Psilocybin and Alcoholism

[Wax]

Apologies fellow nexians if this has been asked before but I'm in a hurry at the moment and a quick search turned up nil.

In short, I need some advice. I am well aware of the ability psilocybin has on addiction but I would like to specifically inquire about its affects concerning alcoholism. My best friend is in a very bad way and I want to help him desperately.

I would turn to aya first but I am afraid that he cannot break from alcohol long enough to safely ingest an maoi, even if he is mentally able to, he is not physically able to stop drinking suddenly.

I will elaborate more later but I would be ever grateful to anyone who could share experiences similar in nature or give any advice on how to go about a healing ceremony so as he can receive the greatest benefit from this.

Thank you

 

[a1pha]

Wax-

If your friend has a serious alcohol problem I think it would be best to refer him to medical professionals trained to deal with this sort of thing or a local AA group. Treating him with drugs, albeit possibly healing ones, is risky for both you and him.

Ask yourself: Are you willing to take liability of something going terribly wrong? Yes, overall psilocybin has a good safety profile but do you honestly think it can break a severe case of alcohol addition? I'd venture to say no.

Help him seek professional help. That is really the best thing you can do for him.

All the best and good luck.

a1pha

 

[universecannon]

Yes, overall psilocybin has a good safety profile but do you honestly think it can break a severe case of alcohol addition? I'd venture to say no.

Actually it is possible IMO

Psilocybin and LSD have shown great promise in treating substance addictions when used carefully, including alcoholism (LSD more so than psilocybin, but LSD is of course much more thoroughly studied, so IMO that is probably the main reason why that is). There was actually phenomenal results using LSD 40 or so years ago for chronic alcoholism, as an analysis of only part of this research a few years ago has concluded (there is a lot more out there in addition to this):

"Norwegian scientists conducted a meta-analysis, combining the results of six randomized trials that tested the effect of a single dose of LSD for alcoholism in 536 adults. Researchers found that 59% of participants who took acid either dramatically cut back their drinking or quit, compared with 38% of controls, who either took a much smaller dose of acid or used another drinking-prevention treatment. Only eight cases of adverse effects or “bad trips” were reported, none of them lasting longer than the high itself."

That said, I would recommend getting him to acquire some professional help, regardless of whether or not he chooses to seriously look into this option. If he does, hopefully he knows what he is getting into and that preparation and set/setting is absolutely key. The context within which these medicines are used is everything when it comes to outcomes. There are, of course, some risks; as always with these things...but compared to the risks of continuing to be a chronic alcoholic...

 

[a1pha]

Yes, overall psilocybin has a good safety profile but do you honestly think it can break a severe case of alcohol addition? I'd venture to say no.

Actually it is possible IMO

Psilocybin and LSD have shown great promise in treating substance addictions when used carefully, including alcoholism (LSD more so than psilocybin, but LSD is of course much more thoroughly studied, so IMO that is probably the main reason why that is). There was actually phenomenal results using LSD 40 or so years ago for chronic alcoholism, as an analysis of only part of this research a few years ago has concluded (there is a lot more out there in addition to this)

The OP is asking for serious advice. Someone's life might be at stake here...

The study you just linked is using LSD to treat alcoholism, not psilicybin. Do you have any studies relevant to the OPs issue at hand? Otherwise, you are playing with someone's life. Our only advice here should be to advise professional treatment and not link irrelevant studies and provide hope where there is little actual research.

UC, you should know the rules here more than most: Medical emergency: what to do?

Can't do: Advice to take a massive dose or get cured by dosing
Again, when people are in great need for relief, giving someone with suicide tendencies or serious mental condition the advice to take a massive dose of entheogens will very likely not cure this person. If a person visits the DMT-Nexus they most likely tried that already. Also the effects of entheogens is highly unpredictable, even more so for people with mental conditions, so there is no way to safely know psychedelics will help, quite possibly they will worsen the situation.

Psychedelics can strengthen the delusion of people in a bad way. If a person has delusional ideas and we give advice to take psychedelics, chances are that this will backfire.

Can do: Carefully persuade this person to seek professional help
In cases where someone is highly delusional, we will have to walk a very thin line to get this persons attention and slowly try to drive him into the direction of professional medical help. Understand that people in a delusional state are likely to only accept the words that strenghten the delusion and reject the words that are not, be very careful with what you say!

[The Traveler's post edited for clarity]

 

[bindu]

Wax, you tell much about yourself but very little about your friend.

For how long has he been an addict and since when is he an alcoholic? Has he tried to stop before? Was he in a addiction program? Does he receive other kinds of therapy?



Aya or psylocybe could help... but it could as well make problems worse to be honest. So a yes or no answer would not be appropriate even with the above questions answered.

 

[۩]

Treading lightly here:

First, does he want help?

Second, has he tried all other professional routes of treatment as a1pha has suggested?

