Pup Tentacle
lettuce
Ufostrahlen said:
sage advise
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question for those who read Carlos Castaneda books
- Thread starter liklyut
- Start date
sage advise
smokerx
ThGiL fO TiRipS
I love all his books and it does not matter if the story is real or not. The things his talking about did not came from his head that is for sure.
I believe this may be a wisdom of some very ancient civilization.
I choose to believe that Don Juan existed. Also if I remember it right Carlose's son said that his father took him to mexico few times when he was very little and he did meat Don Juan. He was just a little boy so he could not remember him in details but he definitely remembers a guy that looked like Don Juan (as described in his books)
Also his wife believed that Don Juan was not a fiction friend of Carlos.
So believe it or not the wisdom is there who ever gave it to us. It will not disappear just because you deny Don Juan. That is not the point of the books anyway. The books have lot to offer to those who know how to read them and how to understand them.
The same as with bible. One will read it and say its made up story and some will find the wisdom in there and his life will change for ever.
Lets face it my friends those books are not for everyone
I believe this may be a wisdom of some very ancient civilization.
I choose to believe that Don Juan existed. Also if I remember it right Carlose's son said that his father took him to mexico few times when he was very little and he did meat Don Juan. He was just a little boy so he could not remember him in details but he definitely remembers a guy that looked like Don Juan (as described in his books)
Also his wife believed that Don Juan was not a fiction friend of Carlos.
So believe it or not the wisdom is there who ever gave it to us. It will not disappear just because you deny Don Juan. That is not the point of the books anyway. The books have lot to offer to those who know how to read them and how to understand them.
The same as with bible. One will read it and say its made up story and some will find the wisdom in there and his life will change for ever.
Lets face it my friends those books are not for everyone
ॐ
Psilosopher
I found "Journey To Ixtlan" and "A Seperate Reality" for one euro a piece in a second-hand bookstore when I went christmas shopping. I have yet to read them since I'm reading Stamets' books at the moment, but I thought it was a nice find. Shame to see it's fiction packaged as non-fiction, but I'm sure there is still some wisdom to be found
If you guys want to read a better story(IMO) of a guy who really has lived that life in a believable way, then go read "Ayahuasca in my Blood" by Peter Goreman. That book was more of the real deal in my opinion and one of the best personal account sort of shamanic stories I have come across.
spinCycle
Life is Art is Life
I would also recommend The Three Halves of Ino Moxo, Teachings of the Wizard of the Upper Amazon by Cesar Calvo.
www.goodreads.com
Very good book.
Three Halves of Ino Moxo : Teachings of the Wizard of t…
Award-winning Peruvian author Cesar Calvo takes us on a…
Very good book.
I remember reading that Castaneda's death was announced by his lawyer two months after it happened, and in his death certificate his job was noted as "teacher in Beverly Hills county". This was investigated by the press, and they found no mention of his name in the academic lists of Beverly Hills. This may have been his last performance.
The value I find in Castaneda's books falls within social anthropology, not because of any reliability in his reports, but rather as a reflection of a generation and its motivations, a generation of "failed seekers", as Hunter Thompson put it, fictionalizing a light in the end of the tunnel that seems to actually be there, but I don't think Castaneda found. I read the Teachings of Don Juan late enough to see a talented man who lived vicariously through his own self-made character and was charismatic and smart enough to fill a niche many people were eager to read about.
Read his books as documents of his times, but realize that, no matter how shiny, they are actually pinchbeck. We have way better traveler stories today. Jamie suggested Gorman and I totally agree. Add Harner, or Wade Davis, but don't put them in the same place as Castaneda. IMO, it's unnecessary.
The value I find in Castaneda's books falls within social anthropology, not because of any reliability in his reports, but rather as a reflection of a generation and its motivations, a generation of "failed seekers", as Hunter Thompson put it, fictionalizing a light in the end of the tunnel that seems to actually be there, but I don't think Castaneda found. I read the Teachings of Don Juan late enough to see a talented man who lived vicariously through his own self-made character and was charismatic and smart enough to fill a niche many people were eager to read about.
