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Reflections on chocolate

tregar

tregar

Rising Star
Condensed the original thread down to 4 pages with references (notes, 2nd half of paper, quite long at 16 pages) for easy reading. Included invaluable alkaloid diagrams, comments & trip reports from downwardsfromzero, Triglav, dragonrider, Hermes, Nogal, Krystle Cole, chemist Peter Webster, u/Gu1l7y5p4rk, Burning Copal & others with 20 photos:

"Potent LSH & penniclavine fresh from morning glory vine & relation to ancient Greece"

 
I'd like to add something of a thought about peppermint oil, LSH, LSA and acetaldehyde. It should seem pretty obvious and it would not be surprising to find that this has been said before:

Rather than thinking that the acetaldehyde in peppermint oil is actually reacting with LSA to form LSH, it makes more sense to consider the situation in terms of chemical equilibrium: by adding a lot of acetaldehyde to the system, the rate of hydrolysis decomposition of LSH to LSA plus acetaldehyde is greatly reduced. Perhaps this then allows the LSH to survive long enough to do its job effectively.

Looking at the covalent bonding of acetaldehyde to proteins (participation of Lysine residues) by authors Tuma, Newman, Donohue & Sorrell, we see that this can happen without or with a reducing agent.

This is very similar to what may happen theoretically with ergine (LSA) and acetaldehyde externally in solution (without a catalyst) or even possibly in vitro in the human liver to form the potent Lysergic acid hydroxyethylamine (LSH).
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I'd have to disagree and say the similarity is drastically limited. The difference here is that the lysine residue contains a free amine group which reacts via its lone pair of electrons to form a bond at the carbonyl carbon of the aldehyde, whereas in LSA the nitrogen atom in question is bonded as an amide - which means, to a significant extent, its lone pair is tied up by the carbonyl group of the lysergyl moiety and thus not particularly inclined to go reacting with some other carbonyl group outside of the LSA molecule.
 
I have also experimented with morning glory seeds a lot.
A couple of times the seeds came very close to LSD, but on other occasions they where nothing like LSD at all.

But there is more. I have combined morning glory seeds with other psychedelics. And on some occasions they dulled the effects of them.
But on a few occasions, they boosted the effects of psychedelics enormously and very few seeds where actually needed to create this effect.

Once a mere 30 seeds where enough to cause an overwhelming OBE on LSD, paired with the most insane visuals and a defragmentation of the mind like i have never experienced ever since.

I am convinced that there is a substance in fresh morning glories, and maybe it is LSH, that modulates receptors that are being activated by psychedelics in such a way that it can boost the effects of other psychedelics. And also that LSA has the opposite effect.

Unfortunately, my morning glories fell victim of a fungus last year.
Converting LSA to LSH sounds very interesting. I have plenty of old seeds left.
 
This is very interesting info! Thank you so much for sharing it.

I'am aware of these possibilities for some time already because I did some reading a few years ago on the dmt-nexus forums about this topic but never in such a systematic way. So thank you tregar for taking the time to put it like that here in the forums.

I did experience MG seeds with CWE about 8 years ago. The extraction was performed by another person and I did not put much notice into it. I do know however that no peppermint was involved. Nontheless the experience was very interesting and worth it. Much sedation at the beginning after that very uniqe visuals appeared, first CEV ann after that OEV as well. The experience is memorable and unique so that the seeds have retained much of the interest in my mind.

I was thinking about performing an extraction of LSA a few times in the past years after the experience. Reading about it on the dmt-nexus forums I read about the peppermint combination for the first time. This post again sparks the interest.

I've sown morning glory seeds this spring for the fist time and they're now small seedlings but growing nicely. With a bit of luck I should have fresh seeds available by the end of summer which will enable me to do some further experiments.

The idea of making 'homegrown' LSD like substance is inded very intriguing!
 
Triglav said:
This is very interesting info! Thank you so much for sharing it.

