Post-truth world, dealing with a lack of critical thinking in peers and danger of fringe idea promul

[null24]

DEAREST MODS, I'm sticking this here, if it belongs in the political sub due to such content then please move, i don't think it violates any political content rules in general.
This post isn't directly related in any way to DMT or psychedelics, although it can be applied to the community as a whole, much of what I identify as thinking errors are rife within it.

I'm finding the gulf between individuals in this post-truth world to be widening to such an alarming extent that fear it will be at some point in the near future completely impossible to bridge.
Ideologies are creating insular communities within social media outlets that are protected from dissent , echo-chambers in which hypotheses go to fact through reaffirmation only, completely bypassing any data-collection verification process. Anything from Muslim invasions to flat-earth becomes truth simply because someone agrees with it.

What's the danger? Social-media algorithms are designed to keep viewers on their sites as long as possible in order to generate more revenue. That has become to mean that-in the case of YouTube- that more and more outrageous and bombastic videos will appear in your feed as you go along. This has been reported on by the New York Times. For example, you do a search on Barack Obama for a high school essay and watch some videos. Pretty soon, you'll see ones promoting fringe ideas about his nationality or constitutional right to govern. Keep watching and you may run into white nationalist ideologies. People watching these who may or may not have the benefits of higher education may not apply very rigorous critical thinking to the ideas presented and begin espousing them as their own.

So, again, what's so bad about a few silly fringe ideas floating around the internet? How about mass shootings and genocidal possibility at one end of the spectrum of bad and just plain ugly stupidity at the other.

The notion that fringe conspiracy theories just might have become so prevalent in society to have made it into an untrusting mass of ignorance through the actions of giant corporations seeking to maximize advertising revenue is not lost on me, nor is the intense sadness.

Today a friend told me that there is no such thing as global warming, that it was invented as a “political thing”. Pointing out to him that sea levels were indeed rising and that it is no longer a matter of debate, he told me that rising sea levels are due to water magically expanding, not any kind of global icemelt. Knowing that this person watches no news programs, nor reads anything of any kind I asked where he got that information from. He looked at me like I was a fool for asking and told me “a documentary”, meaning YouTube.

Somewhere, an entire generation and a whole bunch of their elders have become so untrusting with the information they've been given and envious of truth that they'll (conversely) believe anything. I think a cultural knowing that the education given out through the 20th century and that continues in America is largely social conditioning and political indoctrination has done this and letting the cat out of the bag, so to speak, with the prevalence and availability of-frankly bad- information the contributing cause.

I don't need my friends to have the same ideas or to come to the same conclusions as me, in fact I love and invite discussion. However I cannot entertain such an ignorant idea that global warming is a lie and that water is expanding because aliens or something and laugh it off. This guy might just vote. I seriously doubt it, but still it's a remote possibility that his ignorance could infect the decision process that effects change in the world-or not. Therefore it's a thing and I couldn't just switch the conversation to which dispensary has the best cheapest weed. I don't know where to go with this as far as my friend goes, I need friends I can talk to. If it was a matter of him citing his source, and discussing the possibility or not of that person's conclusion, instead the conversation instantly devolved into a shouting match. I guess I can come off cold, but my friend reacted, taking it so personally that I was surprised at the offense that he took at not being agreed with.

Conversation is impossible in this climate. Ignorance is rife and evolving into something completely new. There is some intelligence here, what are your thoughts, ideas on this?

-Is truth important to you, and what exactly IS truth to you?
- Is this generational and if so, how? While in no ways exclusive to them, it seems that millennials are far more likely to indulgein this thinking. If so however, I'm afraid it's my generation (yEcchs)
that created it to begin with.
-How do you confront/deal with a lack of critical thinking in your peers if it's something you'd recognized?
- Do you have or promote fringe ideas and how do you back them up? WITHOUT ESPOUSING ANY OF THEM, CONSPIRACY THEORY AND POLITICAL TALK IS NOT WELCOME IN THIS THREAD OR SUBFORUM!!!

