Questions Cybs’ Hybrid ATB “Salt” Tek

[Olles]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and to forums in general. I find it quite difficult to go through this amazing but very extensive forum to find what I'm looking for so I apologize in advance for questions which undoubtedly have been asked and answered somewhere on this platform. If anyone has tips on this I welcome every suggestion.

Ok here goes:
Cybs’ Hybrid ATB “Salt” Tek
-I've read about not heating the solution to much. +-40/45 celsius is what you want. The tek says to bring the heath bath to a boiI and turn of the heat, but then in the beginning the heat bath would be substantially higher than 40 celsius? Could you replace the heat bath with a slow cooker?
-Is soaking longer in the vinegar and base fase better? Tek said at least one hour, but maybe more is better?
-How long can I keep the base soup? Can I leave it at room temperature for a day or 2? (small fridge).
-Is slowly decreasing the temperature of the Naphtha pulls, room temp/fridge/freezer, before freezing advisable? I read it helps to form the crystals, bit don't see it in the tek.
-If the first pull doesn’t turn milky white either by itself or when I blow over the surface as someone suggested, should I evaporate before freezing?
-Is freezing longer/colder better?


Thanks

 

[blig-blug]

I'm new to this forum and to forums in general. I find it quite difficult to go through this amazing but very extensive forum to find what I'm looking for so I apologize in advance for questions which undoubtedly have been asked and answered somewhere on this platform. If anyone has tips on this I welcome every suggestion.

Yes, there is a lot and the first extraction tends to feel daunting, or at least it did for me. It's clear from your questions that you've spent some time reading and trying to understand the tek, so there's no problem even if some may have been asked before

-I've read about not heating the solution to much. +-40/45 celsius is what you want. The tek says to bring the heath bath to a boiI and turn of the heat, but then in the beginning the heat bath would be substantially higher than 40 celsius? Could you replace the heat bath with a slow cooker?

The heat bath water would be hotter indeed, but your acidic mixture wouldn't, so the mixture will heat up while the heat bath water cools down. The heat bath water will transfer energy to the acidic mixture and to the ambient, and so eventually both will reach a balance (much lower than boiling) and continue cooling down, as long as the heat is turned off. So don't worry, you are unlikely to overheat it, and you can always measure the temperature and remove the extraction vessel if it's getting too hot.

I must note that I'm not sure why the tek warns against overheating it. I'm sure there is a reason, but I don't understand why: the DMT salt is not going to be damaged by 100C or less. Aya-style brews are boiled for hours. So if anyone else knows the reason, let me know.

-Is soaking longer in the vinegar and base fase better? Tek said at least one hour, but maybe more is better?

In theory yes, and you can do freeze-thaw cycles as well. There are diminishing returns (and the effect is already not huge), so it's likely not worth it to leave it for a very long time.

-How long can I keep the base soup? Can I leave it at room temperature for a day or 2? (small fridge).

For quite a long time, a couple of days will be fine. And yes, no need to keep it cold, there's no risk of bacteria or mold because it's very basic.

-Is slowly decreasing the temperature of the Naphtha pulls, room temp/fridge/freezer, before freezing advisable? I read it helps to form the crystals, bit don't see it in the tek.

Yes, it helps to get larger crystals. In general, crystals grow bigger the slower crystallization happens.

-If the first pull doesn’t turn milky white either by itself or when I blow over the surface as someone suggested, should I evaporate before freezing?

Yes, evaporating with a fan until you see some very small crystals (looks like cloudiness) form in the surface is helpful if it seems to not be saturated enough.

-Is freezing longer/colder better?

All things equal, yes. Again, there are diminishing returns and you will hit a limit, but it's generally better. Also, make sure to not open the door (at all, if possible) and to not disturb the crystallization vessel, resist the temptation to take a look
Bear in mind that, if you reuse your solvent, any DMT that may still be there is not lost.

 

[Olles]

wow, thanks for this amazing and thorough response blig-blug! it is much appreciated!

 

[Transform]

I must note that I'm not sure why the tek warns against overheating it.

Excess heat can lead to darker, gooier product, probably through increased oligomerisation (polymer formation) once base has been added.

The pulls are done warm in order to increase the solubility of DMT in naphtha, i.e. using the same temperature-solubility gradient that makes freeze precipitation possible to maximise saturation of the naphtha. As ever, there's a sweet spot to be found - and some people even report excellent results with room-temperature pulls.

