Rue potentiaion of cannabis- verified or myth?

[Psybin]

If we're speaking about harmalas increases in the neurotransmitters that are also related to the high achieved through smoking cannabis - I'd argue they might have some potentiation relationship without being a direct agonist of any type.

Being an agonist is irrelevant as we're talking about potentiation, not agonism. Harmalas do not modulate levels of cannabinoids in the brain and thus do NOT potentiate cannabinoids.

yes, but cannabis causes a surge in dopamine levels. It's that euphoric feeling when you feel the cannabis hitting your brain. Harmala's will prevent the breakdown of dopamine, so they elevate dopamine levels as well. So i argue that at least one part of the cannabis experience IS amplified. The dopaminergic dimension of cannabis.

What you describe is not potentiation of cannabis but rather synergy. The dopamine release is actually a result of downstream modulation of GABA receptors, which modulate synaptic dopamine. Harmalas retard/prevent the breakdown of this dopamine, but that is not the same as potentiating THC, which would consist of THC accumulating in the synapse, which is the opposite of what happens.

In any case, harmalas don't even increase DA in the synapse the way you think. Check out this thread if you don't believe me. The paper describes harmalas as causing efflux of dopamine from the synapse, which is opposite of what you've suggested (that harmalas increase synaptic DA to potentiate cannabis).

These data suggest that harmine augments DA efflux via a novel, shell-specific, presynaptic 5-HT2A receptor-dependent mechanism, independent of MAOI activity

Think about: why would researchers be investigating harmalas to treat Parkinson's if it increased synaptic DA? Parkinson's patients have to much synaptic DA floating around, which is why researchers are looking to harmalas as a way to remove excess DA from the synapse.

http://jop.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/10/12/0269881112463125.abstract

An example of actual potentiation would be something like diphenhydramine and morphine, or taking a SRI with a SERT releasing agent.

 

[TreehouseChemist]

So I'm in a troll bait argument online with someone over my stating that I've experienced a altered effect smoking cannabis combined with s. rue. While I've personally encountered this, having waking semi lucid dream like states as a result of the combo, which is altogether different from using either alone.

I would say from my experiences that yes, rue indeed DOES potentate cannabis. It feels more like consuming a fair amount if oral canna. However my argues has resorted to name calling and insisting its impossible.

While I try to resist biting troll bait, I have. Can anyone send me to a link that wil help verify my position? Much thanks!

Yes, it does potentiate marijuana more than just the two effects added together. I have experienced this first hand and had a close friend verify it. It has been a while but I remember it having a very heavy stoning feeling, and the "waking semi-lucid dream state" is a good description of it. I found myself much more clumsy and cloudy headed but still functional. I have no idea what mechanism may cause this, but the combo of harmalas and marijuana certainly seems to have synergy.

Don't mind the person saying there is no way it is possible. Just because there are no studies that confirm it (there aren't many scientific studies about how to make the marijuana experience stronger, for obvious reasons) doesn't mean it isn't a real effect. First hand accounts on forums or chats are often dismissed as nonsense, yet blog entries or websites with no sources are accepted as fact. Don't ask me why

What you describe is not potentiation of cannabis but rather synergy.

po·ten·ti·a·tion (pō-ten'shē-ā'shŭn),
Interaction between two or more drugs or agents resulting in a pharmacologic response greater than the sum of individual responses to each drug or agent.

Potentiation can be used interchangeably with synergy in most cases. And potentiation doesn't necessarily mean there is an accumulation of one drug. It just means the overall effects are more than the sum of the two.

-Treehouse

 

[Psybin]

So I'm in a troll bait argument online with someone over my stating that I've experienced a altered effect smoking cannabis combined with s. rue. While I've personally encountered this, having waking semi lucid dream like states as a result of the combo, which is altogether different from using either alone.

I would say from my experiences that yes, rue indeed DOES potentate cannabis. It feels more like consuming a fair amount if oral canna. However my argues has resorted to name calling and insisting its impossible.