 

[ozzoes]

What a interesting discussion you propose here, i really love this place for it. Seems to be the most intelligent place I’ve ever visited on the internet; whilst on the other side being the most convoluted place I ‘have ever visited. Doesn´t it perfectly reflect the very thing it carries in its name in that way?

But to answer the questions you posted on the end,

Truth is the most important thing in the world to me, yet i´m slowly coming to the conclusion that it doesn´t really exists in the world of word. Truth is there until we put words to it, the very medium for conveying this truth seems incapable of it; at least this is my truth.
I rather shut up nowadays instead of infecting others with my truth.
For the truth of the matter is, we´ve managed to complicate things to a level that´s unheard off. You have to be an expert to understand a subject nowdays, but you can only become an expert trough standing on facts given by your predecessors; and those facts are just their truths...

I don´t think it´s a generational thing, for i´m no more lost or less lost in the web of non-truth then my friends which are 60, 40, 30 or 20. Being 25 myself. The first person to lay the entire moon landing conspiracy in my lap was a 64 year old theologian.

The only way i deal with a lack of critical thinking around me, or within me, is accepting their thinking, or mine, but questioning it from every angle conceivable. When this leads to a shouting match i either enjoy it, or abandon it. If this is a fact that is unavoidable the contact will soon fade, shouting wears me out rather quickly.

I had and still have a whole load of fringe ideas, i support them or discredit them trough the only real data available to me, direct data. I´ve become rather untrusting, of others and myself; both are equally capable of deluding me.

Truth… a strange thing. I geuss the dutch saying the truth lies in the middle is a perfect one. It´s just that the middle is this unseen unspoken thing, we don´t operate in it..

Interesting, I hope I have added something to your topic besides words..

 

[xss27]

Conversation is impossible in this climate. Ignorance is rife and evolving into something completely new. There is some intelligence here, what are your thoughts, ideas on this?

-Is truth important to you, and what exactly IS truth to you?
- Is this generational and if so, how?
-How do you confront/deal with a lack of critical thinking in your peers if it's something you'd recognized?
- Do you have or promote fringe ideas and how do you back them up? WITHOUT ESPOUSING ANY OF THEM, CONSPIRACY THEORY AND POLITICAL TALK IS NOT WELCOME IN THIS THREAD OR SUBFORUM!!!

Ignorance is everywhere. Some people lack critical thinking skills completely, whilst at the other end of the scale people rely on it far too much so that they automatically dismiss things they should probably consider for further investigation.

Fringe ideas are starting to come to a boil for the same reason that 'far-right' and populist thinking is starting to boil as well. It's because our way of life has become far too rigid, controlling, and not flexible enough in accommodating questions outside the authorised paradigm. It is nature fighting back, through human beings, to balance out a system that is no longer in resonance with itself or its context. It is a self-correcting mechanism.

If education had done a better job of teaching children how to think and not what to think then there would be more inherent trust in the prevailing paradigm and less fringe ideas. You see the same thing with cannabis.. everyone was told as a child it was bad and evil, they smoke some and find out it's not so bad, then go on to denounce the system and claim cannabis is harmless when actually the truth is a bit of both sides. The whole thing could have been avoided in the first place with actual education consisting of real critical analysis of the subject, and not dogma from either side.

I embrace quite a few fringe ideas that puts me at odds with a lot of people I think I can do a reasonable job of debating my position but it inevitably always comes back to being told to "prove it", which basically amounts to citing an authorised source or figure of the prevailing paradigm, and if you can't do that then you're wrong/end of debate. As already stated, it's this inflexible attitude and unwillingness to even tolerate an idea off the well worn path that sustains fringe ideas. Again, I think this is a natural mechanism at play.. if we stay on the well worn path we never grow or evolve.. there has to be a tension between the norm and the fringe to keep us moving forwards.