Read his books as documents of his times, but realize that, no matter how shiny, they are actually pinchbeck. We have way better traveler stories today. Jamie suggested Gorman and I totally agree. Add Harner, or Wade Davis, but don't put them in the same place as Castaneda. IMO, it's unnecessary.
wiglo
Rising Star
I found a bit of wisdom in his books. I read them over a decade ago, just before I discovered DMT and Ayahuasca. I was gifted all of his books and I read most of them, not all. I was not aware of the fraudulent claims at the time and only discovered this after the fact, but I always questioned the validity of his words.
During the time that I was reading Castaneda, I was starting to wake up. My "3rd eye" was opening here and there and I was able to accomplish some seemingly impossible, improbable and at times MAGICAL things. I won't go into detail here, but I can safely say I was blowing my own mind and it coincided with the time frame that I had discovered his books, DMT and Ayahuasca.
The truths for me are very simple. I enjoyed some of his books. I took them at face value. In my psychedelic explorations with psilocybin, LSD and Peyote, I had gained a bit of knowledge that resonated with some of the things Castaneda wrote about. I was fascinated because this was my first foray outside of Huxley, into someone else's world of entheogens and spirituality. By the time I discovered DMT, I had already finished four of his books in the order published. I had already started to disagree with many of his points, while others blew my mind just a little bit. I began to question the nature of his words even further. Many of his points seemed illogical while others seemed utterly fabricated or misinterpreted. I began to recognize that many of his "techniques" and "beliefs" were not beneficial to my growth as a human being.
I even toyed with the idea that if Don Juan actually existed, Castaneda must have pissed him off something good because the rest of his books made little to no sense at all. I wondered if Don Juan decided to stop his teachings because Castaneda, either didn't live up to his expectations or used his knowledge for reasons other than the Yaqui way of life. It stopped resonating very quickly with me.
After my DMT and Ayahuasca experiences, my inner knowledge completely unfolded and my former belief systems were shattered. All of a sudden, the teachings of Don Juan made absolutely no sense to me in regards to what I had just experienced with Ayahuasca. I almost felt as if Castaneda's audience was duped into believing nonsensical garbage from a guy who misinterpreted knowledge gained from psychedelics.
It WAS the 60s after all and it was the thing to do at the time.
Then I researched him more and more. All of a sudden, I discovered those crazy videos where he teaches people modified versions of kung-fu and tai chi and called it Yaqui power moves. Garbage. His group of women who followed him seemed cultish at it's worst. I tried reading the rest of this books and found them utterly disappointing. I recognized immediately the commercial aspects of ALL of his writing. I found that concept rather brilliant on his part. Self made millionaire who wrote ideas and concepts that many have claimed are just a collection of multiple belief systems and not based on serious anthropology at all.
TL;DR, interesting books, non-fiction. There's some interesting stuff in there for ME, but as with all written word, it is open to your interpretations and there is much to be learned from reading between the lines. I don't follow that whole "you're a warrior" concepts because in my belief system, we evolve into many forms within our existences and should never be pigeon-holed into just one. How are we expected to evolve if you're set to be ONE thing for your entire existence?
Thanks for posting that question!
During the time that I was reading Castaneda, I was starting to wake up. My "3rd eye" was opening here and there and I was able to accomplish some seemingly impossible, improbable and at times MAGICAL things. I won't go into detail here, but I can safely say I was blowing my own mind and it coincided with the time frame that I had discovered his books, DMT and Ayahuasca.
The truths for me are very simple. I enjoyed some of his books. I took them at face value. In my psychedelic explorations with psilocybin, LSD and Peyote, I had gained a bit of knowledge that resonated with some of the things Castaneda wrote about. I was fascinated because this was my first foray outside of Huxley, into someone else's world of entheogens and spirituality. By the time I discovered DMT, I had already finished four of his books in the order published. I had already started to disagree with many of his points, while others blew my mind just a little bit. I began to question the nature of his words even further. Many of his points seemed illogical while others seemed utterly fabricated or misinterpreted. I began to recognize that many of his "techniques" and "beliefs" were not beneficial to my growth as a human being.
