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Ps.allenii alk content : +70% on Acacia woodchips!

Quetzal7

Quetzal7

Esteemed member
Dear community,

Psilocybe Allenii have been grown on 3 different substrates, side to side. The resulting crop was sent for analysis.

Allenii on Oak woodchips : 0.75% Psilocybin 0.13% Psilocin Norpsilocin (minor)
Allenii on Acacia Dealbata woodchips : 1.01% Psilocybin 0.05% Psilocin Norpsilocin (minor) (20% increase in total alkaloid compare to oak)
Allenii on Acacia Acuminata woodchips : 1.31% Psilocybin 0.21% Psilocin Norpsilocin (minor) (72% increase in total alkaloid compare to oak)


Some datas about the experiment:
Inoculation was done around March (through bed to bed transfer, so some original Acacia dealbata is present in all the beds)

The harvest was done on the same day (around november) for the Oak and Dealbata, and a couple days later for the Acuminata (the weather condition were roughly similar, but it was hard to synchronize the 3 patches).
Each batch got powdered, so properly homogenized, and a sample sent to a lab for the analysis.

Possible bias : Each bed has his own vibe, no matter what ...
Oaks create more pin and smaller mushroom in general ; but each bed, even with the same substrate, behave slightly differently.
Oak and Allenii had several bed fruiting at that time (so the sample is very much representing the average strengh) , but i had only one bed of Acacia Acuminata
That single bed of Acacia acuminata had also more green material (because i suspected the presence of alkaloid in the phyllodes) , which the mycelium didn't like as much (it colonized, but only 90%, and less densely) ; the yield was therefor a bit less on that bed.

Acacia dealbata is not known to contain any meaningful quantity of active alkaloids (i also just sent some root bark to test, and it came back as "trace of DMT" and that's about it, see the paper in joint file).
Acacia acuminata will be sent in the lab next season, but has already shown to have NMT and traces of DMT (the trees are still young, this could evolve).
I'm not sure if the significant difference of strengh is due to the presence of alkaloids, or to other factors entirely.

Which factors? and how to research this further? could be the subject of this topic.
 

Attachments

  • Allenii_Acuminata_Final_Report-1.pdf
    1.1 MB · Views: 6
  • Allenii_Dealbata_Final_Report.pdf
    1.1 MB · Views: 1
  • Allen_OAK_Final_Report.pdf
    1.1 MB · Views: 1
  • Acacia_Dealbata_Final_Report.pdf
    3 MB · Views: 2
Last edited:
Also a point of interest :

Therapists (well , most users, but the data is harder to collect) report a strengh of 2 o 2.5 times of cubensis. This is also interesting, as it seems this test doesn't suggest such a difference, but this difference is well establish by empirical data (hundreds of ceremony, several therapist, constant settings, and the data was properly collected by taking notes and making tables). One of the therapist use a typical first dose of 1.2g to 1.5g, a will very rarely dose anyone more than 2g (unless they are on SSRI and show resistence).
Recreative users generally report taking 1g maximum to have a good time ; i myself find that 0.5g is plenty for a good trance-dance :)

Any take on whats goin on here? :)
 
Quetzal7 said:
Also a point of interest :

Therapists (well , most users, but the data is harder to collect) report a strengh of 2 o 2.5 times of cubensis. This is also interesting, as it seems this test doesn't suggest such a difference, but this difference is well establish by empirical data (hundreds of ceremony, several therapist, constant settings, and the data was properly collected by taking notes and making tables). One of the therapist use a typical first dose of 1.2g to 1.5g, a will very rarely dose anyone more than 2g (unless they are on SSRI and show resistence).
Recreative users generally report taking 1g maximum to have a good time ; i myself find that 0.5g is plenty for a good trance-dance :)

Any take on whats goin on here? :)
Click to expand...
Could be β-carbolines and/or mannose-enhanced absorption, being the first ideas that come to mind. A more extensive analysis might help to answer that question.