 

[DmnStr8]

The only one you need to worry about is yourself and your truth. What kind of life do you what to live?... and then... go live it!

What can you or I possibly do to combat everything you have presented here? So much of what you are talking about is largely out of your control. If you want to hold people accountable for their ignorance and stupidity, that is your deal. You can confront and deal with a lack of critical thinking anyway you see fit and you will still have zero control over it.

You can't control other people, which includes stupidity and all the other negativities that people throw out into the world. You can control yourself though. I feel like we all have a personal truth. It doesn't matter what it is, it just matters that we all have it. If you can recognize that someone is struggling with their personal truths, perhaps being someone that can help guide thinking is a better alternative to confrontation. Compassion is what this world needs. Not more division.

I feel like if you just try and live and breathe your personal truth, it affects others in ways that we cannot ever really determine. Your very presence and guidance could go a very long way in helping a wayward soul. Not saving them, helping them. I guess that is my point. Helping people, even the ignorant, with compassion and love. I don't care if that sounds cliche at all. I really believe it. That is my truth. I live that.

I certainly hope the world learns what it needs to soon.

 

[FranLover]

Hi! I had to read this a couple of times to understand. I think these things have been like this always. It has more to do with human nature than current U.S. problems, or new forms of media. We are actually like this...dull, stupid, unimaginative, uninspired, addicted to all sorts of things...this is our life. Always in a hurry, heading towards somewhere, but never really stopping to think. So when conversation comes up we have nothing to say, but we dont want to appear to dumb, so we say whatever nonsense. We say it for our ego's sake, not the sake of the idea. Dont get ensnarled into a conversation about an idea because most people arent on board. Its just lack of knowledge that is all. Just focus on oneself because one can be quite dumb too sometimes, and say dumb things. And have true friendships or no friends at all because anything other than true friendship is a waste of time and not good enough for one, in my humble oppinion.

 

[332211]

check this out

 

[dragonrider]

I have observef the very same thing on youtube. They know that the more controversial a video is, the more views it will get. Controversy=clickbait. Has all to do with fear.

At the same time i think many people do not realy believe all the crap. Even the ones who say they do believe.

As far as i can see there are three main reasons for people to claim that they believe in weird and obviously ridiculous things like flat-earth, or more worryingly, the "jewish conspiracy to replace white people".

-They actually believe in that shit, in wich case they probably suffer from some kind of psychosis. Don't let these people smoke weed...it will only get worse.

-They do not realy believe in that shit. Maybe they believe some of it, but not all of it.
It gives them an excuse. For either failure or bitterness and most likely both.
It is a way for them to play the victim.
It is a way for them to avoid the real difficult questions.
It is less painfull to say, for instance, that all modern women are feminazi's who hate men, than to ask yourself if there maybe is something wrong with you, that causes women to avoid you.

-They do not realy believe all the bullshit. But they pretend they do, because they are selling something. Alex jones is a good example of this. He has always been a businesman. He warned about the Y2K bug to sell survival kitts, and he warned about fluoride and gay-frog-bombs to sell pills. They probably believe some of the things they claim, but not all of it.
Fearmongering is a way for them, to manipulate people.
They take facts from the real world, like the fact that chemical pollution is causing mutations in reptiles and amphibians, and then base a whole conspiracy-theory on those facts.

My guess is, that most people who believe weird shit, fall into the second category of people.
Wich would be a positive thing, because those people could potentially be cured. And better even, they are likely to cure themselves at some point when they realise that victimising themselves all the time is doing nothing for them.

 

[endlessness]

Critical thinking can be taught, and it should be taught in schools. It is the art of asking questions, of being aware of our own cognitive biases, and being able to find reliable information in the midst of noise and misinformation.