I'am aware of these possibilities for some time already because I did some reading a few years ago on the dmt-nexus forums about this topic but never in such a systematic way. So thank you tregar for taking the time to put it like that here in the forums.

I did experience MG seeds with CWE about 8 years ago. The extraction was performed by another person and I did not put much notice into it. I do know however that no peppermint was involved. Nontheless the experience was very interesting and worth it. Much sedation at the beginning after that very uniqe visuals appeared, first CEV ann after that OEV as well. The experience is memorable and unique so that the seeds have retained much of the interest in my mind.

I was thinking about performing an extraction of LSA a few times in the past years after the experience. Reading about it on the dmt-nexus forums I read about the peppermint combination for the first time. This post again sparks the interest.

I've sown morning glory seeds this spring for the fist time and they're now small seedlings but growing nicely. With a bit of luck I should have fresh seeds available by the end of summer which will enable me to do some further experiments.

The idea of making 'homegrown' LSD like substance is inded very intriguing!
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It is important to know that vaso and bronchoconstriction are much more serious with LSH than with LSD. High doses can be pretty uncomfortable for this reason.
 
dragonrider Thanks for pointing out the vaso and broncho - constriction with LSH. I was not aware that this is the case.

I any way I don't want to put out the message that it is possible to obtain actual LSD with these procedures. The idea of 'homegrown LSD' is only used as a comparison.
 
If I understand correctly, DL-tartaric acid is a mixture of D and L isomer. Is that correct ? And also with LSH we are after the D-LSH variant, right ? Similar as with LSD where the D-LSD is the active principle.

It seems I can get all the three variants of the tartaric acid -> L, D and DL-tartatic acid. There is a big difference in the price between them, D-tartaric acid being the more expensive of the three.

You (tregar) mention that the DL-tartaric acid worked very well. I get from your writing that there is enough D-tartaric in the mixture to obtain more than enough D-LSH for the desired effects.

Thank you for all the info! And if you're in the mood to explain some more (no pressure) that would be very much appreciated.

Have a great day! :)
 
Yes correct Triglav. TIHKAL (Dr. Shulgin):
Reactivity and degradation

"LSD," writes the chemist Alexander Shulgin, "is an unusually fragile molecule ... As a salt, in water, cold, and free from air and light exposure, it is stable indefinitely."[71]

LSD has two labile protons at the tertiary stereogenic C5 and C8 positions, rendering these centres prone to epimerisation. The C8 proton is more labile due to the electron-withdrawing carboxamide attachment, but removal of the chiral proton at the C5 position (which was once also an alpha proton of the parent molecule tryptophan) is assisted by the inductively withdrawing nitrogen and pi electron delocalisation with the indole ring.[citation needed]

LSD also has enamine-type reactivity because of the electron-donating effects of the indole ring. Because of this, chlorine destroys LSD molecules on contact; even though chlorinated tap water contains only a slight amount of chlorine, the small quantity of compound typical to an LSD solution will likely be eliminated when dissolved in tap water.[71] The double bond between the 8-position and the aromatic ring, being conjugated with the indole ring, is susceptible to nucleophilic attacks by water or alcohol, especially in the presence of light. LSD often converts to "lumi-LSD," which is inactive in human beings.[71]
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Triglav said:
It seems I can get all the three variants of the tartaric acid -> L, D and DL-tartatic acid.
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For the sake of completeness, it seems worth mentioning here that there is another form of tartaric acid, meso-tartaric acid, which is optically inactive. Whereas DL-tartaric acid appears optically inactive by consisting of a mixture of equal amounts of both the D- form and the L- form of tartaric acid which cancel out each other's optical rotations, meso-tartaric acid has this cancelling-out within the molecule itself. One half of the molecule is the mirror image of the other half.

This may be just a long-winded way of saying that meso-tartaric acid most probably would not prove helpful for LSH extraction/stabilisation! I don't think it would be harmful per se, just less useful than the pure D-tartaric.
 
Downwardsfromzero, you chemical expertise is brilliant, thanks so much for your comments.
 
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