have found that using small amounts of caapi leaf (0.5-1 handful) in a pot of tea water boiled with my morning green tea has a VERY noticeable effect on my overall mood and perception. This seemed a little strange so I brewed up a more concentrated brew and sure enough I got very distinct DMT like visions, but they only lasted a brief 10 minutes or so and then it was just a strong harmala afterglow.
There is something else in the leaves as well that has a tendency to make me want to grind me teeth..not like an amphetamine or anything but a noticeable stimulant effect none-the-less.
Unfortunately I do not know what species the leaves are from.
One last thought. After using a batch of Cielo and then switching to Black it was a very different experience. I find the black to be much more uncomfortable than the Cielo. But the afterglow is about the same with both. For sure the black feels a tad different, but it's hard to distinguish subjective effects like this.
I would not be surprised to find harmalas and DMT produced in a single organism...humans anyone?
Peace
The alicia anisopetela is now thought by people at the aya forums to be alicia macrodisca..if that is correct or not I cannot say though.
"The vine resembles ayahuasca but is black in color, the leafs resemble cappi leaves."
That does not sound like tha muricata I have from kiwi at all though Becometheother. From everything I have read muricata should look just like caapi..the vine I have from kiwi labled "muricata"(which he claimes is red ayahuasca not black) looks just like B.caapi..same cross section and everything..but I can almost see a red tint in the wood.
What you are describing as a vine black in color-that describes perfectly what the Black ayahuasca from kiwi labled "alicia anisopetela" looks like..now thought to be alicia macrodisca. I have 3 kilos of each here anyway so I can take some pictures in the next day or so and post them here..the alicia vine has a different shape to the cross section and the vine is very clearly a greysih black color very much unlike B.caapi or this other vine labled "muricata" I have here..
"The vine resembles ayahuasca but is black in color, the leafs resemble cappi leaves."
That does not sound like tha muricata I have from kiwi at all though Becometheother. From everything I have read muricata should look just like caapi..the vine I have from kiwi labled "muricata"(which he claimes is red ayahuasca not black) looks just like B.caapi..same cross section and everything..but I can almost see a red tint in the wood.
What you are describing as a vine black in color-that describes perfectly what the Black ayahuasca from kiwi labled "alicia anisopetela" looks like..now thought to be alicia macrodisca. I have 3 kilos of each here anyway so I can take some pictures in the next day or so and post them here..the alicia vine has a different shape to the cross section and the vine is very clearly a greysih black color very much unlike B.caapi or this other vine labled "muricata" I have here..
wish I had some more cash cus I would love to test out that tetrapteric methystica vine(painted caapi) kiwi seems to have gotten ahold of. I have been waiting for that to be available for some time..I ordered 6 kilos of those other vines from kiwi though as soon as I found out about them so I dont think I will order any caapi for some time.
Hey jamie i was hoping you would find this thread!
Hmm that is odd. Important to note that kiwi sells b. muricata (red) and b. muricata (black). I think that is the source of the confusion. But indeed whatever the color the vine and leaf of b. muricata should look just like cappi vine and leaf...
I may have some confusion myself then on which is the b. muricata and which is the alecia.
What i thought was alecia, is the one with the reddish tint, also if you look at alecia on his own site it looks much more yellow and red than black.
I most definetly could be wrong here, but i think the vine that is black in color is the b. muricata, and the vine that is more reddish is alecia....
I say this because as you say, muricata should look just like ayahuasca. The black vine i have does look and smell 100% like ayahuasca, exept it is black. The red vine looks more different, and also doesnt have the familiar smell...
Is that what you think jamie? or do you think the opposite?
Like i said though jamie you definetly could be right about that one it remains to be seen.
Either way the muricata and alecia are supposed to have the same properties, harmalas in the vine, and dmt in the leaf.
Pictures would definetly help. I will see if i cant get up some pictures of mine as well.
Hmm that is odd. Important to note that kiwi sells b. muricata (red) and b. muricata (black). I think that is the source of the confusion. But indeed whatever the color the vine and leaf of b. muricata should look just like cappi vine and leaf...
I may have some confusion myself then on which is the b. muricata and which is the alecia.
What i thought was alecia, is the one with the reddish tint, also if you look at alecia on his own site it looks much more yellow and red than black.
I most definetly could be wrong here, but i think the vine that is black in color is the b. muricata, and the vine that is more reddish is alecia....
I say this because as you say, muricata should look just like ayahuasca. The black vine i have does look and smell 100% like ayahuasca, exept it is black. The red vine looks more different, and also doesnt have the familiar smell...
Is that what you think jamie? or do you think the opposite?
Like i said though jamie you definetly could be right about that one it remains to be seen.
Either way the muricata and alecia are supposed to have the same properties, harmalas in the vine, and dmt in the leaf.
Pictures would definetly help. I will see if i cant get up some pictures of mine as well.
also either way i have combined the vine and leaf of what i thought was the alecia, the more red/smooth vine, and at a dose of 50 grams vine and 20 grams leaf i had an ayahuasca expereince that was completely amazing!
Also i used the black vine i believe to be muricata on its own with no admixture at doses of 25 and 50 grams, and i believe it has a very high harmala content because normally i need 100 grams vine to feel anything.