I even toyed with the idea that if Don Juan actually existed, Castaneda must have pissed him off something good because the rest of his books made little to no sense at all. I wondered if Don Juan decided to stop his teachings because Castaneda, either didn't live up to his expectations or used his knowledge for reasons other than the Yaqui way of life. It stopped resonating very quickly with me.
After my DMT and Ayahuasca experiences, my inner knowledge completely unfolded and my former belief systems were shattered. All of a sudden, the teachings of Don Juan made absolutely no sense to me in regards to what I had just experienced with Ayahuasca. I almost felt as if Castaneda's audience was duped into believing nonsensical garbage from a guy who misinterpreted knowledge gained from psychedelics.
It WAS the 60s after all and it was the thing to do at the time.
Then I researched him more and more. All of a sudden, I discovered those crazy videos where he teaches people modified versions of kung-fu and tai chi and called it Yaqui power moves. Garbage. His group of women who followed him seemed cultish at it's worst. I tried reading the rest of this books and found them utterly disappointing. I recognized immediately the commercial aspects of ALL of his writing. I found that concept rather brilliant on his part. Self made millionaire who wrote ideas and concepts that many have claimed are just a collection of multiple belief systems and not based on serious anthropology at all.
TL;DR, interesting books, non-fiction. There's some interesting stuff in there for ME, but as with all written word, it is open to your interpretations and there is much to be learned from reading between the lines. I don't follow that whole "you're a warrior" concepts because in my belief system, we evolve into many forms within our existences and should never be pigeon-holed into just one. How are we expected to evolve if you're set to be ONE thing for your entire existence?
Thanks for posting that question!
Agave
Rising Star
I read several of Castaneda's books back in '73 and '74 during my last years of high school. About the same time I had a couple of my first LSD and mushroom trips. It was an amazing time and I was completely enthralled with the Don Juan mystique. I dreamed of going out and finding my own Don Juan. It expanded me in a lot of ways and in other ways it made me a little confused. Most of us back then assumed it was all gospel, We had no way of knowing that there were a few problems with Carlos's tales.
Soon after, I became interested in anthropology and indigenous peoples, looking for the same thrill I got from Casteneda. Most of it was fairly mundane but some things made me eventually realize that what Casteneda was selling was a type of adventure story that was ripe for that time period (much like Wiglo has already stated). I began to think it was odd that Castenada never mentioned any of the other medicnal plants that grow all over the sonoran desert, Only the more popular hallucinigens. As a shaman, I thought it was odd that Don Juan never seemed to do any ordinary healing work on the local population. Then, I think that after the first 3 or 4 books, They never used any power plants again. Right about the same time drug use began to be heavily scrutinized in current society and looked down on in popular media. All that was before personal information about the man began to surface and he kind of started to get caught in his own web.
Anyhow, that said, I think Casteneda did a lot of good research even if most of it was in the library, and he was able to craft that into some pretty good stories and even a few threads of truth and impressive concepts. It's been so long ago that I read his books and it's possible some of my memories are way off base, but I guess I'm glad I read them for no other reason than waking me to the mysteries beyond ordinary reality... even if most of it was fictional.
One last thing. Can somebody tell me where this "Toltec knowledge" stuff is coming from? Seems to me that there is very little information out there about the ancient Toltecs except for a few architectural ruins, and yet there is some kind of metaphysical how to manual left behind? I smell bs, but who knows, I really have never tried looking into it. I have never really read a Miguel Ruiz book, maybe he explains it's origins in there. What little I have read seems like pretty typical new age thought.
