Really random question about not wanting to spoil a friendship

[TransistorBass]

I figure we are all relatively anonymous on here so....

Let's suppose you have a really good long-standing friend that you love dearly, though sometimes you notice this person uses racist or homophobic language, there's probably a high chance their political views are less sympathetic towards people than your own views too.

How do you deal with that?
Do you try to talk to them?

It feels like a conversation that would best play out if we'd both had some Molly with that extra layer of acceptance. I probably care more about my health than to take Molly these days.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[CosmicRiver]

I would ask myself: is it only because of ignorance or is it also because of lack of empathy?
When this happens i make it clear that i don't like homophobic, racist and ableist talks and challenge them, to start a discussion. From the discussion i understand why does the person hold such views.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Great question. The answer is contextual. Everyone is different. Some people you can have this talk with straight up, others, you have to keep throwing little pebbles in the pond over time that gears them for said conversation.

Take care of yourself in this endeavor as such an undertaking can be draining. Stay centered in self.

One love

 

[Varallo]

I figure we are all relatively anonymous on here so....

Let's suppose you have a really good long-standing friend that you love dearly, though sometimes you notice this person uses racist or homophobic language, there's probably a high chance their political views are less sympathetic towards people than your own views too.

How do you deal with that?
Do you try to talk to them?

It feels like a conversation that would best play out if we'd both had some Molly with that extra layer of acceptance. I probably care more about my health than to take Molly these days.

Thanks for any advice.

So that’s quite an difficult situation as values are usually part of what makes friendships, or at least they do for me.

What my approach would be is at some point to have an open conversation with him and gently explain what’s going on, both in terms of what he says and how it makes you feel, I think it’s important to keep the blame game far away. I also think it helps to approach this with kindness while still being very clear about what you notice, how it affects you, and why certain things are problematic. I would explicitly choose an separate moment for this so it’s not an reaction to something said moments before, this to mitigate the risk of ending up in an discussion.

I also would not expect too much from that first conversation. These things often take a long time before someone begins to reconsider ideas. Depending upon how your friend ended up with those ideas it’s going to take some considerable effort. Some people hold these views as part of their identity, which makes change more difficult. Others simply repeat what they hear around them, if your friend is of this latter type you might see progress more quickly once you share a different perspective.

Even so, the process will likely be challenging and slow. A friendship is more than the things someone says, so it’s worth looking closely at what he’s actually expressing and what that brings up for you. Pay attention to where you start feeling uncomfortable and, where your boundaries are.

 

[ShadedSelf]

What kind of conversation? What exactly is your goal? Do you want to understand their views? Do you want to change them? Do you want this person to not make those comments?

I imagine the approach would change depending on what you are trying to achieve.

In terms of dealing with that situation, Im assuming this is something that bothers you, in that case its tough, close people are the hardest to love sometimes.

 

[TheGreenPhantom]

I think it's essential to understand why your friend feels the way they do about certain groups of people, then take it from there.

How you challenge their perspectives and make them question themselves is really a personal matter. I like to keep it cute and annoying, applying steady, constant pressure with an assortment of "dad" and big-brother jokes and quips until I break them.

in any case, it takes time and effort, and is truly a labor of love that may take years before you see any results.

 

[TransistorBass]

I would ask myself: is it only because of ignorance or is it also because of lack of empathy?
When this happens i make it clear that i don't like homophobic, racist and ableist talks and challenge them, to start a discussion. From the discussion i understand why does the person hold such views.

Yeah, I don't know why they hold such views, some of it may be from the people that surround them in work places. My work places have been different to their and I know what the people are like in their workplace.

Great question. The answer is contextual. Everyone is different. Some people you can have this talk with straight up, others, you have to keep throwing little pebbles in the pond over time that gears them for said conversation.

Take care of yourself in this endeavor as such an undertaking can be draining. Stay centered in self.

One love

Its honestly emotional for me to think about having a full blown conversation, I am indeed throwing small pebbles as and when the situation arises.

So that’s quite an difficult situation as values are usually part of what makes friendships, or at least they do for me.

What my approach would be is at some point to have an open conversation with him and gently explain what’s going on, both in terms of what he says and how it makes you feel, I think it’s important to keep the blame game far away. I also think it helps to approach this with kindness while still being very clear about what you notice, how it affects you, and why certain things are problematic. I would explicitly choose an separate moment for this so it’s not an reaction to something said moments before, this to mitigate the risk of ending up in an discussion.

I also would not expect too much from that first conversation. These things often take a long time before someone begins to reconsider ideas. Depending upon how your friend ended up with those ideas it’s going to take some considerable effort. Some people hold these views as part of their identity, which makes change more difficult. Others simply repeat what they hear around them, if your friend is of this latter type you might see progress more quickly once you share a different perspective.

Even so, the process will likely be challenging and slow. A friendship is more than the things someone says, so it’s worth looking closely at what he’s actually expressing and what that brings up for you. Pay attention to where you start feeling uncomfortable and, where your boundaries are.

