Recommend a sublingual harmala extract dosage?

[embracethevoid]

What kind of dose would you need for rue extract to induce psychedelia? I hear you only need around 30mg for MAO inhibition but how much do you need to increase the dose to get serious effects from rue alone? Doses in mg/kg would be great.

 

[Jees]

I have another question that might affect yours:

is there a potency difference between harmalas precipitated by salt (Manske) and those precipitated by a base agent? The yield difference is huge, can we say that the spectrum/potency is also different?

But what you call psychedelic? Is a nice glow psychedelic? Must there be visuals?

Erowid says psychedelic starts at 200mg oral, I have same impression.
Last time I had 3.7 mg/kg (260mg) oral and was sure psychedelic, should work with less, not going that much anymore because of the harshness.

BTW, I find the mentioned 30mg for maoi-functioning rather small, where did you get this info please? In practice I work between 1.5 - 2 mg/kg for maoi purposes.

 

[quetzalcoatl42]

is there a potency difference between harmalas precipitated by salt (Manske) and those precipitated by a base agent? The yield difference is huge, can we say that the spectrum/potency is also different?

I'd also like to know that.

 

[jamie]

30mg sublingual sounds about right for sufficint mao inhibition..and for me at least some visionary or entheogenic effects. 50mg sublingual can be a large dose. It is very active sublingual. Oral doses are naturally might higher so dont go off of information on oral dosing when concidering sublingual.

 

[MelCat]

is there a potency difference between harmalas precipitated by salt (Manske) and those precipitated by a base agent? The yield difference is huge, can we say that the spectrum/potency is also different?

There will always be some extra weight to account for the extra salt molecules. The potency depends on how much salt was used during the manske. The more salt contamination, the weaker the potency.

In the Tao of Rue it outlines the different salt ratio's and their outcomes. I prefer the Phlux-'s variation for the final product after many, many filter sessions. The potency is on par if not better than with freebase and since it's in salt form, it hits you a lot faster. A little bit goes a loooong way.

If you want to verify the dosage and account for salt contamination, it's best to start out with a known amount of pretty clean freebase harmalas, dissolve them into a small amount of warmish/hot vinegar and then perform the manske. This will give you a rough estimate as to what you're working with.

BTW, I find the mentioned 30mg for maoi-functioning rather small, where did you get this info please? In practice I work between 1.5 - 2 mg/kg for maoi purposes.

As Jamie said in the previous post but I just wanted to reiterate, sublingual dosages and oral dosages are two completely different animals. When dosing sublingually, especially with pure harmala hcl, it doesn't take much at all for the effect to kick in. It typically doesn't last as long as if you had taken them orally though. Sublingual harmala usage doesn't do anything for oral spice as it never really reaches the gut but it does potentiate other routes of administration.

... where did you get this info please? ...

Check the DMT Dosage Guide in my signature.

 

[jamie]

"The potency depends on how much salt was used during the manske. The more salt contamination, the weaker the potency."

If you do a proper recrystalization at the end the ammount of salt used should not be a factor at all. A water recrystalization solves this problem. Simoly salting out crystals, collecting and drying is like only doing half of a tek..so yes if you just do that it will have salt contam. You have to do a freeze precipitation from just a small ammount of water on the impure manske crystals.

 

[MelCat]

What kind of dose would you need for rue extract to induce psychedelia? I hear you only need around 30mg for MAO inhibition but how much do you need to increase the dose to get serious effects from rue alone? Doses in mg/kg would be great.

It really depends on the level of purity of the extract and the route of administration.

30mg might be a bit hefty to begin with for sublingual but would most likely provide some effects. There might also be some unwanted effects too such as headaches and general wobbliness so be aware that moving around might not be the best idea.

If dosing orally, 200mg would be a good place to start.

Doses in mg/kg are hard to say because of the mentioned purity issue and how people react to harmalas in general.

As with everything else, it's best to start low and work your way up.

This will allow you to know how your body will respond and you can then adjust it accordingly.

 

[MelCat]

"The potency depends on how much salt was used during the manske. The more salt contamination, the weaker the potency."

If you do a proper recrystalization at the end the ammount of salt used should not be a factor at all. A water recrystalization solves this problem. Simoly salting out crystals, collecting and drying is like only doing half of a tek..so yes if you just do that it will have salt contam. You have to do a freeze precipitation from just a small ammount of water on the impure manske crystals.

I wasn't aware of the water re-x tek.

Just to verify, dissolve the harmala hcl in a minimal amount of water and freeze precip? What next?