Soon after, I became interested in anthropology and indigenous peoples, looking for the same thrill I got from Casteneda. Most of it was fairly mundane but some things made me eventually realize that what Casteneda was selling was a type of adventure story that was ripe for that time period (much like Wiglo has already stated). I began to think it was odd that Castenada never mentioned any of the other medicnal plants that grow all over the sonoran desert, Only the more popular hallucinigens. As a shaman, I thought it was odd that Don Juan never seemed to do any ordinary healing work on the local population. Then, I think that after the first 3 or 4 books, They never used any power plants again. Right about the same time drug use began to be heavily scrutinized in current society and looked down on in popular media. All that was before personal information about the man began to surface and he kind of started to get caught in his own web.
Anyhow, that said, I think Casteneda did a lot of good research even if most of it was in the library, and he was able to craft that into some pretty good stories and even a few threads of truth and impressive concepts. It's been so long ago that I read his books and it's possible some of my memories are way off base, but I guess I'm glad I read them for no other reason than waking me to the mysteries beyond ordinary reality... even if most of it was fictional.
One last thing. Can somebody tell me where this "Toltec knowledge" stuff is coming from? Seems to me that there is very little information out there about the ancient Toltecs except for a few architectural ruins, and yet there is some kind of metaphysical how to manual left behind? I smell bs, but who knows, I really have never tried looking into it. I have never really read a Miguel Ruiz book, maybe he explains it's origins in there. What little I have read seems like pretty typical new age thought.
Yup...exactly. This is exactly why I stopped being a zipper head and started to actually look for credibility in the claims of ancestry and ancient wisdom of these best selling million dollar books and lectures tours.Agave said:
If people took 10 min our of their day for some of these books they accept as absolute they would see that these "deliberate creation", "power of intention" and teaching of Don Juan may feel good and entertain but have zero credibility as far as historical or anthropological. Many of these books make charlatans rich and its obvious to me now their intention is fame and profit.
Totlec wisdom is just the newest version of good ideas sold as anthropological fact. Its all B.S. in regards to historical ties folks. Its great ideas and ways to live sold in a package of deceit to get you to pass the good recommendation on to sell more books and lectures halls. IMO, not all but a lot of these new age type writers and chanelers.
Example- The 4 agreements...:? Anyone with a decent heart and working mind could come up with that best selling 100 page manual sold to the masses as Toltec wisdom. If you need a 20 dollar 100 page soft cover book to teach you that speaking accurately, and not taking things personally then your just not thinking hard enough.
SpartanII
Rising Star
“All paths are the same: they lead nowhere. ... Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn't, it is of no use. Both paths lead nowhere; but one has a heart, the other doesn't. One makes for a joyful journey; as long as you follow it, you are one with it. The other will make you curse your life. One makes you strong; the other weakens you.”
"Self-importance is our greatest enemy. Think about it - what weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellowmen. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone"
"You should not have remorse for anything you have done, because to isolate one's acts as being mean, or ugly, or evil is to place an unwarranted importance on the self. Well-being is a condition one has to groom, a condition one has to become acquainted with in order to seek it. You don't know what well-being is, because you have never experienced it. Well-being is an achievement one has to deliberately seek.
In order to accomplish the feat of making yourself miserable you have to work in a most intense fashion. It is absurd you have never realized you could work just the same in making yourself complete and strong. The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same."
“The basic difference between an ordinary man and a warrior is that a warrior takes everything as a challenge while an ordinary man takes everything as a blessing or a curse.”
“To seek freedom is the only driving force I know. Freedom to fly off into that infinity out there. Freedom to dissolve; to lift off; to be like the flame of a candle, which, in spite of being up against the light of a billion stars, remains intact, because it never pretended to be more than what it is: a mere candle.”
“Death is the only wise advisor that we have. Whenever you feel, as you always do, that everything is going wrong and you're about to be annihilated, turn to your death and ask if that is so. Your death will tell you that you're wrong; that nothing really matters outside its touch. Your death will tell you, 'I haven't touched you yet.”
