Questioning the toxicity of Ibotenic acid

[RoundAbout]

I don't have access to the full study from my computer. It's not my choice…
Could you copy and paste the section that says that the mice who were given only ibotenic acid orally remained *impaired* after 12 weeks?

I use Sci-hub, it is free. If I'm misunderstanding, I can upload it later if it's not available currently for some reason. This isn't productive.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Sci-hub doesn't work on my computer because it's old. Thanks in advance! I'd like to see:

Proof that the mice receiving ONLY ibotenic acid orally were permanently impaired, and
The mg/kg dosage equal to that of what would be typical for a human to ingest.

Awaiting that info. Otherwise, I am not convinced.

 

[RoundAbout]

Sci-hub doesn't work on my computer because it's old.

Apparently that one is too recent to be available via Sci-hub (given the current situation). I've attached the article anyways.

Don't bother reading it, it will be entirely unconvincing to you. As I said, it is not the greatest study. There are so many criticisms you can raise, many of which would be interesting to look into. I am not going to spend time trying to understand ibotenic acid's pharmacokinetics and dosage scaling in rats with you while you argue in bad faith. Dosages do not scale like that. Look at pretty much any study with model organisms (e.g. caffeine in rats). Previous to this, you had already moved the goal posts up so that absolutely nothing currently available will be worth your consideration.

I view this situation as being similar to gramine in Phalaris. There are no good studies giving healthy young people gramine until they have brain damage, so it's effects are unclear (that is a disingenuous comparison, gramine is an interesting case, but...). Then it is demonstrated that it is easy for the average person to separate gramine from DMT. So maybe gramine is neurotoxic, maybe it isn't, so spending a little longer to remove it seems like the more relevant point. Hence the "red herrings" I've been raising. I wish I had known how to prepare the caps slightly differently in the past.

I don't accept good feelings as an argument against potential brain damage. And I'm sure even that is a controversial view, which I have absolutely no interest in defending.

Maybe there is a safe dose given appropriate preparation.

This is one of the first things I said. I did not mean eliminating all the ibotenic acid. We all know the dose makes the poison (after considering ROA, individual variation, etc.).

 

[RhythmSpring]

...it will be entirely unconvincing to you. As I said, it is not the greatest study. There are so many criticisms you can raise...

This has been my point all along.

 

[RhythmSpring]

I will still hold that raw Amanita muscaria mushrooms are safe to eat, and will still bump this thread as long as I see and hear people regurgitating the myth that they are poisonous or somehow harmful to the body.

Sure, you'll get an upset stomach, or diarrhea, or even vomit if you eat a lot.

You get those things on ayahuasca.

Do people die? No.

Do people get organ damage? No.

Thank you for listening.

 

[RoundAbout]

Proof that the mice receiving ONLY ibotenic acid orally were permanently impaired, and The mg/kg dosage equal to that of what would be typical for a human to ingest.

Awaiting that info. Otherwise, I am not convinced.

Although I don't think it is particularly relevant (as doses cannot be arbitrarily equated between organisms), the dose given to mice was 1.0mg/kg, which happens to be comparable to use in humans (and lower than high doses in humans). This dose produced impairment detectable weeks later (even when administered to mature mice, i.e. 10 weeks old). The behavioural effects are consistent with brain damage from excitotoxicity.

I will still hold that raw Amanita muscaria mushrooms are safe to eat, and will still bump this thread as long as I see and hear people regurgitating the myth that they are poisonous or somehow harmful to the body.

Sure, you'll get an upset stomach, or diarrhea, or even vomit if you eat a lot.

You get those things on ayahuasca.

Do people die? No.

Do people get organ damage? No.

Thank you for listening.

You believe raw amanitas are not harmful at typical doses. OK. We all have different beliefs and amounts of risk tolerance.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I will still hold that raw Amanita muscaria mushrooms are safe to eat, and will still bump this thread as long as I see and hear people regurgitating the myth that they are poisonous or somehow harmful to the body.

Sure, you'll get an upset stomach, or diarrhea, or even vomit if you eat a lot.

You get those things on ayahuasca.

Do people die? No.

Do people get organ damage? No.

Thank you for listening.