Third, it's no secret there is potential with these compounds when used in the appropriate way. Gabor Mate has written about his success with ayahuasca on hard drug users for example. There are iboga clinics all over the world for this purpose. It can be done. It just has to be done right. Remember it's not just the drugs that make this work. There are also a lot of other variables that must be considered.

 

[a1pha]

Remember it's not just the drugs that make this work. There are also a lot of other variables that must be considered.

Well said, ۩. This exactly.

This is why we at the Nexus should only suggest one thing in this case: For the OP to help his friend seek the help of professionals.

 

[universecannon]

If you re-read my post, a1pha, you'll see I never recommended that he do this. In fact I recommended that regardless of what his friend does, he should recommend to him that he seeks out professional help.

My post was aimed towards your opinion that it has no potential in treating chronic alcoholism, when it is far too early to make this assumption. I wanted to make clear the fact that psilocybin and LSD (which is not irrelevant considering how similar the experiences are) do show great potential in helping addictions from what we know so far. Below is just some of the links in the video I made but there is much more out there. My point is that we shouldn't be making blanket statements that no, it won't help chronic alcoholism, and instead admit that we don't know 100% at this point but there is evidence to suggest it can - is it not possible to properly explain this, all while not recommending that he go and do it? I hope so. Again, I wanted to just make all of that clear, and I never recommended he just goes and gives his friends mushrooms, in fact I recommended he seek professional help.

http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/2010/09/psilocybin-facilitated-addiction/

'Magic Mushroom' Drug Shows Promise in Treating Addictions and Cancer Anxiety

Suspended for decades after controversial results, research on the hallucinogen psilocybin is showing early promise in a new series of small studies.

healthland.time.com

'Magic Mushrooms' Could Treat Depression & Addiction

The hallucinogen found in magic mushrooms could help treat a variety of psychiatric disorders, including anxiety and even addiction. However, use of the substance, called psilocybin, is not without risk. A "bad trip" can induce paranoia and delusions.

www.livescience.com

This has some of Doblins thoughts on it

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/hallucinogens-in-addiction-treatment-the-trippy-new-era-61099/

And house is of course right that there is many many variables to consider. His point also hints at why it is more so the experience itself, not the drug (except for perhaps iboga, which it is certainly both in more ways than other psychedelics), which has the potential. Which, when considering how similar the experiences can be across the board, is exactly why the LSD and other research is not irrelevant when talking about the possible potential of psilocybin. There is a lot of crossover. And psilocybin has already shown useful in treating cigarette addiction, for instance.

But, again, I don't recommend you just go tell your friend to take mushrooms. My post was in response to alpha. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[a1pha]

My post was aimed towards your opinion that it has no potential in treating chronic alcoholism, when it is far too early to make this assumption.

Where did I make the statement that it has no potential in treating chronic alcoholism? You are, once again, reading into my words. I said: "...do you honestly think it can break a severe case of alcohol addition? I'd venture to say no." That is, no, I do not believe a single dose of mushrooms can break the cycle of alcoholism... and I doubt you will find a single source that says otherwise.

As house said above, with proper treatment and counseling psychedelics have the potential to treat this disease. However, it is not our place on the Nexus to suggest this kind of treatment. The OP needs to guide his friend to medical professionals who are qualified to do so.

 

[universecannon]

My post was aimed towards your opinion that it has no potential in treating chronic alcoholism, when it is far too early to make this assumption.

Where did I make the statement that it has no potential in treating chronic alcoholism? You are, once again, reading into my words. I said: "...do you honestly think it can break a severe case of alcohol addition? I'd venture to say no." That is, no, I do not believe a single dose of mushrooms can break the cycle of alcoholism... and I doubt you will find a single source that says otherwise.

As house said above, with proper treatment and counseling psychedelics have the potential to treat this disease. However, it is not our place on the Nexus to suggest this kind of treatment. The OP needs to guide his friend to medical professionals who are qualified to do so.

Well, apologies then... But do you not see how one might interpret "...do you honestly think it can break a severe case of alcohol addiction? I'd venture to say no." as meaning that you don't think psilocybin has potential in treating chronic alcoholism? (And fwiw I, also, am not claiming a single dose of psilocybin is going cure alcoholism.)

Here is a presentation of an ongoing study of Psilocybin-Assisted Treatment for Alcohol Dependence. Preliminary results, presented at psychedelic science 2013, show integrative psilocybin treatment aided alcoholics. (Not claiming this proves anything).

Again, I never suggested or recommended that his friend take psilocybin, and I still don't. My post was in response to a1pha, not the OP. I again recommend he seeks professional help.

 

[Orion]

I find it hilarious that anyone here can take pill-dispensing 'professionals' so seriously, but sure in a lot of cases this might be better than suggesting a massive dose of psychedelics. Nobody suggested anyone should do so in this thread though, nor did anyone say one single dose would be the cure, or even that anyone should absolutely take this route.

I would try the professional 'doctor', and if he just writes off some prescription... well it's up to your friend to decide if that's the best idea for him. It would be better if we knew just how serious his condition he was. Does he just drink too much or is the condition severe or even life threatening ?

