Hello; in the midst of Cyb's Salt Tek, using Mimosa Hostilis and sticking to the instructions tight as possible, but having an issue at Step Six (adding naphtha): After the first couple of shakes the naphtha separated from the basified mix quickly and fully, producing a clear top layer - but the final three shakes the naphtha has visibly separated yet retained a good deal of the brown colour from the mix below (like peaty water) - waiting on the fifth separation now for a good hour and it's still fairly brown, whilst the tek suggests the entire process (all five shakes / separations) should take around 45 minutes. The bottle is still sitting in the warm bath, the lid is on, but not completely sealed. Any ideas...? Thanks!
-
Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).
Salt Tek problem...
- Thread starter Fennel
- Start date
Okay, so perhaps I have found the problem: I am using Ronsonol for my naphtha (one of the three brands suggested in the tek), but some research has revealed that since 2010 Ronsonol no longer contains naphtha, or at least contains a somewhat different iteration of it (there are conflicting accounts - perhaps it changes country to country? I'm getting no clues from the tin I have here); in any case, has anyone else here in the UK bought and used Ronsonol to this end in the past couple of years with success?
DreaMTripper
Rising Star
- Merits
- 42
Hi. Find the latest MSDS and/or search the nexus. Emulsions can be dealt with quickly with sprinkles of salt by the way.
Heres a link...
ronsonol new MSDS - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
Heres a link...
ronsonol new MSDS - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
shanedudddy2
Rising Star
- Merits
- 42
Additional sodium hydroxide helps to separate the layers, and reduce the emulsion ime.
HumbleTraveler
Rising Star
- Merits
- 42
I dont think he's talking about an emulsion so much as he literally means the top layer is murky. right ollie?
I too found that out about ronsonol fluid, when you look at the bottle contents it no longer says naphtha it sarys something like flammable distillate or some junk.
Do you have access to vm&p naphtha at a hardware store? Thats what SWIM uses to do cybs salt tek and its worked flawlessly.
I too found that out about ronsonol fluid, when you look at the bottle contents it no longer says naphtha it sarys something like flammable distillate or some junk.
Do you have access to vm&p naphtha at a hardware store? Thats what SWIM uses to do cybs salt tek and its worked flawlessly.
HumbleTraveler is correct - the layer of naphtha (or whatever apparently effective substitute I've ended up with) is murky - given that the Ronsonol is still supposed to work could anyone offer any advice on what might have gone wrong? shanedudddy2 - does your tip of adding extra sodium hydroxide still apply? Also, ten hours later, is the mix salvageable, or should I be starting over? Thanks!
- Merits
- 42
@Ollie
The last time I heard of this happening was when too much heat (almost boiling) and too much lye was used.
It appears to be micro particles, of heavily based bark powder, somehow being suspended in the solvent. (Most likely due to overheating)
Perhaps carry on with far less heating of the mix...or even just at room temp.
The mix is totally salvageable...the aqueous mix of bark/lye/water will last almost indefinitely.
I would pour the murky naphtha back into the mix jar, give it a swirl and wait for separation.
If it clears, then pull it out again.
If it doesn't clear...pull it out and set it aside for a day to see if the particles drop to the bottom and then separate.
You can then carry on and reintroduce some fresh clean naphtha to the mix.
Hope that helps
edit: I don't know what Ronsonol are doing these days with their ingredients but if you can find yourself some pure naphtha (Panel Wipe is a good one) or Heptane (*bay), you can eliminate that possibility.
The last time I heard of this happening was when too much heat (almost boiling) and too much lye was used.
It appears to be micro particles, of heavily based bark powder, somehow being suspended in the solvent. (Most likely due to overheating)
Perhaps carry on with far less heating of the mix...or even just at room temp.
The mix is totally salvageable...the aqueous mix of bark/lye/water will last almost indefinitely.
I would pour the murky naphtha back into the mix jar, give it a swirl and wait for separation.
If it clears, then pull it out again.
If it doesn't clear...pull it out and set it aside for a day to see if the particles drop to the bottom and then separate.
You can then carry on and reintroduce some fresh clean naphtha to the mix.
Hope that helps
edit: I don't know what Ronsonol are doing these days with their ingredients but if you can find yourself some pure naphtha (Panel Wipe is a good one) or Heptane (*bay), you can eliminate that possibility.
