science / sprituality , Idealistic gumph??

[hug46]

I had break from psychedelics for about 15 years (i did acid,mushrooms and dabbled with DMT) and am integrating the experiences i have had on DMT freebase recently. I made a point of not reading too much about what to expect in order not to colour my experiences. I have to say, nothing i could have read would have prepared me.

To begin with i made a connection with what i saw in my mind with the quantum physics world, but now i am not so sure. I have read and watched various things on physicists theorising on the existence of the soul through microtubules (don"t really understand the mechanics of that but i want to believe, ha) or the possibility of a computer code in superstring theory equations, or the neurosurgeon who came back with strange tales of where he had been after his brain shut down while ill in hospital, amongst other weird and wonderful things.


But i wonder if i am just making this connection between two things that i find interesting but don"t really understand - DMT and physics theory, due to my psyched out state of mind which likes to make idealistic connections from being open to suggestion.
At the moment i am thinking my DMT experiences are a deep journey into my mind and how i relate to the world, as it seems my mindset has so much to do with what i experience, but i havent thrown the hyperdimensional travels out with the bathwater just yet. I have a long way to go.

What do people think? Are science and spirituality coming together to herald a new era, or is it idealistic gumph or a bit of both?

 

[Youniverse]

i feel like the scientific discoveries conected to spirituality are no mistake, we depend on the science community to find new things to help us through out life. science is opening up new doors in our minds that bring in a brand new thought process. maybe these doors will lead to a better life for everyone.

 

[Pup Tentacle]

I get where you're coming from. I think we all try to find ways to marry the ideals in our minds... science... spirituality...etc. For me, the dream is to see science and spirituality as the same. To understand the universe and my place within it.

Since, IMHO, all is one (yes I know that is very broad and vague) we can't HELP but search for unifying information and understanding.

I don't place any belief in my psychedelic experiences (just like I try to do with the waking world I perceive.) Might they be a window into something divine? Possibly. Might they be simply my own weirdness swirling around in my noggin? Possibly. There's certainly science to explain some of what we experience. However, with all this in mind, I still don't KNOW if any of this is true or false. I can prove neither. So I go about learning what I can about science, spirituality, and psychedelics in hopes that I will begin to understand their relationship(s). I guess what I'm saying is I'll explore all of them until I receive info that shows me one or more is a dead end or wrong way.

I used to be very science-minded. Now, I think I qualify as more spiritual-minded but not if it includes ignoring facts and science.

I kind of feel like psychedelics may be a spiritual trampoline sometimes. One can jump high enough to see some very deep stuff with them but one can't maintain that altitude like one could if one could fly. I think/hope I will eventually learn to fly and not need to jump up and down for mere glimpses.

Peace & Blessings,

PT

 

[spinCycle]

I kind of feel like psychedelics may be a spiritual trampoline sometimes. One can jump high enough to see some very deep stuff with them but one can't maintain that altitude like one could if one could fly.

That is an excellent analogy, and if true then DMT would seem to be the spinning double backflip of psychedelics.

 

[hug46]

I kind of feel like psychedelics may be a spiritual trampoline sometimes. One can jump high enough to see some very deep stuff with them but one can't maintain that altitude like one could if one could fly.

That is an excellent analogy, and if true then DMT would seem to be the spinning double backflip of psychedelics.

I agree! You have said how i feel, very eloquent!
I have never been what i would call a spiritual person but in the last few years i have been questioning my place in the universe or if indeed i have a place. And psychedelics seem to have resurfaced and both helped and confused (in a nice way) me in my thoughts on these matters.
Thankyou all for replying, it may sound like a dumb question but do you think contemplating your role in the scheme of things is spirituality?

 

[spinCycle]

do you think contemplating your role in the scheme of things is spirituality?

Certainly more so than letting someone else tell you your place in the scheme of things.

Others may have different definitions, but to me spirituality is about the relation of your inner world to your outer world. Others can act as guides, but who else but yourself can know that best?

 

[Pup Tentacle]

...but do you think contemplating your role in the scheme of things is spirituality?