 

[jamie]

"UC, you should know the rules here more than most: Medical emergency: what to do?"

But he never suggest anything against the rules.

 

[a1pha]

I find it hilarious that anyone here can take pill-dispensing 'professionals' so seriously, ...

Let's be clear -- 'medical professionals' does not simply include pill-dispensing doctors. You must have limited experience with the field to think so and generalize as such. Medical professionals includes, but is not limited to:

-Therapists
-Psychiatrists
-Substance abuse professionals
-Even the people who run underground Iboga clinics
-etc.

There are many caring people in the medical field and to lump them all as pill-dispensing professionals is naive. In fact, in my experience, most do everything possible NOT dispense pills and instead favor treatments such as behavior therapy.

 

[a1pha]

"UC, you should know the rules here more than most: Medical emergency: what to do?"

But he never suggest anything against the rules.

Thank you, jamie, for addressing the OP and helping him out. I'm done here.

:roll:

 

[Orion]

:?

 

[universecannon]

"UC, you should know the rules here more than most: Medical emergency: what to do?"

But he never suggest anything against the rules.

Thank you, jamie, for addressing the OP and helping him out. I'm done here.

:roll:

How does sarcasm and an eye roll contribute anything whatsoever to this discussion?

I'm still confused as to why you seem to be maintaining your position that I recommended something I never did. My original response was clearly directed towards yourself and not Wax, as I have already attempted to make clear several times at this point - all of which have been ignored.

 

[a1pha]

To the OP (the person we are supposed to be addressing):

I wish you and your friend the best of luck. Please forgive the above derailments. Certain people would rather attack my posts instead of help the issue at hand. Apologies. Please do not fear treatments offered by medical professionals. There are many good ones out there.

a1pha

 

[Wax]

Thanks for all the replies, I may have inadvertently generated some undue friction, apologies. I should give a little background information, I was just in a hurry when I posted.

My friend has been routinely consuming alcohol on a weekly if not nearly daily basis for roughly 9 years. It has gotten bad before and we staged an "intervention" a few years back that resulted in him downplaying the situation but apparently cutting back for a while. He seemed to be doing fine for the most part, still drinking weekly but not to such an extent. I moved away for 2 years and have come back to find he is worse than ever. We are again planning another intervention and going to suggest he seek help.

I was not planning on going rogue shaman and dosing him thinking it would solve everything, although I have to admit I was planning for a worst case scenario where he would refuse professional help or just go through the motions without actually getting better. This may or may not be the case, time will tell. Of course the best possible situation would be for him to get professional help but I fear that he will not respond to that route and I would like to give him the opportunity to have another option available if all else fails or possibly use mushrooms as an adjunct treatment if he does indeed seek help.

Another consideration is that he has used mushrooms previously as well as other psychedelics though not extensively. He is familiar with the effects and well aware of the benefits/risks associated. I feel that his addiction may be fueled by some underlying emotional issue that is why I am entertaining the idea of this method. I am aware that psilocybin is not a magic bullet and the real work is going to be done by him working through whatever issues may be present while the mushroom facilitates the experience, that is why I was specifically asking about a healing type of setting in which he could possibly undertake this experience if he so chooses and if all other factors align.

I was also mainly enquiring about whether or not there was anyone with relevant information or direct experience in dealing with alcoholism or another addiction with psilocybin. I greatly appreciate the links UniverseCannon and will be delving into them shortly.

 

[corpus callosum]

I reckon LSD/psilocybin will help address an aspect of the addiction that the more 'conventional' approaches often deal with inadequately, but in someone who is physically addicted to ethanol the physical ravages may need assessing and treating before addressing this aspect.Unsupervised and incorrectly managed ethanol-withdrawal can be potentially lethal after all.

 

[Entheogenerator]

I feel that his addiction may be fueled by some underlying emotional issue that is why I am entertaining the idea of this method.

Due to my personal first and second-hand experience with addiction and recovery, I have come to the conclusion that this is almost always the case. People typically don't try to destroy themselves for no reason...

I reckon LSD/psilocybin will help address an aspect of the addiction that the more 'conventional' approaches often deal with inadequately, but in someone who is physically addicted to ethanol the physical ravages may need assessing and treating before addressing this aspect.Unsupervised and incorrectly managed ethanol-withdrawal can be potentially lethal after all.

I'm with corpus on this one. There is a fair amount of evidence that psilocybin and other psychedelics may prove to be potentially useful in treating addiction and other psychological disorders. My own experience has confirmed this in my mind, but for all I know I am a one-in-a-million fluke and 99.9% of other people who try using psychedelics to treat their addictions will not experience the same outcome. Therefore I cannot morally recommend it to anyone until further scientific evidence presents itself. It is also worth mentioning that I only give psychedelics partial credit for my success in recovery. Professional treatment has proven to be every bit as helpful, if not more so, than my psychedelic experiences.