If you want to outline it in another topic, I'll add it to the Tao and link back to it on the next update.

 

[Jees]

30mg sublingual sounds about right for sufficint mao inhibition..and for me at least some visionary or entheogenic effects. 50mg sublingual can be a large dose. It is very active sublingual. Oral doses are naturally might higher so dont go off of information on oral dosing when concidering sublingual.

Thx Jamie and Melcat for emphasizing this, I wasn't aware of its delicacy since I don't smoke.

One thing is unclear for me so far: why the manske salting out?

Say one has 100 units (weight) of base precipitated goodies;
You do one manske on it and you end up by 60 units.
Both myself and Gibran2 came to identically results of losing 40%, and to realize that the remaining 60 units are contaminated with salt makes the *loss* even more.

What happened with the 40 units that did not crystalize with manske?
They went down the drain by filtering.
Main question is: where these 40 units no actives?

If they are actives, a change of alkaloid spectrum might be involved? If so, affecting the dosage?? (making this post on topic here)

I've never understood the manske salting out, so far I base precip, decant, redissolve, filter, 2nd base precip, washes, and go. Am I overlooking an important functional feature here by not performing the manske steps?

 

[MelCat]

The reasoning behind the manske is that syrian rue contains more than just harmala alkaloids.

If you take a look at the alkaloid profile you'll see that rue also contains Vasicine and Vasicinone which can cause some unwanted and rather unpleasant effects.

The manske comes into play because those unwanted alkaloids stay in the solution while the harmalas form the salts and crash out of the solution.

Just doing a regular a/b will leave those extras in the final product so while it's pure syrian rue extract, it's not pure harmalas.

I'm not sure how much of the 40% loss is vasicine and vasicinone. According to the alkaloid profile, it's at least around 25% of the total weight.

It's been speculated that the THH doesn't come out in the manske but as far as I know we've never found a source for that claim or been able to verify it one way or another.

One way to cut down on the losses is after the first crystallization and filtration, instead of pouring the solution down the drain, reduce it down some more and let it cool again. That will "push" some of the extra harmalas out of the solution but that could also lead to more salt contamination which would require another cleanup round but that just makes them that much cleaner in the long run so it's not really a bad thing.

Some people base the solution to reclaim whatever didn't get pushed out with the manske but if I was to do that, I'd personally keep those alkaloids separate and labeled as "Rue Extras" or something along those lines.

I haven't tried or experimented with those "extra" alks and I really don't recommend that anyone does. I'm just speculating how I would deal with those alks if I did base them out of the manske'd solution.

I hope this helps!

 

[Jees]

Yes, thank you very much.

So the 40% will be a mix of alkaloids + non-alkaloids with an unknown ratio. I should try a mansked extract to feel if there is a difference because of less non-actives. Maybe someone can already share experience on that?

...I'm not sure how much of the 40% loss is vasicine and vasicinone. According to the alkaloid profile, it's at least around 25% of the total weight...

Is it known if those actually precipitate under base?

Wrapped up: the manskes would turn out be the purest, besides it's possible salt contamination. Would be nice to have that salt cleanup with water annex.

 

[MelCat]

Is it known if those actually precipitate under base?

Not by me, I'm just regurgitating what I've read.

 

[jamie]

"The potency depends on how much salt was used during the manske. The more salt contamination, the weaker the potency."

If you do a proper recrystalization at the end the ammount of salt used should not be a factor at all. A water recrystalization solves this problem. Simoly salting out crystals, collecting and drying is like only doing half of a tek..so yes if you just do that it will have salt contam. You have to do a freeze precipitation from just a small ammount of water on the impure manske crystals.

I wasn't aware of the water re-x tek.

Just to verify, dissolve the harmala hcl in a minimal amount of water and freeze precip? What next?

If you want to outline it in another topic, I'll add it to the Tao and link back to it on the next update.

Dissolve them in the smallest ammount of hot water..then freeze precip(no salt added)..you have to get it so cold that the water nearly freezes bot not entirely..if it does start to freze put it into the fridge and the crystals will come out of the slush. Much of the extra salt should be removed this way as it stayes in solution.

 

[gibran2]

Yes, thank you very much.

So the 40% will be a mix of alkaloids + non-alkaloids with an unknown ratio. I should try a mansked extract to feel if there is a difference because of less non-actives. Maybe someone can already share experience on that?

...I'm not sure how much of the 40% loss is vasicine and vasicinone. According to the alkaloid profile, it's at least around 25% of the total weight...

