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reasonable expectations from psychedelics

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i know it's cliche, but I sort of liken agents like bufotenine and dimethyltryptamine to a glimpse into schizophrenia...genuine hallucinations, seeing things that really aren't there. so yeah... who's to say those beings a schizo sees aren't real? if one thinks what one sees and experiences on DMT is reality, but denounces the reality of a schizotypal person, one is hypocritical.
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agree i try to make this point often to people. is one type of hallucination more real then another?? is the visions of datura any less or more real then those of spice? yes the parts of the brain being effected are different and hence a different experience but what classifies a substance's experience as more real then another substances experience?
 
the only vision swim ever had from datura was fish-eyed vision, never recollected seeing anything that wasn't there. higher doses were an incapacitated stupor followed by amnesia. salvia gave swim some vague visions, but definite alternate reality. swim is under the impression (aside from mescaline) psilocin and dmt give the most crystal clear visions and hallucinations.
 
it's pure delerium.

once took too much benztropine (an anticholinergic like atropine), and started to make some tea, forgot that I left the kettle on, and plopped down in the hallway of my parents house to study. my mother said I was mumbling incoherently.
needless to say, my parents were quite upset as I could have burned down the house. I don't remember the ordeal whatsoever

go figure, acetylcholine is responsible for memory...also involved in dreaming.
 
benzyme said:
i know it's cliche, but I sort of liken agents like bufotenine and dimethyltryptamine to a glimpse into schizophrenia...genuine hallucinations, seeing things that really aren't there. so yeah... who's to say those beings a schizo sees aren't real? if one thinks what one sees and experiences on DMT is reality, but denounces the reality of a schizotypal person, one is hypocritical.

and holding firm to any belief is potentially setting yourself up for disappointment later
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Well what you see while tripping and what a schizophrenic see's are both real like you said, however they still only exist within the beholders mind otherwise the rest of us would be able to see what they see. It's great being able to enter your own mind but it's pointless if you can't leave that world to interact with the outside world.
I do not denounce the (perception of) reality of schizophrenic people, I just think that someone that's screaming about the aliens coming to take them away or goverment conspiracy's against them is very uncomftorable and very afraid in their own mind and needs help in realising that there's really nothing to fear.
 
burnt said:
ill have to agree. i see them as a learning and recreational tool. SWIM couldn't say how many times SWIM has seen the "light" while under the influence of tryptamine substances but the conclusion when back in reality is the same.

i think society in general is having a hard time grasping what this experience means. of course language is lacking in many ways. i could only imagine what is was like when humans in the past were getting all wasted on the plants and or fungi they were eating. many people see psychedelics as a tool to touch god(s) (yes im going to use that dirty word) SWIM knows he did in his past. sometimes the awe and beauty of the experience is so powerful people assume it can't be anything else.

i think 2 schools of thought are arising on the nature of reality and consioussness both with the psychedelic revolution and scientific as well as expansion of religious thought. i wont speak of the typical monotheastic or even pagan gods because they simply are not real. one school saying that consioussness is everything and is the nature of reality and that is now taking the place of god and that all reality is just an illusion. this school of thought seems to be popular among religious physicists, buddhists, acid heads, spiritual guru type people.

the second school is the material universe school. that says reality is real we just haven't figured it all out yet. this system relies on the scientific method to learn all it can about the world life and reality. it is popular among also acid heads, physicists, other natural scientists and atheists.

does anyone see this rift developing?
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I really don't see how those to schools of thought conflict. You can see the world as marterial or as consiousness, there both just simple concepts we assign to that which we experience, both useful for figuring things out under different circumstances.
 
I just think that someone that's screaming about the aliens coming to take them away or goverment conspiracy's against them is very uncomftorable and very afraid in their own mind and needs help in realising that there's really nothing to fear.
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agree and drugging them into oblivion isn't a nice way of doing it.

I really don't see how those to schools of thought conflict. You can see the world as marterial or as consiousness, there both just simple concepts we assign to that which we experience, both useful for figuring things out under different circumstances.
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yea really it is how it is.
 
agree and drugging them into oblivion isn't a nice way of doing it.
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Oh of course not, our society seems to do what ever it can to keep people as productive and if not, out of the way as possible
 
A reasonable expectation of psychedelics?