DreaMTripper
Rising Star
- Merits
- 42
You could salt out any alks from the ronsonol with vinegar and bring the solution down to pH4-5. Consider the ronsonol pull as a defat and decant it off.
Then rebasify and pull with a suitable solvent.
Then rebasify and pull with a suitable solvent.
Cyb: Yes, that would make sense - I've been pretty much cooking it from the start, aha. Okay, I'll try your suggestion - thanks very much - glad it doesn't have to go to waste!
EDIT: DreaMTripper, I'm not sure I've the confidence to try that without a better understanding of the steps, volumes, etc... Perhaps you could give me a little more insight?
EDIT: DreaMTripper, I'm not sure I've the confidence to try that without a better understanding of the steps, volumes, etc... Perhaps you could give me a little more insight?
- Merits
- 42
The heat bath serves only to warm the mix, not 'cook' it as you say...Ollie said:
I generally boil some water in a pan...Turn OFF the flame...place the bottle in the water and then wander off...kill some time and return when the bath has cooled...Then repeat.
Excessive constant heat is not what you're after...
DreaMTripper's suggestion is a good one...but as you say, get the basics down first.
Back salting can wait till you understand what it entails (btw..it's easy...DreaMTripper may explain)
Yeah, been doing much the same but perhaps not waiting so long between reheats. Also, only other point of ambiguity for me is the lid - when should it be tight on the bottle (aside from when mixing, of course), and does this make a difference aside from better keeping in the heat? I left it loose most of the time for fear of pressure build-up...
So, I just pulled the murky naphtha layer from the top and decanted it into a jar (lidded). It's very milky - lots of 'product', right? I mean, it's had a lot of time (a lot more than the tek would usually prescribe) to get ahold of it. If it doesn't separate from the plant matter I guess that would be the time to try the process DreaMTripper described? Or would it possibly be usable even with the impurities given they're natural and all... (speaking from the completely naive stance of someone who doesn't really know the chemistry of this.)
So, I just pulled the murky naphtha layer from the top and decanted it into a jar (lidded). It's very milky - lots of 'product', right? I mean, it's had a lot of time (a lot more than the tek would usually prescribe) to get ahold of it. If it doesn't separate from the plant matter I guess that would be the time to try the process DreaMTripper described? Or would it possibly be usable even with the impurities given they're natural and all... (speaking from the completely naive stance of someone who doesn't really know the chemistry of this.)
realitycheck123
Time Does Not Matter Anymore.
- Merits
- 42
I have used ronsonol lighter fluid in normans tek, with good results, I am in the UK.
The ingredients on my tin does say naphtha.
I hope this helps.
Also used Bull brand with good results.
Happy Travel RC123
The ingredients on my tin does say naphtha.
I hope this helps.
Also used Bull brand with good results.
Happy Travel RC123
- Merits
- 42
Lid should be on for safety (stops spillages)...just release pressure every time you pass it and when it gets hot...more the merrier. (you will hear the little ffft sound)Ollie said:
If that pull doesn't settle...then Back Salt it...
Here's how:
Put the pulled naphtha in a jar (with lid of course)
Add some vinegar (not much) to some water.
Add to naphtha
Shake it up...settle...shake some more.
(this will transfer the spice into the acidic solution)
Remove the naphtha layer (it should be empty of spice now)
Add some lye (not too much) to some cold water so it dissolves.
Add that to the acidic solution.
Shake it up
(now the solution should be Basic (alkaline) and the spice will turn to freebase.)
Add fresh naphtha...shake...settle...shake x4
Pull the naphtha
Freeze.
There ya go.
DreaMTripper
Rising Star
- Merits
- 42
Edit: cyb youre too quick for me!
Will leave explanation here for the records..
Ronsonol seems ok to use as verified by cyb previously so a simple back track is needed. I suspect a good 60% of the yeild will be in it due to the heat used.
Firstly decant the naptha into a seperate 1litre jar and cool it in the fridge until its cold so the solubility of the alks is reduced to aid the next step.
Make up a solution of water and vinegar, 2 caps of 4% distilled white vinegar in 500-600ml should do to get it to around pH5.
Pour this quickly but carefuly into the NP jar, put the lid on shake it vigorously many times. Leave to settle and do it again in 5 minutes.