For many years that's what I worked with. Unfortunately schools for the most part don't spend much time on this. There is also a cyclical "fish biting it's own tail" kind of thing which is, there is no critical thinking being taught because teachers and school directors don't have critical thinking themselves, neither does society at large so it doesn't pressure schools to develop it, neither do lawmakers, and then the kids without critical thinking grow up and become those parents/teachers/lawmakers that neither request critical thinking to be taught.


One important thing to point out here related to this forum is that some people in the "alternative subcultures" seem to misunderstand and think that critical thinking is the same as "distrusting the establishment".. But they forget questioning authority is only a part, critical thinking is also questioning themselves and their own assumptions constantly, questioning their own subcultures and whatever minority worldviews they sometimes idolize.

Even as a common person not working in the education system or with access to the masses, I think anybody can promote critical thinking. First they must incorporate it themselves in their lives. Critical thinking must be practiced daily, it is not automatic, there needs an effort to question our assumptions constantly. Then, I think whenever we interact socially, we can help others by asking thoughtful questions to them more so than giving answers. Something like the socratic method.

There are many critical thinking guides online too, worth looking into it.

 

[dragonrider]

Critical thinking can be taught, and it should be taught in schools. It is the art of asking questions, of being aware of our own cognitive bias and being able to find reliable information in the midst of noise.


For many years that's what I worked with. Unfortunately schools for the most part don't spend much time on this. There is also a cyclical "fish biting it's own tail" kind of thing which is, there is no critical thinking being taught because teachers and school directors don't have critical thinking themselves, neither does society at large so it doesn't pressure schools to develop it, neither do lawmakers, and then the kids without critical thinking grow up and become those parents/teachers/lawmakers that neither request critical thinking to be taught.


One important thing to point out here related to this forum is that some people in the "alternative subcultures" seem to misunderstand and think that critical thinking is the same as "questioning the establishment".. But they forget this is only a part, critical thinking is also questioning themselves and their own assumptions constantly, questioning their own subcultures and whatever minority worldviews they sometimes idolize.

Yes, it should be taught.

I believe it was jonathan haidt, who did research on the subject, and he found that people who have studied philosophy actually tend to act less in a knee-jerk response kind of way, and with a more investigative and rational mindset.

At the same time, studying philosophy is a humbling experience because you will find that we have been asking ourselves the same basic questions for thousands of years.

 

[Exitwound]

-Is truth important to you, and what exactly IS truth to you?

I think being happy and loving is important, all other things are just traps of material world. You can jump over them or you can get stuck in them. If knowing something as "truth" and proving that to other people and converting them to your truth makes you happy, then try to do it by all means.
There can't be absolute truth in our existence. I've seen it many times in life, everybody else's interpretations of what is true or not may vary.

IMHO, thinking "truth must always prevail" is too idealistic and it never will be true, hehe.

- Is this generational and if so, how? While in no ways exclusive to them, it seems that millennials are far more likely to indulgein this thinking. If so however, I'm afraid it's my generation (yEcchs)
that created it to begin with.

I think that many things we see now have existed always in societies, it just wasn't so public and like 100 years ago people in my country hardly cared or were getting information about what was happening in some other distant place.
World becomes more global. Information torrent which we consume every day, becomes bigger and faster and more turbulent every day.
Minorities (conspiracy theorists and flatearthers included) have chance to reach large audience and thus to convert more people to their beliefs.

And that's okay! I believe that universe/god/nature loves diversity. I think it can't be that our world is only inhabited by Quantum Physicists, Ph.D. and even if it were the case, there would be friction points among them, they would find something to be angry and hateful about each other.

-How do you confront/deal with a lack of critical thinking in your peers if it's something you'd recognized?

I had some close people reveal themselves to me as antivax and flatearth apologists. It shocked me initally, but then I realized that if we don't bring up these subjects into our discussion and don't let them to affect our relationships, then we could still be in touch over other matters and they are decent human beings, even if they believe that one can fall off earth's edge
But it of course affects relationship and I won't be relying on their judgement in some important matters.
I think correct way is to treat them as you would trick sick person, with love, understanding and forgiveness, but not explicitly.