You can expect whatever you want and you'll probably find most of it met. Expectation creates. Expectation is what defines your view on the world. So what is a reasonable expectation? I think it's reasonable to say that the use of psychedelics can change your view on the world and with that it changes the world you live in.

The "material world" as the materialistic rationalistic heirs of Descartes understand it, may or may not exist. In fact it does not even matter. All that gives it meaning: Causality, mechanics, technology, logic, mathmatics, time, energy, physics, chemistry, biology... is NOT part of that "material world". It is part of thinking and exists as ideas in our minds. Made up intellectual concepts used like oracles to predict and apply meaning to the world where none may be. But we forgot that. We use that concepts we were taught without questioning. But we should.

So what can the use of psychedelics change? It can change everything! It depends on what conclusions are drawn, what insights gained, how those are integrated... What is more valid to the individuum: Third hand experiences you were taught in school, what you watched on TV, what you learned in university or what you found when dreaming, meditating or using psychedelics? Let's see, on the one side we have intellectual concepts, on the other we have first hand experiences, intellectual concepts, first hand experiences... you decide.

Knowledge may seem to help you living in the world, but it doesn't teach you anything about it.
 
giga sorry i think i responded to all your posts today with something provoking further discussion but ill keep it going its fun hah.

The "material world" as the materialistic rationalistic heirs of Descartes understand it, may or may not exist. In fact it does not even matter. All that gives it meaning: Causality, mechanics, technology, logic, mathmatics, time, energy, physics, chemistry, biology... is NOT part of that "material world". It is part of thinking and exists as ideas in our minds. Made up intellectual concepts used like oracles to predict and apply meaning to the world where none may be. But we forgot that. We use that concepts we were taught without questioning. But we should.
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agree we should question everything. however math physics chemistry all this is about questioning. it was all about questioning why whats happening around us is happening. and its done a very good job at figuring things out that have very practical meaning in the real world.

yes the idea that a bubble of this kind of energy is this kind of atom is an explanation that makes sense and in a way hides the real core truth behind what it is. we use language to explain these things. but thats the only way our active consciouss can explain these things. i say active because we can induce the blank slate consioussness with psychs or meditation etc and then you experience things absent of all the language explanations you simply "be here now". that still doesn't make the physical or material or even unphysical (ie things we can't yet explain) any less real.

So what can the use of psychedelics change? It can change everything! It depends on what conclusions are drawn, what insights gained, how those are integrated... What is more valid to the individuum: Third hand experiences you were taught in school, what you watched on TV, what you learned in university or what you found when dreaming, meditating or using psychedelics? Let's see, on the one side we have intellectual concepts, on the other we have first hand experiences, intellectual concepts, first hand experiences... you decide.
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its more then just intellectual concepts we are actively pursuing these concepts by inventing discovering and interpreting the world around us. of course experience is a very important thing and helps you come to conclusions about the world we all do it! but never forget that these are your conclusions and that your conclusions can be wrong just like anybody else's.
 
Burnt, all that intellectual concepts have one purpose: Security and comfort. They hold no true answers. Surely, we have great technology and those concepts made it possible to communicate and develop the means to make that technology, but absolutely nothing it has ever answered. What science delivers is a (not yet) closed system of causality and it should be rationally obvious to anyone on first sight, that such a concept, that answers everything it contains as a cause of something else it also contains, that we have a circle without beginning or end. In simple words: Who was there first, the hen or the egg? Science is a chain of causality like a snake that bites itself. A caused B, B caused C and C caused A. Everything is the cause of everything. I guess you see the problem.

I am not an enemy of science, but the materialistic and rationalistic world view brought us into a bad situation. We live by the code of materialism and what can not be measured by material means simply does not exist for most. At least no one who likes to be taken seriously would discuss it publicly or admit to use that "superstition" when making decisions.
 
well yea i'll have to admit i think people are caught up in this paradigm of materialism but its not really all about materialism. we know the universe contains things that so far have no known kind of material make up like dark matter etc. i just like the things that science and rational thought processes discover. i'm not arrogant enough to say that this is the way it is an defend it in spite of all the things we can't explain. i am happy there are things we can't explain it keeps the whole process interesting.

but we do have a point that started everything we just can't figure out exactly what happened then. the big bang or some other similar cosmic event. that started everything (or continued what was before). there could be alternatives but still its all good.

i think i need to take a break from discussing all this kind of stuff though :) just think and be. haha
 
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