Thanks for the efforts in this cool piece of research, btw!
 
zappyzappa said:
Oh, well.. how many gr of aleniis were used from each bed?
Or perhaps I'm asking a moot question? 😅
Click to expand...
Moot, not at all - how many grams from each bed for the analyses? I'd suggest browsing the attached pdf's while we wait for @Quetzal7 to respond.

{Just in case you were wondering, it was not clear whether you were [instead] asking about the number of subjects in the reported potency among therapeutic clients, which could also be referred to as "sample size".}
 
Each type was something in the magnitude of 150g (or more) , powdered and homogenized , and 10g of each was sent to analysis ( which was completly overkill).
The variation from fruit body to fruit body (and the exact level of maturity of the fruit body) was definitly canceled. This analysis represent a clear average.
 
May be completely a waste of time but you should try adding a tiny amount of pure extracted DMT into the substrate before sterilizing/pasteurizing. I added dmt at 1mg/ml dose as a foliar drop wise... (less than 1mg per application since only add like 1/30 a ml) This caused a mutagen like effect which also lead to pupping verses controls which NONE have pupped. I'm sure there is also some sort of alkaloid change but I've not yet tested this.

So the idea would be testing if 'sterile/inactive' wood chips supplement with dmt would increase the alk content in similar amounts. You would add compatible amounts to the values found in the equivalent amount of wood chips you used in your test. So in 100g of wood you usually have what 1% dmt? so 1g dmt. If 'worth it' or not is up to the grower but some have excess compounds of one or the other and a 70% increase of Psilocybe Allenii alkaloids my be a preference over 1g of dmt. (You could always use less since there is likely a max threshold before negative effects)

Very cool. Too bad no easy to test of content at home is there?
 
modern said:
added dmt at 1mg/ml dose as a foliar drop wise... (less than 1mg per application since only add like 1/30 a ml) This caused a mutagen like effect which also lead to pupping verses controls which NONE have pupped.
Click to expand...
Have you discussed this in the cactus cultivation subforum yet? It would be nice to have a straightforward means of pup-induction besides BAP.

The supplementation idea for shroom substrate has been discussed on numerous previous occasions, but it's still worthy of consideration. NMT and/or tryptamine would also work, maybe moreso depending on the preferentiality of the enzyme system.

Phosphate supplementation has been said to increase psilocybin yields as well, so it may be worthwhile to examine both the phosphate content of the various substrates, and how they affect phosphate mobility through anion retention.
 
I remember at some point there was a "hype" around some cubensis fed on 5 MEO and making a kind 5MEO-psilo trip - which was debunk as fake later on.
But it was supposely back up by other tests about feeding mushroom other tryptamine...

So, is there any study about this subject ? any other source of information i could compare my results with ?
I do want to (try to) get to the bottom of this ! is it the DMT or some tryptamine creating this potency surge, or something else entirely...
 
Lots of old fake reports for various reasons... best to either test yourself or assume its a lie. Most things will not be tested by scientific community due to being very limited application so falls on hobbyists. Improving yield does help for commercial growers since legalization is always on the horizon but scale will fix most issues until we reach a bottleneck.

Perhaps tryptophan will be a better additive... even different dung sources have varying values.

Extensive Collection of Psychotropic Mushrooms with Determination of Their Tryptamine Alkaloids - PMC

Since not only psilocybin (PSB) but also PSB-containing mushrooms are used for psychedelic therapy and microdosing, it is necessary to know their concentration variability in wild-grown mushrooms. This article aimed to determine the PSB, psilocin ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
"Furthermore, the concentration of tryptamines may depend on the substrate composition: the content and bioavailability of nitrogen, phosphate, and the amino acid tryptophan, which serves as a precursor for the biosynthesis of PSB and similar tryptamines [77,79]. Tryptophan can be enriched in the substrate by fertilizing the soil with decomposed plants or animal dung [80], so fruiting bodies harvested, e.g., from woodchip beds might contain higher tryptamine concentrations than those from natural sites. However, the actual influence of such factors has yet to be investigated. Last but not least, the concentrations may be artificially affected by sample processing and storage before analysis [55]."
 