- Do you have or promote fringe ideas and how do you back them up? WITHOUT ESPOUSING ANY OF THEM, CONSPIRACY THEORY AND POLITICAL TALK IS NOT WELCOME IN THIS THREAD OR SUBFORUM!!!

Aren't we all here fringe ideologists? Our relationship with entheogens and revelations which we get, are of the same grade for non-involved people, as if somebody told them that they can talk with spirits of the dead.

 

[dragonrider]

Critical thinking can be taught, and it should be taught in schools. It is the art of asking questions, of being aware of our own cognitive biases, and being able to find reliable information in the midst of noise and misinformation.


For many years that's what I worked with. Unfortunately schools for the most part don't spend much time on this. There is also a cyclical "fish biting it's own tail" kind of thing which is, there is no critical thinking being taught because teachers and school directors don't have critical thinking themselves, neither does society at large so it doesn't pressure schools to develop it, neither do lawmakers, and then the kids without critical thinking grow up and become those parents/teachers/lawmakers that neither request critical thinking to be taught.


One important thing to point out here related to this forum is that some people in the "alternative subcultures" seem to misunderstand and think that critical thinking is the same as "distrusting the establishment".. But they forget questioning authority is only a part, critical thinking is also questioning themselves and their own assumptions constantly, questioning their own subcultures and whatever minority worldviews they sometimes idolize.

Even as a common person not working in the education system or with access to the masses, I think anybody can promote critical thinking. First they must incorporate it themselves in their lives. Critical thinking must be practiced daily, it is not automatic, there needs an effort to question our assumptions constantly. Then, I think whenever we interact socially, we can help others by asking thoughtful questions to them more so than giving answers. Something like the socratic method.

There are many critical thinking guides online too, worth looking into it.

In many cases, a lack of critical thinking may actually be a symptom of something worse: the fact that people have given up on life, or themselves.

An unwillingness of people to challenge themselves because they don't believe in personal growth.
They don't want to learn something new anymore. They don't want to find out how things work, they don't want to ask questions. Don't want to be puzzled, amazed.

Because ultimately, they do not believe that they can take matters into their own hands. They do not believe that they can change their lives.

 

[Jonabark]

I just wanted to weigh in on this because to my thinking there is a a combination of questions that are closely connected but also different in important ways. I see 2 key issues that seem to be proposed and recurring here; I don't think global warming was an arbitrary example of the problem, it is one of a few things that matter tremendously:

1) Our global industrial culture faces major practical consequences from current practices. This problem requires reality based decision-making to avoid dire results. This same culture has developed sophisticated ways of distracting people from that very large and hard-to-face reality, and distraction is something most of us embrace for various reasons.

2) Because there are no easy answers to problems so large, many who are embedded in this culture avoid challenges to their thinking, to their lifestyle, and to values and practices that have always seemed to work. One way to do this is latch on to ideas that are almost impossible to logically defend but that have expert proponents and often large groups who want to believe those ideas. Why listen to other ideas when you have something that let's you off the hook of the difficulty in searching for reality based understanding.

These 2 issues have a big role and can't be avoided. Let's face it this is scary and consequential stuff for all of us and even more so for the young, because the rate at which the the consequences of global wars and biospheric destruction is proceeding is dangerously out of control. Ideas and facts have never mattered more. This is obviously sending warnings to everyone with any kind of reality based understanding. But even when a majority have sensible understanding like with global warming, those with the greatest power promote unreal ideas that enforce their wealth and power over the common good.

People have always believed crazy things, and sometimes crazy-weird things even turn out to be true. Where and how and with whom to spend our persuasive energy is critical if we want make a difference in global and local decisions. And this for me is the deeper underlying dilemma. I wish I could offer greater clarity but I do agree with the various calls to stay calm and not get emotionally tangled in arguments that go no-where. But whether we like it or not, we have some responsibility to shape systems of decision making that can tell truth from delusion or our futures while be shaped increasingly by a self destructive departure from good sense for life on planet earth.
One of the values on this website is to avoid insults and say what you think clearly and persuasively without being mean or thinking you have all the answers. That is a good practice in the area of critical thinking.

