Salt increasing yields

[ChemisTryptaMan]

Hello fellow nexians,
I'm sorry for failing to respond to much of the questions coming out of my post on adding salt to wet teks to increase yields. I talk in my original post about ionic strength and I think it might be appropriate to actually define this term for you. The ionic strength is the sum of the concentrations of each solute in solution raised to the charge they have. This means that salts like phosphate ions, sulfate ions, calcium ions, etc. have a greater effect on the ionic strength when dissolved to the same concentrations as salts with a single unit of charge like sodium, chloride, and hydroxide atoms. At the pH's that the extractions are run at all of the negative ions i listed(sulphate/phossphate) will be at there most highly charged states and thus have a cubed or squared effect on ionic strength. I want to encourage some people to try perhaps using these ions of greater charge so that less of them are needed for the ionic strength to be sufficiently high.

I want to explain my recent absence from the forum as well. I actually have been dealing with a movement disorder that has now been diagnosed as a condition called myoclonic dystonia. Basically I shake like crazy unless I'm medicated on Klonopin. As I'm sure many of you are aware, this drug has a very negative effect on the way the spice affects me. It has been very difficult for me to reach breakthrough doses no matter how much I smoke, even 80 mg's will not allow me to breakthrough. I am also running very low on spice because the megayield I got by adding salt to my last extraction was taken by a girlfriend who was very wrong for me and I should have been more aware of the evil she was capable of but basically she stole all my spice except a small amount that I had seperated out for easier access from my enormaous stash. Ive attached a picture of my raw yield, before I cleaned it. But this was from just 10 lbs of bark. I will try to spend more time on here again but am still dealing with endless medical appointments and tests and the like but I will always have this community in my heart no matter how long I may stay away for.

 

[cyb]

Good to see you return CTM...
You have no idea how many extractions have been boosted due to your theory...

hope your condition remains under control

So many thanks due...:thumb_up:

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

Cyb, it was just an idea that came to me while teaching extractions to college sophmores. I gave it a try and when I saw it's true potential I had to share it with the nexian community. My hope of making the mimosa as effective as possible for all who use it seems to be slowly catching on. Much love brother.

 

[Ancotar]

Hello CTM!

Please forgive my ignorance and correct me if I am wrong as I am very new to this field, but would I be replacing sodium hydroxide with maybe say phosphoric acid as an acceptable base to start using or am I misunderstanding?

Thank you again for all your contributions and knowledge!

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

no you would still have to use the sodium hydroxide, the best way to introduce the higher valence ions is by substituting phosphoric or sulfuric acid in the acid wash. There are phosphate and sulfate salts as well as salts containing magnesium and calcium which can simply be added in place of the salts but they would have to be added to the solution in molar equivalents to the nacl used in the current method. Hope this helps, any more questions just keep on asking.

 

[Mr.Peabody]

Man, if only my chemistry teacher was as cool as you! Maybe it was you? You'd have to be good at acting like a square.:lol:

That sucks about your spice! But, maybe all of the extra spice yielded from your theory will be a net gain in the overall scheme of things. I know it doesn't help you out at all, but that's the way it goes. It should come back to you!

Where might you suggest a good source for these stronger ions? If I read right, they would be added in addition to the NaOH, like the NaCl has been?

 

[Apoc]

no you would still have to use the sodium hydroxide, the best way to introduce the higher valence ions is by substituting phosphoric or sulfuric acid in the acid wash. There are phosphate and sulfate salts as well as salts containing magnesium and calcium which can simply be added in place of the salts but they would have to be added to the solution in molar equivalents to the nacl used in the current method. Hope this helps, any more questions just keep on asking.

sorry I'm not a chemist, I'm starting to get lost here. So the current method is just adding a bunch of table salt in after basifying? Ionized or non?

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

All salts are ionized when they are in solution, but only to a certain extent. The extent is called the solubility. Only fully soluble salts will completely dissociate into there ions.

Unfortunately salts that contain higher valence ions like those i mentioned are not as easily found as those in like sodium chloride. Thats why I sugggest using the phoshoric acid in the acid wash. Once the base has been added, the phosphate will give up some protons and become more negatively charged.

 

[cyb]

Would you be up for posting a small, simple bullet point tek using your new method (inc preferred solvent)..outlined above? :
say: 50g MHRbark starter tek (also acacia possibilities)

eg.
* phosphoric acid wash
* base with NaOH
* add NaCl

etc.

timing, duration and heat etc. can be experimented with....

If peeps can get the ingredients together... experimentation en mass may ensue...:thumb_up:

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

cyb, I just broke out my old crc handbook to look at the solubilities of various salts and found that most of the ones i was hoping to use are only slighlty soluble in aqueous solutions. Basically calcium and magnesium should be avoided. This leaves us with only one option and that is to use either sulfuric or phosphoric acid in place of vinegar in the acid wash. Once the pH is elevated to the normal levels at which the extraction is performed these acids will be converted into ions with charges of -2(sulfuric), and -3(phosphoric). The plant material already contains a lot of proteins that when heated in either acid or base will break down into their individual amino acids which will each carry a -1 charge. If one wishes to skip the initial acid wash they can still start with phosphoric acid and just basify until it is no longer an acid. this will require more NaOH, but I believe it would be well worth it due to the increase in ionic strength. My point abour breaking apart the proteins is important though. This means that the longer you heat the initial mixture(before addin the NPS) in the basic or acidic solution the better, as more ions will be present in the final reaction mixture. Your tek is perfect already, except for the acid you use in the beginning. I don't have the time to write up a tek but you could put a side-note in there after we confirm the effectiveness. Which I will be doing when uncle sam pays me back my tax money this month. I have also found that the pH raisers for hydroponic set-ups, pools, and aquariums contain a mixture of the exact ions I am talking about, so perhaps this is one outlet to explore. I hope one day our paths cross so we can have a long chat about this chemistry. The funny thing is that by saturating the solution with one salt like sodium chloride, you actually increase the solubility of other ions, so by using multiple ions you are only doing yourself a favor. I hope this info leads to something as great as the last tek you posted with the salt addition.