The Deceptive Mushroom: Accidental Amanita muscaria Poisoning

Amanita muscaria is considered to be one of the most remarkable and beautiful mushrooms. It has a red or orange cap covered with small white plaques and its distinctive appearance makes accidental and severe intoxication very rare. Its consumption is ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

One love

 

[dreamer042]

Wikipedia states:
"Most of ingested ibotenic acid is probably decarboxylated into muscimol so the effects of ingesting ibotenic acid are similar to muscimol's effects.[10]"

With the following reference:
Michelot, Didier; Melendez-Howell, Leda Maria (2003). "Amanita muscaria: chemistry, biology, toxicology, and ethnomycology" (PDF). Mycological Research. 107 (2): 131–146. doi:10.1017/s0953756203007305. PMID 12747324.

My question is, why even risk the potential of neurotoxicity when a quick heat treatment will ensure the decarboxylation takes place before it ever enters your body.

Seems a bit silly to argue over something that's so easily mitigated.

My $0.02

 

[Tony6Strings]

You CAN die from eating amanitas. Count Achilles de Vecchj died from eating a huge breakfast of amanita muscaria he mistook for edible species. Supposedly his convulsions broke the bed he died in. This was in 1897 and was one of the reasons people became interested in identifying mushrooms.

 

[Dirty T]

Sci-hub doesn't work on my computer because it's old.

Apparently that one is too recent to be available via Sci-hub (given the current situation). I've attached the article anyways.

Don't bother reading it, it will be entirely unconvincing to you. As I said, it is not the greatest study. There are so many criticisms you can raise, many of which would be interesting to look into. I am not going to spend time trying to understand ibotenic acid's pharmacokinetics and dosage scaling in rats with you while you argue in bad faith. Dosages do not scale like that. Look at pretty much any study with model organisms (e.g. caffeine in rats). Previous to this, you had already moved the goal posts up so that absolutely nothing currently available will be worth your consideration.

I view this situation as being similar to gramine in Phalaris. There are no good studies giving healthy young people gramine until they have brain damage, so it's effects are unclear (that is a disingenuous comparison, gramine is an interesting case, but...). Then it is demonstrated that it is easy for the average person to separate gramine from DMT. So maybe gramine is neurotoxic, maybe it isn't, so spending a little longer to remove it seems like the more relevant point. Hence the "red herrings" I've been raising. I wish I had known how to prepare the caps slightly differently in the past.

I don't accept good feelings as an argument against potential brain damage. And I'm sure even that is a controversial view, which I have absolutely no interest in defending.

Maybe there is a safe dose given appropriate preparation.

This is one of the first things I said. I did not mean eliminating all the ibotenic acid. We all know the dose makes the poison (after considering ROA, individual variation, etc.).

Just going to point out that scaling in rats isn't always the most accurate way to test toxicity. I have a male rat that had a partially deliver tail so I crushed an oxycodone 10mg pill and mixed it with water and fed it to him, he weighed about 300 grams at the time. Not only was this not close to LD50 in rats (30mg per kg oxycodone in a human is certain death) it didn't slow him down, he was bouncing off the walls with energy. I eventually performed an amputation using only local anesthesia and he was very grateful.

The idea that Ibotenic acid will just convert itself and has no harmful capacity is absurd. Absolutely decarboxylate muscaria before consumption 100% of the time, never eat them fresh. Come on, people have died.

 

[RoundAbout]

Wikipedia states:
"Most of ingested ibotenic acid is probably decarboxylated into muscimol so the effects of ingesting ibotenic acid are similar to muscimol's effects.[10]"

With the following reference:
Michelot, Didier; Melendez-Howell, Leda Maria (2003). "Amanita muscaria: chemistry, biology, toxicology, and ethnomycology" (PDF). Mycological Research. 107 (2): 131–146. doi:10.1017/s0953756203007305. PMID 12747324.

My question is, why even risk the potential of neurotoxicity when a quick heat treatment will ensure the decarboxylation takes place before it ever enters your body.

Seems a bit silly to argue over something that's so easily mitigated.

My $0.02

Probably isn't terribly certain. That review also states cooking will yield only ibotenic acid, which is incorrect as stated in the first response in the thread. The paper is linked a few responses later. What if you drink a large volume of mushroom tea on an empty stomach? Probably not decarboxylated very well at all.

Heat treatment really doesn't seem very efficient compared to boiling in acidic water. But I sound like a broken record at this point.