 

[FranLover]

Those are great points and clearly explained jonabark.

 

[dreamer042]

TL;DR: Shut up! Listen up! Put down the phone and learn to oppose your own belief systems (BS).

I always try to remember that many people I meet have not had the luxury of enjoying a University level education, which (at least in the US) is where these ideas are generally presented. Even then (at least in my own educational career) while "critical thinking" is consistently stressed as a buzzword, the actual techniques of how to think critically are glossed over at best, and more often than not were never presented at all.

Having been subject to this less than edifying approach, this is something I still often struggle with and constantly attempt to challenge myself to improve upon. It's one of those things in myself that I see glaringly reflected in others, particularly when approaching the research literature. I find a study or two that supports my preconceived notions, take it as gospel truth without question, and proceed to try to pass it off as such to everyone I possibly can. I think moar of us here may be guilty of that one than we'd care to admit hehe.

So as I say, I've been working on it, and there are few ways I've attempted to challenge myself in this regard. One thing that has been immensely helpful for me is seeking information that contradicts my beliefs and attempting to evaluate it honestly with an attitude of being open to learning and changing my thinking and beliefs. Another big one is putting my egoic "knowing" aside, keeping my fool mouth shut, and actually listening to other people in hope of authentically hearing them and learning the information they are conveying to me. I'm really bad at that one, but it's a wonderful personal growth practice.

I think the mention of the social media echo chamber is 100% on point. Many people are living such insular lives so completely dictated by AI algorithms, that they are no longer finding themselves exposed to alternate points of view, and when they do find themselves confronted with cognitive dissonance, they are unequipped to cope with it appropriately. I think the quip about using Youtube to "research" an Obama report is an incredibly apt illustration of exactly where the social consciousness sits, or put another way, of everything that's wrong with the world today.

-Is truth important to you, and what exactly IS truth to you?
I have no answer for this one, but I love to think about it. I find attempting to wrap my head around Buddhist interpretations of this question the most satisfying approach I've stumbled across thus far.

-Is this generational and if so, how?
As pointed out above, these kinds of questions, in one form or another, are age old. Undoubtedly, our current paradigm creates unprecedented new challenges and opportunities in addressing them and it's made for a culture that seems to be misguided at best, and truly dangerous at worst. But, this has been *true* :roll: across time and place as long as sentient beings have been engaging in self-reflection.

-How do you confront/deal with a lack of critical thinking in your peers if it's something you'd recognized?
This is the fun part! You engage in critical thinking for them. Barrage em with questions that make them attempt to defend their position and think deeply about why they believe what they believe. This generally results hilarity for you and frustration for them, so do this on the first couple beers before they are less in control of their emotional reactions. A handy ganja pipe can also keep it cool. 8)

-Do you have or promote fringe ideas and how do you back them up?
Absolutely! Belligerently and vehemently, I assure you. :twisted:

 

[Koornut]

I’m trying desperately to keep my fringe ideas to myself, I had issues with mouth and keyboard blasting everyone I met with my special brand of spurious nonsense until a year or two ago I made a truce with myself that only truth will pass through these lips. It’s hard. I’ve found great benefit from this approach, there’s time now to buckle down and explore what my initial intuitions were, it feels like i’ve moved away from artfully placed islands of stability at the edge of chaos towards firm and stable grounds. It’s funny though, I’ve always been skeptical of others nonsense and assumed my own to be true.

It feels good to have done the work and learned the math to back up some of my claims, numbers don’t lie, but there is always more to be done.

My main weapon is consistently telling myself in my notes:
“Don’t jump to conclusions dickhead!”