 

[blig-blug]

Excess heat can lead to darker, gooier product, probably through increased oligomerisation (polymer formation) once base has been added.

I hadn't realized this tek calls for warm pulls as well, I had only read the part of (optional) warm acidic soak. It makes sense then, I've seen first hand the consequences of overheating during pulls, I got what looked like a piece of plastic.

 

[Méchant Garçon]

Hi ! I'm also new here, hope this is a fine place for my question about this tek. I did my first extractions this past week and they went pretty well. However, I only seem to be able to pull around 2/3rds of the total nps volume out of the bottle at best. Is this normal ? Where has it gone ? I've tried tweaking the amount of salt and lye but no changes so far.
Would very much appreciate yalls input as i have not found anything about it on here

 

[redbird]

Hi ! I'm also new here, hope this is a fine place for my question about this tek. I did my first extractions this past week and they went pretty well. However, I only seem to be able to pull around 2/3rds of the total nps volume out of the bottle at best. Is this normal ? Where has it gone ? I've tried tweaking the amount of salt and lye but no changes so far.
Would very much appreciate yalls input as i have not found anything about it on here

That's pretty normal, especially if you have a particularly wide vessel. If you're using a vessel that has a narrower section, add excess water to brint the nps level to the narrower section to make it easier to pull more.
Also what you're describing is one of the reasons for doing multiple pulls. You drop 50ml of nps in, pull out 25ml, drop in 30ml, pull out 25ml, etc.
The initial "loss" of nps tends to prevent more nps from getting lost in the soup.
Edit to say: emulsions will not follow this rule so careful how you're mixing!
Also, any amount of alkaloid that is left behind in the nps not reclaimed will diffuse into the next batch of nps.
even when fully pulling all of the nps into a soda wash jar to catch impurities, you're still dealing with some left behind when you pull the nps out of the soda wash.
It's the entropy inherent in the process and it's one of the lessons the spice has to teach us perfectionists.

 

[Méchant Garçon]

Very interesting, thank you for the quick reply !

That's pretty normal, especially if you have a particularly wide vessel. If you're using a vessel that has a narrower section, add excess water to brint the nps level to the narrower section to make it easier to pull more.
Also what you're describing is one of the reasons for doing multiple pulls. You drop 50ml of nps in, pull out 25ml, drop in 30ml, pull out 25ml, etc.
The initial "loss" of nps tends to prevent more nps from getting lost in the soup. Also, any amount of alkaloid that is left behind in the nps not reclaimed will diffuse into the next batch of nps.
even when fully pulling all of the nps into a soda wash jar to catch impurities, you're still dealing with some left behind when you pull the nps out of the soda wash.
It's the entropy inherent in the process and it's one of the lessons the spice has to teach us perfectionists.

 

[Transform]

Very interesting, thank you for the quick reply !

One more thing to try is inverting a funnel of a suitable size into your soup. The NPS will be gathered up into its spout as you lower it, making the pipetting process considerably easier and more thorough.

 

[Méchant Garçon]

Thank you, I've had no issues with pipetting or emulsions so far. The separation between the two phases is clear, it's just the amount of nps "disappearing" that concerned me. It's obviously still in the bottle as the volume keeps increasing when I add more nps after a pull. I guess it just mixes with the base or the plant matter ? My MHRB could be more finely ground, dunno if that has anything to do with it

 

[Transform]

Thank you, I've had no issues with pipetting or emulsions so far. The separation between the two phases is clear, it's just the amount of nps "disappearing" that concerned me. It's obviously still in the bottle as the volume keeps increasing when I add more nps after a pull. I guess it just mixes with the base or the plant matter ? My MHRB could be more finely ground, dunno if that has anything to do with it

There's also a hard-to-recovery thin surface layer of naphtha if you're not using a narrow-necked vessel for the pulls. That's what the inverted funnel trick addresses. But now I see you're using some kind of bottle.

So, yes, there's a bit of the naphtha gets stuck in the soup during STB pulls, and the first pull is where the bark particles soak up about as much as they will.

Another factor affecting the degree of naphtha absorption is lipely to be the ratio of inner root bark to outer root bark. Highly quality, finely powdered inner root bark may well absorb proportionally less naphtha.