“Think about it: what weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellow men. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone.”
“We are men and our lot in life is to learn and to be hurled into inconceivable new worlds.”
“The internal dialogue is what grounds people in the daily world. The world is such and such or so and so, only because we talk to ourselves about its being such and such and so and so. The passageway into the world of shamans opens up after the warrior has learned to shut off his internal dialogue”
"To not-do what you know how to do is the key to power. In the case of looking at a tree or bush, what you know how to do is to focus immediately on the foliage. The shadows of the leaves or the spaces in between the leaves are never your concern. Start focusing on the shadows of the leaves on one single branch and then eventually work your way to the whole tree, and don't let your eyes go back to the leaves, because the first deliberate step to storing personal power is to allow the body to not-do. The body likes things like this. You can stop the world using this technique. Once you have succeeded, you must work as if nothing has happened to you and don't mention or even be concerned with any of the events you have experienced."
Don Juan/Carlos Castaneda
"Self-importance is our greatest enemy. Think about it - what weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellowmen. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone"
"You should not have remorse for anything you have done, because to isolate one's acts as being mean, or ugly, or evil is to place an unwarranted importance on the self. Well-being is a condition one has to groom, a condition one has to become acquainted with in order to seek it. You don't know what well-being is, because you have never experienced it. Well-being is an achievement one has to deliberately seek.
In order to accomplish the feat of making yourself miserable you have to work in a most intense fashion. It is absurd you have never realized you could work just the same in making yourself complete and strong. The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same."
“The basic difference between an ordinary man and a warrior is that a warrior takes everything as a challenge while an ordinary man takes everything as a blessing or a curse.”
“To seek freedom is the only driving force I know. Freedom to fly off into that infinity out there. Freedom to dissolve; to lift off; to be like the flame of a candle, which, in spite of being up against the light of a billion stars, remains intact, because it never pretended to be more than what it is: a mere candle.”
“Death is the only wise advisor that we have. Whenever you feel, as you always do, that everything is going wrong and you're about to be annihilated, turn to your death and ask if that is so. Your death will tell you that you're wrong; that nothing really matters outside its touch. Your death will tell you, 'I haven't touched you yet.”
“Think about it: what weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellow men. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone.”
“We are men and our lot in life is to learn and to be hurled into inconceivable new worlds.”
“The internal dialogue is what grounds people in the daily world. The world is such and such or so and so, only because we talk to ourselves about its being such and such and so and so. The passageway into the world of shamans opens up after the warrior has learned to shut off his internal dialogue”
"To not-do what you know how to do is the key to power. In the case of looking at a tree or bush, what you know how to do is to focus immediately on the foliage. The shadows of the leaves or the spaces in between the leaves are never your concern. Start focusing on the shadows of the leaves on one single branch and then eventually work your way to the whole tree, and don't let your eyes go back to the leaves, because the first deliberate step to storing personal power is to allow the body to not-do. The body likes things like this. You can stop the world using this technique. Once you have succeeded, you must work as if nothing has happened to you and don't mention or even be concerned with any of the events you have experienced."
Don Juan/Carlos Castaneda
Saprtan3- some good sound ideas in some of those quotes, but if an author feels he needs the backing of a fictional character and interviews and meetings that never happened that does and would bother me.
In other words, nothing he is saying is all that amazing or beyond our own comprehension and creativity. So why pretend it came from a fictitious brujo.
Im not saying i found CC books worthless, but the moment I self discovered and knew he was making things up I lost interest. For me character means a lot. Otherwise
C.C. was in the beginning days of a very lucrative spiritual movement and still gets cited and quoted by many other best selling new age millionaires bullshiters like Depak Chopra ext further giving him credibility.
If a persons ideas and practices are sound and good then they shoudlnt try to hide behind some made up brujo, or Toltec wisdom. Just write it and let it resonate or not resonate with people.
IMO, people like CC try to manipulate peoples resonance by portraying some ancient brown peoples thoughts as their own.