Thanks again brother,

CTM

 

[Ancotar]

This just sparked something in the back of my mind in regards to acacia confusa.

Since an acid wash is recommended during acid bath, I wonder if substituting vinegar with phosphoric acid would be able to applied to the acacia confusa extractions?
EDIT: Just now saw your post in reply to Cyb explaining the use of sulferic and phosphoric acid and their properties. My computer is slow today.

I have 500g of the root bark right now, I hope to do an experiment in the future and if anyone wants to try this in the meantime, please keep us posted to your findings!

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

Another option that I failed to mention is carbonate, it will have a charge of -2 at extraction pH levels. This could be added along with the other salt you are using. You can even start with baking soda, though each molecule of bicarbonate will use one molecule of lye to gain that extra unit of charge so more lye may be needed. I cant wait to get back in the "lab" and do some experimenting. I feel there is more progress to be made though cyb's tek put everything i was thinking into a perfectly written tek that can almost guarantee a 2% yield. I am indescribably grateful for the effort he has put into making that idea so effective for this whole community, but our work here is never done until we know we are no longer wasting any mimosa or acacia. We want all they have to offer and should not settle for less.

Love to all of you, we are all brothers and sisters on this forum and I feel it is the most special place on the web. We are all doing mankinds most important work(IMO).

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

ancotar, I love that you have taken this experimenting into your own hands and proven that it really does make a difference to add salt. When I first posted the idea it was met with much doubt, mainly due to people attempting it on dryteks, but you have shown the difference and it is quite remarkable. I also want to tell you that simply by asking these questions you are anything but ignorant. If we dont ask questions we become ignorant, but you have definitely been asking good questions and I want you to know how grateful I am to you as well. This salting business is something that the three of us(cyb, you, and I) have come together to bring to the forum. I did not have the ambition or the time to spread the knowledge the way you two have. Eternally grateful to you my friend. I wish there was a way we could all get together and pool resources and work in a shared space so we could really collaborate, but I would like to get a PM from each of you with your relative locations within the world so that I may seek you out at some point.

Until then, NAMASTE

 

[Ancotar]

This is a very agreeable idea indeed. I would love to continue to pool resources in an effort to help keep contributing to the community and would be very open to the idea of maybe meeting up with you two later on down the road! I will of course send relevant information in regards to this to you via PM.

They can call us The Three Musketeers Of Salt!

I feel very privileged to work with you two and hope to get to do more work with you guys as time goes on and am furthermore glad that I am not hindering anything by asking the questions I have! Thanks again!

 

[cyb]

I would like to get a PM from each of you

Done...

'Salty Spice Dawgz' on a mission for the 3% treasure chest...



le saline trois

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

'Salty Spice Dawgz'

Love that!

 

[Mel Angel]

Hey ChemisT...I would track down your girlfriend and try to get your stash back. Hopefully she still has it. I wish I knew where she was because I'm low on spice as well.

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

Unfortunately she is a hard core drug addict. When I was with her we were both in methadone maintenance programs, and she was doing well, but She inherited a lot of money shortly after we broke up and I heard she not doing well. I know that she has sold it, because when we were together she would always ask me to sell some to her friends and was not at all understanding as to why I would always refuse. I think she used that money to feed her habits until she was given her inheritance money. It is gone, and I am deeply saddened and lost in respect to my spice situation right now. I only have about a dose or two left and then I'm out. She really hit me where it hurt the most. I would rather she had hurt me physically(she was very violent at times), emotionally, or financially. She chose to steal my access to those spiritual states that I gain a priceless amount of perspective and guidance from. Everything happens for a reason, and I believe the loss has brought me back here to this forum, which may be part of the reason she was meant to take it. I have faith that everything will be better soon. But for now I have to use meditation as a my best way to access higher levels of being. I'm a better person after the many lessons I learned from being with her. I do not hate her or wish her any harm, quite the opposite, I wish for her to get well and become a more centered person. I don't believe holding negative feelings towards those who have harmed you accomplishes anything but more pain.

Thanks for caring Mel,

CTM

 

[Legit]

We need to get a bunch of people doing extractions with different variables, so that we can have a clearer picture of what the "best" way of extraction is. I'm particularly interested in your tek, CTM. When/if you make it.

 

[Mel Angel]

We actually have a lot in common CTM, I'm a former opioid addict myself and am very passionate about chemistry. I just finished Suboxone maintenance three months ago. Im also finishing a BS In biochemistry. I have a few semesters left. DMT actually may have saved me. It's hard to admit that, but just 8 months ago, after five years of buprenorphine , my testosterone levels were 180 ng/dL, that's when I decided enough is enough. I methodically tapered off, started juicing fresh produce and eating super foods like bee pollen, manuka honey, and spirulina, and now I'm at 800 ng/dL. I stopped playing god with pharmaceuticals and just let my body heal it self with nutrition. I recommend nutrition for your illness. It seems to work for every disease. Not saying pharmaceuticals don't have purpose, it's just not the entire picture. For instance, low dose naltrexone LDN, works wonders for post acute withdrawal PAWS coupled with nutrition. It creates a β-endorphin rebound effect. LDN works for many neurological disorders, PAWS is completely experimental, off-label...look into it for other conditions. Sorry about your spice bro. I get it.
This was my last mhrb yield btw, I have like .4g left.
Mel