I know I can be blunt as F*** with them if I think there is a health issue, and have been recently from a position of love for them. The Race / Sexual orientation thing feels harder to approach. Maybe it is easier to get mashed off my face with them to have a heart to heart, though this is a situation I want to avoid as I feel I've grown-up from all the silly drugs. I've definitely approached boundaries with them before on a different easier subject and my efforts did swing their actions towards the better.

What kind of conversation? What exactly is your goal? Do you want to understand their views? Do you want to change them? Do you want this person to not make those comments?

I imagine the approach would change depending on what you are trying to achieve.

In terms of dealing with that situation, Im assuming this is something that bothers you, in that case its tough, close people are the hardest to love sometimes.

Yeah, I'd like to understand why mainly, my outlook over the past 20-30 years has moved to be more accepting. It feels like as a kid we all grew up in an era where casual racism and blunt homophobia were a common thing. I'm very keen nowadays to remove such things from life and they have no place in a modern world. And yeah, it bothers me, it could quite easily make me shed a tear.

I think it's essential to understand why your friend feels the way they do about certain groups of people, then take it from there.

How you challenge their perspectives and make them question themselves is really a personal matter. I like to keep it cute and annoying, applying steady, constant pressure with an assortment of "dad" and big-brother jokes and quips until I break them.

in any case, it takes time and effort, and is truly a labor of love that may take years before you see any results.

Yeah, keeping it light is best. We have the occasional deeper heart to heart but mostly we are based on having a laugh or being laser focused in manual work or a combo of both usually. We can be very alike but it's a bit like my views have changed as I've aged and their's have stalled somewhat (I'll give them some DMT and hope for development)!
I'm already saying things when the right situation happens, which can be as simple as explaining how we know people and have friends that are Gay / Indian etc just after they've said something about a person to my face.

I'll keep slowly chipping away.
Thanks all for the thoughts.

 

[Old_Yodal]

My thinking here is we are all different and get our information in different ways. I am sure there a many other topics where your opinions differ.
I have a friend who holds some views that I sometimes find almost offensive however I let it go because we share so many other things in common. If he brings up one of those topics I just generally go silent and that is the end of that topic. It is a way to suggest I don't want to discuss that because I have a very different view. He just gets nothing from talking about that around me. No agreement but no discussion either. He is sort of left dead in the water unless he directly asks then he will get my opinion and possibly an argument. However he doesn't ask and we move on.
One fact I do know is, I can only change myself.
I make it clear by my actions what my opinions are.

 

[TransistorBass]

My thinking here is we are all different and get our information in different ways. I am sure there a many other topics where your opinions differ.
I have a friend who holds some views that I sometimes find almost offensive however I let it go because we share so many other things in common. If he brings up one of those topics I just generally go silent and that is the end of that topic. It is a way to suggest I don't want to discuss that because I have a very different view. He just gets nothing from talking about that around me. No agreement but no discussion either. He is sort of left dead in the water unless he directly asks then he will get my opinion and possibly an argument. However he doesn't ask and we move on.
One fact I do know is, I can only change myself.
I make it clear by my actions what my opinions are.

Yep, that sounds like not being reactive to children so you encourage positive behaviour rather than chastising them for the negative.
Thanks

 

[Old_Yodal]

Yep, that sounds like not being reactive to children so you encourage positive behaviour rather than chastising them for the negative.
Thanks

We are all pretty much children most of the time.

 

[TransistorBass]

We are all pretty much children most of the time.

Haha, yep..... and neither me or my wife plan to stop being big kids!!

 

[Transform]

feels like a conversation that would best play out if we'd both had some Molly with that extra layer of acceptance. I probably care more about my health than to take Molly these days.

That's what low dose mescaline is for

I'd buy him a 'Risk' board game and a small boat for Xmas to see if he gets the point.

Has anyone designed a board game based around people-smuggling yet? Genuine question.

 

[TransistorBass]

That's what low dose mescaline is for

I'd buy him a 'Risk' board game and a small boat for Xmas to see if he gets the point.

Has anyone designed a board game based around people-smuggling yet? Genuine question.

Command & Conquer style, as a Migrant you first have to explore to find a boat sales shop or criminal gang, then you have to covertly transport said boat or yourself to the French coast before avoiding shipping and a sad looking Farage aboard his day-trip-boat, if you are really unlucky old Nige will have his 'Tommy' Gun with him spitting racist bullets.
Or you get to play as Farage and his little wee mate tiny Tommy and it's like Battleships, Hey you sunk my Dingy!
Whichever team you play on the coast guard comes and rescues people in distress.

 

[fink]

Are you certain if this friend is genuinely racist and homophobic or just has a poor sense of humour?

Are we talking ' all Gay people must die!'

Or are we talking ' a vicar, a nun and a gay man walk into a bar..'?

