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"Psychedelic drug cuts brain blood flow and connections"

Migrated topic.
psilocybin isn't even active seen as it cant pass the blood brain barrier. What would injecting it directly into the blood do? I believe psilocybin has to pass through the liver and get broken down into the active 'psilocin' via process of MAO.
..so naturally this makes me think that injecting someone with a substance that cant pass the blood brain is going to slow down the flow of blood and oxygen.
 
Robin Carhart-Harris is working for professor David Nutt (has worked?) so I think he knows
what he's doing.
Even if the chemical is injected it should pass the liver and convert into psilocin.

The work was presented at the breaking convention 2-3 april.
breakingconvention.co.uk

Breaking Convention

breakingconvention.co.uk breakingconvention.co.uk


Why would the process of injecting someone with a chemical that can't pass the
bbb slow down the blood flow?
 
Thanks for sharing this.

Are not the required enzymes that dephosphorylate the psilcoybin into psilocin found in the blood and liver? I'm not sure on this. I think that hydrochloric and citric acids found in the stomach and lemons respectively can also achieve this, I don't think specific enzymes are even required, so perhaps there are other factors at play. Either way it is psilocin exerting active effects in the brain.


"Franz Vollenweider, who works in a similar field at the Psychiatric University Hospital Zurich, Switzerland, says that the immediate effects of psilocybin are not as important for clinical benefit as the longer-term effects. That's because psilocybin increases the expression of genes and signalling proteins associated with nerve growth and connectivity, he says: "We think that the antidepressant effects of psilocybin may be due to a possible increase of factors that activate long-term neuroplasticity."

Interesting stuff. I remember reading on here a while back about Paul Stamets claiming that psilocybin is a nerve tonic. Looks like he was right.
 
Could it be a case of 'less is more', type of thing? Because I personally find my cognitive powers to be greatly enhanced under strong yet manageable doses of psilocybin. I find that proper use of this molecule causes incredible thoughts, ideas, and their articulations to stream with absolute effortless ease. Maybe much of our ordinary brain activity is incessant and unnecessary, and psilocybin clears up some of the clutter if you will, so that our minds may be freed to more essential levels of realization that we have lost touch with over time. So maybe what enlightenment is then, is a rekindling with this most basic and obvious form of understanding, which we have grown distracted from by an over-active set of thought processes (ie- mental chatter). In other words, perhaps it's a dissolution of the same old habits of mind chugging along which allows us to access what seems to be a broader, more open and expansive sense of reality.

This does seem to fit with my experiences in a way, because the molecule definitely breaks down previously established patterns of thought, allowing me to transcend the psychological routines I've habituated myself to and step beyond old paradigms. I've broken out of many a mental rut with the help of these transformative agents. It's almost as if they were enzymes for the mind, digesting wastes that have been left behind. The fact that the study also mentions psilocybin as promoting long term nerve growth, connectivity, and neuro-plasticity would seem to fit right in with the idea that it helps us re-establish and evolve our mental framework.

Anyway, that's just me trying to relate this new information with my experiences.

Hey, I wonder how the brain activity of monks, mystics, yogis and the like might contrast/compare with all of this..
 
Interesting points, I like where you're coming from. At the Breaking Convention conference there was a talk on psilocybin, and some brain scans were compared of people on high dose psilocybin and some monks meditating, and they looked similar. Also I think the areas of the brain affected in the psilocybin study may also be affected during deep meditation states. Can't remember where I read this, but it definitely seems like there is a large degree of overlap going on between these two different mind states. It is interesting as recent research looking at a 'before and after' study of mindfulness meditation seemed to find similar benefits to those reported in this psilocybin study. Seems like one could perhaps combine meditation and psilocybin for some deep and healing experiences. This funding even hints a tiny bit at the 'stoned ape' theory, that psilocybin could be a brain developing or enhancing catalyst of some kind. Interesting stuff.

This may be of interest in terms of meditation and neuroplasticity:

 
It's interesting that they say it's a possible treatment for depression.

" Hi doc i'm feeling depressed " no probs heres some psilocybin :D
 
This "scientific report" together with alot of other Questionable scientific reports I've seen posted on here lately kind of smell like they were politically tainted.
I've seen alot of articles that spread fear propaganda about Psychedelic drugs.

Many articles like this one have been posted here and allthough they were passed of as scientific and published by scientists who seem to know well what they do,
but they turn out to be pretty bold lies when knowledgable Nexians reply to them with truthfull information.

Now if there's a health risk associated with a Psychedelic I use often I would sure like to know, but I'm wondering more and more how many of these "scientific reports" are really political propaganda. Let's not forget Nixon and his assault on Cannabis, LSD and Mescaline by spreading the boldest lies and fear-propaganda and passing them off as "Scientific results".

Sometimes I find it hard to tell wether such an article is genuine science or just another assault of lies and misinformation in the War on Drugs. Am I alone?
 
This is genuine study funded by Beckley association, and Dr Robin Carhart-Harris has performed his work supervised by David Nutt. Just because blood flow diminishes in certain area does not at all mean that 'you are in a worse state' or that its in any way unhealthy, which is of course the interpretation the sensationalists or paranoid might make, but not in the publication itself.

This is peer-reviewed science from a good scientific journal (journal of psychopharmacology), its not fallible like Nixon drug propaganda. Thats the good thing with science, you can't make something up out of your ass because experiments can be repeated and proven false if so.

He presented his work at the Breaking Convention and he didnt make any negative interpretation of the results, its just showing what is happening at a certain level of brain action. Interpretation and implications are still up for graps, and will depend on further testing.
 
endlessness said:
This is genuine study funded by Beckley association, and Dr Robin Carhart-Harris has performed his work supervised by David Nutt. Just because blood flow diminishes in certain area does not at all mean that 'you are in a worse state' or that its in any way unhealthy, which is of course the interpretation the sensationalists or paranoid might make, but not in the publication itself.