Is it known if those actually precipitate under base?

Wrapped up: the manskes would turn out be the purest, besides it's possible salt contamination. Would be nice to have that salt cleanup with water annex.

Please take a look at post #5 in this thread. It includes a link to a source describing the beneficial effects of vasicine and vasicinone.

Vasicine and vasicinone must be avoided by pregnant women, but in all other respects they are beneficial alkaloids.

(”MelCat” has repeatedly claimed that vasicine and vasicinone produce “unpleasant effects” yet has not provided a source for this claim.)

Edit: To answer the original question and re-state what others have already said, sublingual doses are generally very small compared to oral doses. I find that as little as 10mg will have minor effects, 20mg is a good balance between the harmala alkaloids and DMT, and at 30mg+, the harmalas tend to overpower the DMT, often requiring a higher than usual dose of DMT to compensate.

 

[MelCat]

(”MelCat” has repeatedly claimed that vasicine and vasicinone produce “unpleasant effects” yet has not provided a source for this claim.)

I don't understand why you'd put my name in quotation marks like that Gibran. It really makes that statement appear condescending. If I'm being overly sensitive I apologize, but it just seems that you've had some kind of issue with me for quite some time. If I've rubbed you the wrong way somehow, I apologize again as it really wasn't my intention.

My "source" for the unpleasant effects is just personal bio-essays. It's a matter of personal bio-chemistry and personal preference. I find that raw rue or crude extract affect me differently than pure harmine/harmaline.

If you're goal is for pure harmine/harmaline then you obviously don't want anything in there but harmine/harmaline.

Different strokes for different folks. I never meant to offend.

 

[MelCat]

Dissolve them in the smallest ammount of hot water..then freeze precip(no salt added)..you have to get it so cold that the water nearly freezes bot not entirely..if it does start to freze put it into the fridge and the crystals will come out of the slush. Much of the extra salt should be removed this way as it stayes in solution.

Thanks for clearing that up, I'll give it a shot here soon.

 

[gibran2]

(”MelCat” has repeatedly claimed that vasicine and vasicinone produce “unpleasant effects” yet has not provided a source for this claim.)

I don't understand why you'd put my name in quotation marks like that Gibran. It really makes that statement appear condescending. If I'm being overly sensitive I apologize, but it just seems that you've had some kind of issue with me for quite some time. If I've rubbed you the wrong way somehow, I apologize again as it really wasn't my intention.

My "source" for the unpleasant effects is just personal bio-essays. It's a matter of personal bio-chemistry and personal preference. I find that raw rue or crude extract affect me differently than pure harmine/harmaline.

If you're goal is for pure harmine/harmaline then you obviously don't want anything in there but harmine/harmaline.

Different strokes for different folks. I never meant to offend.

Please excuse my punctuation. As you can see, I oftentimes use quotation marks liberally, and no “condescension” or “condescending attitude” was intended.

Regarding having “an issue with you for some time” – I’m not sure what would make you think that. I don’t post very often lately, and I can’t recall if I’ve ever addressed you directly in a post before.

Regardless, if you feel there is some issue that needs to be resolved, feel free to PM me.

Finally, I also find rue-extracted alkaloids to have an “unpleasantness” that isn’t present in caapi-extracted alkaloids. I don’t know what the source of that unpleasantness might be, but I haven’t found any sources suggesting it’s vasicine and/or vasicinone.

 

[MelCat]

My apologizes Gibran, I'm not running on very much sleep and probably shouldn't have said anything.

It just seems like this isn't the first time we've discussed this very topic and I've felt like I needed to defend my position when in reality you feel pretty much the same way I do.

When purified to just harmine/harmaline, rue alks don't really give me any unpleasantness so that's what leads me to believe that it's most likely the vasicine/vasicinone.

In the future I'll add a disclaimer that this is just my own personal speculation and include that there are benefits to the extra alks.

And just to clarify, there isn't any issue between us except an imaginary one on my part which I will deal with accordingly. Apologizes once again for the misunderstanding.

 

[behindthelight]

I extract my rue harmalas using Gibrans Tek so my extract still has the Vasicine and vasicinone in it.

I have done around 400-500mg orally a few times and it was really strong. Definitely tripping hard.

I've done sublingually a few times....amounts from 50 to 150mgs and for me it doesn't work as good as orally.

Not to mention it is a lot harder to get the alks to dissolve sublingually than it is to just swallow them.

It takes practice to figure out how to get your sublingual technique down.

 

[Jees]

Thanks jamie
, and other info inhere, like the links, great.