 

[blig-blug]

My recommendation: ask him questions and try to understand what he thinks exactly, what it implies, and why. Be genuinely curious.

In order to do so, it's important to be actually open to consider the possibility that he's partly or completely right. Not because it's likely to be the case, but because without it there can be no genuine conversation, only fighting or paternalistic mind games. I guarantee you he's very much not prepared to deal with someone genuinely curious, instead of an opponent or a (current or aspirational) member of his echo chamber.

Genuine curiosity and openness to him being right entails risk, as we all are prone to bias, and wrong to a certain extent. It also gives you the chance to better understand how people with certain beliefs see their beliefs, what emotions lead to them, and what truths are at the core of them. I believe that no ideology (a concept that to me is akin to "mind virus") can spread successfully without being partly rooted in aspects of reality, no matter how much it may twist and deform them. Often, they are based in emotions, and those emotions are real and caused by aspects of reality, regardless of whether those aspects are the ones true believers would point to or not.

Based on my personal experience with similar cases, there is a very high chance that behind his supposed ideas there is just a mix of feelings, the effects of a "political influencer" (an expression that makes me need to wash my hands after typing it), and the pleasure and relief of feeling part of a "tribe". It's very likely he has never stopped to actually think about "his" beliefs.

If that's the case, it may quickly become clear to both of you upon close examination, prompted by your genuine interest and openness. You may also discover a few blind spots of your own. However, the interest and openness need to be real and not a mind game to get over his defenses. If you want him to be honest with you and with himself, your attitude needs to be the same.

Lastly, I've observed that the political tribal markers preferred by someone often don't seem to be too strongly correlated with their actual values. For me, what is often an indicator that someone doesn't share my values is the degree of importance given to those markers, the insistence upon them, and the extent to which parading them around seems to be an important part of that person's way of being in the world.

 

[TransistorBass]

Are you certain if this friend is genuinely racist and homophobic or just has a poor sense of humour?

Are we talking ' all Gay people must die!'

Or are we talking ' a vicar, a nun and a gay man walk into a bar..'?

This is what I need to find out, it's definitely not humour and 'hopefully' nothing as extreme as the former.

My recommendation: ask him questions and try to understand what he thinks exactly, what it implies, and why. Be genuinely curious.

In order to do so, it's important to be actually open to consider the possibility that he's partly or completely right. Not because it's likely to be the case, but because without it there can be no genuine conversation, only fighting or paternalistic mind games. I guarantee you he's very much not prepared to deal with someone genuinely curious, instead of an opponent or a (current or aspirational) member of his echo chamber.

Genuine curiosity and openness to him being right entails risk, as we all are prone to bias, and wrong to a certain extent. It also gives you the chance to better understand how people with certain beliefs see their beliefs, what emotions lead to them, and what truths are at the core of them. I believe that no ideology (a concept that to me is akin to "mind virus") can spread successfully without being partly rooted in aspects of reality, no matter how much it may twist and deform them. Often, they are based in emotions, and those emotions are real and caused by aspects of reality, regardless of whether those aspects are the ones true believers would point to or not.

Based on my personal experience with similar cases, there is a very high chance that behind his supposed ideas there is just a mix of feelings, the effects of a "political influencer" (an expression that makes me need to wash my hands after typing it), and the pleasure and relief of feeling part of a "tribe". It's very likely he has never stopped to actually think about "his" beliefs.

If that's the case, it may quickly become clear to both of you upon close examination, prompted by your genuine interest and openness. You may also discover a few blind spots of your own. However, the interest and openness need to be real and not a mind game to get over his defenses. If you want him to be honest with you and with himself, your attitude needs to be the same.

Lastly, I've observed that the political tribal markers preferred by someone often don't seem to be too strongly correlated with their actual values. For me, what is often an indicator that someone doesn't share my values is the degree of importance given to those markers, the insistence upon them, and the extent to which parading them around seems to be an important part of that person's way of being in the world.

Yeah, I'm certain I find it easy to deride those whose political choices I find opposite to my own (Mostly towards Politicians if I'm honest). I'd say this is something I'm working on because i realise this is not the way to start dialogue to address or understand the issue. This is most definitely a work-in-progress, as when I have engaged with people I've found there is little reasoning with them and even when trying hard to be empathetic towards them it sadly ends in chaos. both parties start with Black & White and we cannot make Grey.

For the moment I am dealing only with the occasional comment from them or their partner mentioned their "hate" for Gay people, so thats the first part I need to understand.
The words "Hate" (and Love) are too-easily used, so I'm sure there are more shades to that hate quote above. Personally I try to find other words for Love & Hate so when I do use them they retain their meaning.

We do live in an area where the drug dealers, wannabe gangsters, idiots, bad drivers, violence, crime etc is focused more around brown-skinned people so you could argue that it's easier to be racist than not around here.
I see and react to idiots versus skin colour on a weekly basis and I try not to tar everyone with the same brush, idiots are idiots no matter what they talk like or look like.