Repeat over the course of an hour.
Decant naptha, the alks should now be in the water-vinegar solution.
Save that naptha somewhere safe incase you need to repeat again.
Next is rebasifying by adding lye again, I think 70-80g would suffice in 600ml to freebase the alks.
Let it settle and cool to room temp or slightly warm.
Pull with 150ml of naptha and evap and/ or freeze precip.
By now the original jar should be cool and you can carry on following cybs salt tek to extract the rest.
I dont know what weights you are extracting from and volumes you used so assumed 50-100g of dry bark to base above the volumes on.. Some could be excessive I tend to over do amounts to be sure.
edit: You could also finish the process as is and clean the product at the end by recrystalizing or a salty sodium carb wash.
Will leave explanation here for the records..
Ronsonol seems ok to use as verified by cyb previously so a simple back track is needed. I suspect a good 60% of the yeild will be in it due to the heat used.
Firstly decant the naptha into a seperate 1litre jar and cool it in the fridge until its cold so the solubility of the alks is reduced to aid the next step.
Make up a solution of water and vinegar, 2 caps of 4% distilled white vinegar in 500-600ml should do to get it to around pH5.
Pour this quickly but carefuly into the NP jar, put the lid on shake it vigorously many times. Leave to settle and do it again in 5 minutes.
Repeat over the course of an hour.
Decant naptha, the alks should now be in the water-vinegar solution.
Save that naptha somewhere safe incase you need to repeat again.
Next is rebasifying by adding lye again, I think 70-80g would suffice in 600ml to freebase the alks.
Let it settle and cool to room temp or slightly warm.
Pull with 150ml of naptha and evap and/ or freeze precip.
By now the original jar should be cool and you can carry on following cybs salt tek to extract the rest.
I dont know what weights you are extracting from and volumes you used so assumed 50-100g of dry bark to base above the volumes on.. Some could be excessive I tend to over do amounts to be sure.
edit: You could also finish the process as is and clean the product at the end by recrystalizing or a salty sodium carb wash.
HumbleTraveler
Rising Star
- Merits
- 42
Just a side note too fwiw, once youre finished with your freeze precip of your FIRST 50ml pull, have a spare dish ready to decant the naphtha into, then saran wrap the top and put that back in the freezer and give it about 3-4 days.
SWIM did this and actually forgot he put this dish back in the freeer. When he checkted the dish in the freezer not expecting to see anything but some small floaties, he had the BIGGEST most perfect xtals he'd ever had. Literally about 8 or 9 big, round xtal orbs just sitting in the dish.
SWIM puts his 1st 50ml pull in a dish by itself, then pull 2/3 together in another and pull 4/5 together in their own dish. He attempted this with 2/3 as well, but it wasnt anything crazy like dish 1.
SWIM did this and actually forgot he put this dish back in the freeer. When he checkted the dish in the freezer not expecting to see anything but some small floaties, he had the BIGGEST most perfect xtals he'd ever had. Literally about 8 or 9 big, round xtal orbs just sitting in the dish.
SWIM puts his 1st 50ml pull in a dish by itself, then pull 2/3 together in another and pull 4/5 together in their own dish. He attempted this with 2/3 as well, but it wasnt anything crazy like dish 1.
So I rescued a good chunk of it - ended up with just under 400mg - think a lot fell through the cracks with my inexpert back-and-forthing. Presently 'Re-X'ing the goods to clean them up a bit! Perfectly happy with this for my first attempt; thanks for all the help and advice guys...
Now having another go with my remaining 50 grams of root bark - hopefully I will do a little better this time!
Now having another go with my remaining 50 grams of root bark - hopefully I will do a little better this time!
DreaMTripper
Rising Star
- Merits
- 42
Well done , thats why you should always do small extractions to start with so you can learn the skills. And now you know how to defat and back-salt
Pipetting is a skill in itself! Always have a glass of hot water to clean the pipette, if you pick up basemix squirt it back in main jar clean the pipette and go again!
There maybe more in there still let the mix settle some more and pull again with fresh.
Pipetting is a skill in itself! Always have a glass of hot water to clean the pipette, if you pick up basemix squirt it back in main jar clean the pipette and go again!
There maybe more in there still let the mix settle some more and pull again with fresh.