Is there baseline information/data about the percent alkaloid variability between fruits/flushes with P. allenii in general? Cubes can have quite a bit of inter/intra flush and fruit variability, if memory serves. Looking forward to reading your attachments, but the variability question immediately jumped to mind.

Quetzal7 said:
I remember at some point there was a "hype" around some cubensis fed on 5 MEO and making a kind 5MEO-psilo trip - which was debunk as fake later on.
But it was supposely back up by other tests about feeding mushroom other tryptamine...

So, is there any study about this subject ? any other source of information i could compare my results with ?
I do want to (try to) get to the bottom of this ! is it the DMT or some tryptamine creating this potency surge, or something else entirely...
Click to expand...

There is a grifting church that essentially bastardized a letter from Alexander Shulgin with a generalized hypothesis based on Jochen Gartz's work. The short version is that they sell people cubensis mushrooms through the mail while claiming it's an essentially mythical compound ("psilomethoxin"). It's likely worth reviewing Gartz's old studies/general work but I honestly don't have enough knowledge to know how relevant it is to this particular case, I'd think somewhat at least.

There's also this, from the forums:

Biosynthesis of Novel Tryptamines Aspirations
 
Yea, it was absolute looney tunes. My favorite might have been either how mind-bogglingly clueless their "master chemist" appeared to be or their ongoing deliberate misrepresentation of Shulgin's letter.

I don't want to derail this thread further, so I'll just point back to benzyme's comments about tryptamine hcl and my question about allenii alkaloid variability 😀
 
Memberberries said:
I don't want to derail this thread further, so I'll just point back to benzyme's comments about tryptamine hcl and my question about allenii alkaloid variability 😀
Click to expand...
Thanks - that's exactly the thread I had in mind, which may also be the one where the role of tryptophan in downregulating psilocybin gets highlighted (there were several, and this dates back to one of my previous incarnations at the Shroomery).


It would be good, also, to dig out the reference regarding phosphate nutrition in psilocybin-active species, since it's an essential component of the 4-oxidation of fungal tryptamines. @benzyme's thread was pretty comprehensive, iirc.
modern said:
Perhaps tryptophan will be a better additive... even different dung sources have varying values.
Click to expand...
Looking at the reference there, I would suggest the authors were possibly unaware of the aforementioned downregulatory role of tryptophan.
 
Transform said:
Thanks - that's exactly the thread I had in mind, which may also be the one where the role of tryptophan in downregulating psilocybin gets highlighted (there were several, and this dates back to one of my previous incarnations at the Shroomery).


It would be good, also, to dig out the reference regarding phosphate nutrition in psilocybin-active species, since it's an essential component of the 4-oxidation of fungal tryptamines. @benzyme's thread was pretty comprehensive, iirc.

Looking at the reference there, I would suggest the authors were possibly unaware of the aforementioned downregulatory role of tryptophan.
Click to expand...
Seems it may be dependent on the species of mushroom? I have zero idea and as much as I'd like to enter this field not viable for me at the time being. Tryptamine does seem to have a more direct or closer conversion to psilocybin however unless that specific enzyme is unregulated earlier there is always bottlenecks. From my research many of those other pathways that breakdown and DO NOT lead to direct production of the psilocybin are just as important as the main pathway.

Genetic regulation of l-tryptophan metabolism in Psilocybe mexicana supports psilocybin biosynthesis - PMC

Although Basidiomycota produce pharmaceutically and ecologically relevant natural products, knowledge of how they coordinate their primary and secondary metabolism is virtually non-existent. Upon transition from vegetative mycelium to carpophore ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov



Kinda a side tracking but this is exactly what I would love to test with plants... I did a very very quick glance so unsure if in vivo with fungus or if they isolated the direct enzyme and added to a yeast or something. But regardless I'm sure in nature these same results can be obtained although the other enzymes and such may limit production of these other compounds.

 
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