But Ill stop bashing the guy now and am happy you found so much good things in those books that have bettered your life.
Its just for me, character matters a LOT and a man that writes some beautiful happy feeling words to live by under false pretenses and doesn't live by them his self, but instead treats woman as a misogynist and cruel his whole life. Ad to that allegations of child abuse and leading followers in a cultist manner...well, he is just not an author for me no matter how profound his words.
In other words, nothing he is saying is all that amazing or beyond our own comprehension and creativity. So why pretend it came from a fictitious brujo.
Im not saying i found CC books worthless, but the moment I self discovered and knew he was making things up I lost interest. For me character means a lot. Otherwise
C.C. was in the beginning days of a very lucrative spiritual movement and still gets cited and quoted by many other best selling new age millionaires bullshiters like Depak Chopra ext further giving him credibility.
If a persons ideas and practices are sound and good then they shoudlnt try to hide behind some made up brujo, or Toltec wisdom. Just write it and let it resonate or not resonate with people.
IMO, people like CC try to manipulate peoples resonance by portraying some ancient brown peoples thoughts as their own.
But Ill stop bashing the guy now and am happy you found so much good things in those books that have bettered your life.
Its just for me, character matters a LOT and a man that writes some beautiful happy feeling words to live by under false pretenses and doesn't live by them his self, but instead treats woman as a misogynist and cruel his whole life. Ad to that allegations of child abuse and leading followers in a cultist manner...well, he is just not an author for me no matter how profound his words.
MyMomSaysImCool
Rising Star
The Teachings of Don Juan was one the first books I read about psychedelics. I was pretty inthralled but by the end I thought the story reeked of BS. I agree with what a lot of people have already said about the topic: there are some real gems in his writings but the guy is an unethical fraud. Right after I read his book I googled "Castaneda Fraud" and this popped up: http://www.salon.com/2007/04/12/castaneda/ Pretty disturbing stuff. People were asking for an article and this one basically covers it. If this article is even half accurate then the guy was a dangerous nut and a pretty dark character. I can't believe the University of CA still publishes his book as anthropology...But hey, I guess it sells.
remediosvaro
Rising Star
my dad met him and had drinks with him. he said the spirit guides etc are all fictional
Apologies I'm not addressing the OP directly, but I feel the following is relevant. While not 100% factual, Castaneda brought some value to Indian studies and the psychedelic genre as a whole. Dismissing him as pure BS is a bit short-sighted IMO. While some might find him lacking, the University of California still recognizes him and his works of some merit (they gave him an honorary PhD). Regardless of your position, we owe him some thanks for advancing the psychedelic agenda here in the US at a time when these topics were taboo or unknown.
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jamie said:
^ this
that and wizard of the upper amazon are the more mind blowing books on shamanism that i've ever come across
Hieronymous
Rising Star
It's easy to dismiss CC's work as fiction now in retrospect, when it's taken out of its historical context. In it's day there wasn't much knowledge at all about the esoteric workings of South American culture because no-one really cared outside of a small group of historians and anthropologists etc.
Other than idea of a "witchdoctor" with a bone through his nose stirring a cauldron most westerners had no idea about shamanism or anything associated with it.
I loved reading CC's works, at the time my friends were reading things like Huckleberry Finn, Moby Dick and Treasure Island etc with their predictable fairy tale type plots. I was reading stuff like A Separate reality & Journey to Ixtlan and they blew my mind.
He made a lot of stuff up, but I found his work much more interesting than anything we were offered to read at school.
Other than idea of a "witchdoctor" with a bone through his nose stirring a cauldron most westerners had no idea about shamanism or anything associated with it.
I loved reading CC's works, at the time my friends were reading things like Huckleberry Finn, Moby Dick and Treasure Island etc with their predictable fairy tale type plots. I was reading stuff like A Separate reality & Journey to Ixtlan and they blew my mind.
He made a lot of stuff up, but I found his work much more interesting than anything we were offered to read at school.