This is peer-reviewed science from a good scientific journal (journal of psychopharmacology), its not fallible like Nixon drug propaganda. Thats the good thing with science, you can't make something up out of your ass because experiments can be repeated and proven false if so.

He presented his work at the Breaking Convention and he didnt make any negative interpretation of the results, its just showing what is happening at a certain level of brain action. Interpretation and implications are still up for graps, and will depend on further testing.
Click to expand...


I agree with endless for the most part. However just because it's published in a peer review journal does NOT make it valid. Plenty of non valid science gets by the referees. It's actually a fairly corrupt system to be honest....let me rephrase that...at times it is a fairly corrupt system.

Also Note that increased blood flow in these areas is associated with depression. A decrease in blood flow is a good thing.

Also the old "drugs eat holes in your brain" BS comes to mind here. A while back they were showing brain blood flow maps for drug users vs non users and many of them were showing giant holes. The media immediately picked up on this and started saying that drugs eat holes in your brain. This is were the MDMA eats holes in your brain BS comes from. It's simply not true and it's misleading.

Personally I believe this research, but like endless said it's obviously sensationalized...but then that's what the media does.
 
joedirt said:
I agree with endless for the most part. However just because it's published in a peer review journal does NOT make it valid. Plenty of non valid science gets by the referees. It's actually a fairly corrupt system to be honest....let me rephrase that...at times it is a fairly corrupt system.

Also Note that increased blood flow in these areas is associated with depression. A decrease in blood flow is a good thing.

Also the old "drugs eat holes in your brain" BS comes to mind here. A while back they were showing brain blood flow maps for drug users vs non users and many of them were showing giant holes. The media immediately picked up on this and started saying that drugs eat holes in your brain. This is were the MDMA eats holes in your brain BS comes from. It's simply not true and it's misleading.

Personally I believe this research, but like endless said it's obviously sensationalized...but then that's what the media does.
Click to expand...

Yeah you are right not all peer-reviewed published research is infallible, but im sure you agree its a pretty damn good system for making a first important screening of information, and essential for science nowadays. After that, one can also look at the reputation of the specific journal and last (and maybe most important), specially if any decisions are going to be taken from the conclusions, is to read critically the publication itself. Sometimes the methodology and results may be sound, but one may disagree with the conclusions. Other times one may find fault in the methodology. If one has a knowledge in the area of research, it becomes pretty clear what the potential issues might be, or if its good research. Otherwise, if one is not knowledgeable, its recommended to submit it to people who do know and ask for their opinions.

With all of these kind of filters, then most likely one can find what is good information and what is not.

With this being said, I do not have access to the publication, my university does not have that subscription, but from the presentation at the conference and the description of the research, it seemed pretty sound. Can anybody get the paper and attach here please?
 
This was already known. Short-term effects don't say much about the possible harm a substance could cause on the long term.

Maybe the therapeutic effects of psilocin are the result of a sort of rebounce-effect?

I find the idea that psilocin causes simmilar brainwave activity as meditation does a bit odd. You would think the attitude of a person under the influence of psychedelic's matters a great deal. I can hardly imagine that a person having a panick attack has the same brainwave patterns as a meditating monk.
 
Psilocybin needs dephosphorylation to psilocin before it can exert its psychic effects; this is achieved by firstly the HCl in the stomach and then by the enzyme alkaline phosphatase which is present in the intestinal lining cells and the liver (plus its found in white certain blood cells, the kidney, the bone and placenta-but these are less relevant to activating psilocybin).

The areas which are shown to have reduced flow on fMRI scans are like integration centres which ,when subjected to reduced flow, allow a loosening of associations and a less predictable idea of 'what comes next' compared to the normal state.

Although ethically unsound, I wonder if the scans of someone having a positive experience would differ from a real head-battering trip..........?
 
Corpus, I dont think it necessarily has to be ethically unsound, if you dont induce it on purpose.

In these researches, even in safe settings there are usually a couple of research subjects that describe feeling affraid or anxious and having 'negative' experiences. Maybe not as bad as if its a really hectic setting but still.... Maybe there could be some easy button system so that people pressed to mark when they felt negative or positive, stressfull or calm moments (or encouraging them to describe it when its happening), and then this could be compared to the fMRI scans or other measures and see if there are changes ?
 
The experiment would be more ethical if you did something like this for each experimental subject.

endlessness, it looks like this hasn't been published as a paper yet. Google Scholar doesn't have any record of it, but does register the preliminary of testing effects of simulated fMRI on psilocybin subjects.
 
I agree Endlessness, it need not be ethically unsound but as we all know, a little anxiety on psychedelics and the kind of state where ones thoughts loop and loop in an all-encompassing fashion, where the only way out is suicide or parenteral antipsychotics, are significantly different.Whether this would reveal altered flow in other areas is an interesting thought to ponder.
 
Yeah thats true, I dont remember reading about extreme negative reactions in any of the controlled psilocybin experiments.

What about with DMT and for example that dude described by Strassman that he felt he was being raped by aligators? Maybe then one could see some difference? Or maybe heaven and hell experiences both look the same in brain scans?
 
That IS the question-Do Heaven and Hell experiences result from the altered flow in the same areas only?

I also wonder if bigger doses could have additional effects on other brain areas not affected by the doses used in the study we are discussing.This is not beyond the realms of possibility.
 
I wonder how much tripping in the tube contributed to the results. It could be that there's a vastly different sort of activity happening when the person isn't being scanned.
 
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