Jamie if you could throw up some pics of you vines, that would help us be sure we are talking about the same vine, because honestly i think that both of our understandings are correct, it is just our descriptions could fit either vine i think. because the alecia can appear a fiery red, or a greyish black, this i know because i have several samples, aslo you can see on kiwiboancayas website if you are viewing the additional images for alecia, you can see some that are fire red, and some that are grey.
Cheers nexus, love you all!
Also i used the black vine i believe to be muricata on its own with no admixture at doses of 25 and 50 grams, and i believe it has a very high harmala content because normally i need 100 grams vine to feel anything.
Jamie if you could throw up some pics of you vines, that would help us be sure we are talking about the same vine, because honestly i think that both of our understandings are correct, it is just our descriptions could fit either vine i think. because the alecia can appear a fiery red, or a greyish black, this i know because i have several samples, aslo you can see on kiwiboancayas website if you are viewing the additional images for alecia, you can see some that are fire red, and some that are grey.
Cheers nexus, love you all!
become, they were not labled when I got them. Kiwi told me he does not lable them when he sends them for obvious reasons.
However..as you can see one of the vines in my photos looks just like B.caapi..the other does not. B.muricata, being in the genus Banisteriopsis should resemble B.caapi more than a vine from another genus like Alicia..at least that is my reasoning..
Ahhh there is just soo much damn confusion here I dont know what to make of it..
I all know is I orderd the Red ayahuasca and the Black ayahuasca..the only thing on the site at the time was the muricata and alicia..the caapi they had was yellow and I did not order any yellow vine..
When I ordered there was no Muricata black listed as well..there was only red, and then muricata white seeds.
However..as you can see one of the vines in my photos looks just like B.caapi..the other does not. B.muricata, being in the genus Banisteriopsis should resemble B.caapi more than a vine from another genus like Alicia..at least that is my reasoning..
Ahhh there is just soo much damn confusion here I dont know what to make of it..
I all know is I orderd the Red ayahuasca and the Black ayahuasca..the only thing on the site at the time was the muricata and alicia..the caapi they had was yellow and I did not order any yellow vine..
When I ordered there was no Muricata black listed as well..there was only red, and then muricata white seeds.
This is just what i think jamie, and i could be wrong for sure.
I dont think you have alecia anisopetala, and i think both vines you showed are different b. muricatas.
I absoluetly could be wrong, but it just goes to show how much confusion there is regarding these vines.
That is why i really want to accomplish something with this and figure out a good way for positive identification of these different vines, coupled with chemical anylasis.
Either way thank you very much for your pictures and contributions jamie
I dont think you have alecia anisopetala, and i think both vines you showed are different b. muricatas.
I absoluetly could be wrong, but it just goes to show how much confusion there is regarding these vines.
That is why i really want to accomplish something with this and figure out a good way for positive identification of these different vines, coupled with chemical anylasis.
Either way thank you very much for your pictures and contributions jamie
Dont give up! it is damn confusing! but i tell you what that alecia packs a mean punch it is the most fantastic medicine! It is worth getting to the bottom of this, this is real progress
I have noticed a few times that the alicia photo on their site does have a more purple color to it in some areas, where my vine here is a definite greyish black sort of color..both this grey vine I have and the photo on that site though do have this weird cross section unlike any caapi I have seen..
So does the alicia you have resemble the greyish looking vine I posted or the other vine I assumed was muricata?
Also, the grey vine smells very different from B.caapi, while the other vine smells just like caapi..which also was why I came to the conclusion that one is a Banisteriopsis for sure...if they are both muricata than it is odd that they would be THAT different..weird..
So does the alicia you have resemble the greyish looking vine I posted or the other vine I assumed was muricata?
Also, the grey vine smells very different from B.caapi, while the other vine smells just like caapi..which also was why I came to the conclusion that one is a Banisteriopsis for sure...if they are both muricata than it is odd that they would be THAT different..weird..
Okay so I took a look at the red Banisteriopsis Muricata picture on the kiwi site and the caapi like vine I got does for sure look just like that vine..much much more so than that grey vine does..so I am quite sure that must be the red muricata that I ordered..
The other vine was labled "black ayahuasca" on the site when I ordered..then a day or so later is was reidentified as Alicia Anisopetela after all the stuff on the ayahuasca boards..but still a black ayahuasca. So I assumed that he was sending me alicia as the picture was still of the same vine as when I ordered it, just now properly ID'd..
So now I am unsure what this grey vine really is..I wish I could see a picture of the that black muricata..I never did see it on the kiwi site ever..
The other vine was labled "black ayahuasca" on the site when I ordered..then a day or so later is was reidentified as Alicia Anisopetela after all the stuff on the ayahuasca boards..but still a black ayahuasca. So I assumed that he was sending me alicia as the picture was still of the same vine as when I ordered it, just now properly ID'd..
So now I am unsure what this grey vine really is..I wish I could see a picture of the that black muricata..I never did see it on the kiwi site ever..
So I posted a link to this thread in another thread on the aya forums here..
Zaka thinks that the grey vine I have a picture of is an Alicia vine due to the corky texture of it..
Zaka thinks that the grey vine I have a picture of is an Alicia vine due to the corky texture of it..