While I try to resist biting troll bait, I have. Can anyone send me to a link that wil help verify my position? Much thanks!

Yes, it does potentiate marijuana more than just the two effects added together. I have experienced this first hand and had a close friend verify it. It has been a while but I remember it having a very heavy stoning feeling, and the "waking semi-lucid dream state" is a good description of it. I found myself much more clumsy and cloudy headed but still functional. I have no idea what mechanism may cause this, but the combo of harmalas and marijuana certainly seems to have synergy.

Don't mind the person saying there is no way it is possible. Just because there are no studies that confirm it (there aren't many scientific studies about how to make the marijuana experience stronger, for obvious reasons) doesn't mean it isn't a real effect. First hand accounts on forums or chats are often dismissed as nonsense, yet blog entries or websites with no sources are accepted as fact. Don't ask me why

What you describe is not potentiation of cannabis but rather synergy.

po·ten·ti·a·tion (pō-ten'shē-ā'shŭn),
Interaction between two or more drugs or agents resulting in a pharmacologic response greater than the sum of individual responses to each drug or agent.

Potentiation can be used interchangeably with synergy in most cases. And potentiation doesn't necessarily mean there is an accumulation of one drug. It just means the overall effects are more than the sum of the two.

-Treehouse

You're missing the part where there is no scientific mechanism for what he proposed, in fact there is an already identified mechanism with the opposite effect (wherein harmalas reduce synaptic dopamine conc. contrary to what dragonrider proposed).

I've also experimented with harmalas and cannabis extensively and didn't experience any potentiation of the effects of either substance. I suppose both of our experiences are equally valid, no? So personal experience is only a useful indicator of what's going on if we can identify trends in them. Anecdotal evidence alone isn't very strong, and no statistical analysis has been done on said anecdotal reports in order to verify that it is in fact evidence for and not against the concept of potentiating cannabis with harmalas.

In the end, it's not really important since we're all going to consume these substances in our own way. It's not really helpful either though to muddy the waters with conjecture that's lacking solid evidence. Wouldn't it be better to debate based on reliable, verifiable data rather than opinion and personal experience which are extremely limited in scope and usefulness?

 

[TreehouseChemist]

You're missing the part where there is no scientific mechanism for what he proposed, in fact there is an already identified mechanism with the opposite effect (wherein harmalas reduce synaptic dopamine conc. contrary to what dragonrider proposed).

I've also experimented with harmalas and cannabis extensively and didn't experience any potentiation of the effects of either substance. I suppose both of our experiences are equally valid, no? So personal experience is only a useful indicator of what's going on if we can identify trends in them. Anecdotal evidence alone isn't very strong, and no statistical analysis has been done on said anecdotal reports in order to verify that it is in fact evidence for and not against the concept of potentiating cannabis with harmalas.

In the end, it's not really important since we're all going to consume these substances in our own way. It's not really helpful either though to muddy the waters with conjecture that's lacking solid evidence. Wouldn't it be better to debate based on reliable, verifiable data rather than opinion and personal experience which are extremely limited in scope and usefulness?

Just because the mechanism isn't known, doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect. You're missing the part where I said that already

Several people said they noticed something, you say you didn't, so your single experience means everyone else was just imagining things?

And of course a thorough scientific investigation would be preferable, but (as I said already) they haven't done any tests on potentiating marijuana with harmalas, so we work with the information available (which is a collection of first-hand accounts).


-Treehouse

 

[dragonrider]

The synaptic dopamine efflux is an effect, independant from the MAOI activity of these harmala alkaloïds. So maybe, the net result is still that levels of synaptic dopamine are elevated.
Maybe the efflux/MAOI ratio would even differ for each individual alkaloïd. That could explain why rue generally has mild sedative effects, while caapi is more of a stimulant.

Anyway, i also experienced such a potentiation from st johnsworth. St johnsworth is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, so it definately elevates synaptic levels of dopamine.
In other words, elevated levels of synaptic dopamine DO seem to increase some of the effects of cannabis.