Absolutely. This is almost dead on as far as how I'd define it in as few words as possible, although I might substitute the words "seeking to discover" for "contemplating" ... that's just a matter of semantics.

There are/have been spiritual teachers out there who do not fly their dogma flags in the face of science. Those are the ones whose teachings I find I connect with the most.

 

[cubeananda]

The secret to flight is a community of people who live together and are making efforts to be Conscious and Aware.


Spending time in a such a scenario, one learns to breath "light" energy.

Usually people get small glimpses of "light" energy for small moments of their life, but have no idea what It was, forget about it, or simply never find it again.

Within a community of people who are making aims to be conscious (not express negativity, be understanding of eachother)

The ancient Indian Principles are:

Listening- Learning to listen to the "synchronicities" or "signs". Listening, with no Bias, with no pesonal convictions one way or the other.

Learning to be open to what higher forces want. Learning to genuinely stand above all the doubts that the Logical Brain tends to cause.

Learning to use Logic, but not be used by logic. Accepting science, but not letting science's skepticism destroy your Childlike beauty.

Contemplation- Contemplation is Learning from what you have listened to.

If you to learn to communicate with higher life forms (which is already a miraculous feat of Human Intelligence)

The next step is to Learn from higher life forms.

Action and assimilation into one's life.

Eventually Verifications of higher life forms become so strong that one must now walk the tight rope.

Continue to listen to your intuition, but attempt to see through the various supposedly "Logical" explanations for phenomenon such as synchroncities.

One eventually accepts that there is no logical way to understand these things as of yet, the root of all such explanations are completely hollow and based on the latest theory.

These theories do amount to something useful, but are useful only to the intuition.

(within the realm of "spirituality")

And my personal intuition says that the latest theory is just the visible part of a large mountain of theoretical poop.

Science is awesome within the practical realm 8)

The science of spirituality is simply:

Listening, contemplation, assimilation.

Here is the Several-thousands year old Sutra

Thus, through statements like Tattvamasi,
That art thou, to pursue meanings such as oneness of jiva, the embodied soul,
and Brahman, the absolute reality, is shravana
Listening. And to reasonably pursue the meaning of whatever has been listened to is manan, contemplation.

To attempt to understand the embodied soul and to understand God.

To realize that thou (the embodied soul) art that (God)

Listening.

Contemplation.

Establishing your mind in the indubitable meaning attained through this listening and contemplations, attunement with it is nididhyasan, assimilation.

Assimilation, in my personal and unique experience, I have listened to Angels. (This word simply works to describe it, Entities, Higher forces, God, Love all work just as well)

Angels have forced me to contemplate on my own day-to-day actions. To experience whether what I do is helpful or destructive.

Angels have left me with no reason to question if there is a soul, and with no reason to figure out if there is a scientific way to understand the soul.

Assimilation of the statement, Thou art That, leaves one completely satisfied, once it is assimilated.

No need for a soul, if the embodied soul is just a drop of water in an ocean of Brahma.

If there is a soul, then there are Angels! and if there is a soul, and I reasonably pursue the meaning of that which has been listened too... an endless and pointless debate where either way is just awesome.

Dropping the meditator and the meditation respectively, when the meditated-upon, the goal, remains as the only objective and the mind becomes still like the flame of a lamp in a windless place -
this is called samadhi, enlightenment

When one

simply

looks.

Look.

Enlightenment.

Look.

And then may be you will find a good community.

I can offer one of many communities which exist. But I will restrain myself, because I feel by posting a link I immediately loose the credibility of being a fellow friend who wants to help people who are in the state of "Mumuksha" The longing for truth.

 

[cubeananda]

i feel like the scientific discoveries conected to spirituality are no mistake, we depend on the science community to find new things to help us through out life. science is opening up new doors in our minds that bring in a brand new thought process. maybe these doors will lead to a better life for everyone.

Science allows us to make more advanced analogies and deepen our understanding of something that ultimately cannot be grasped by Science itself.

It is nessecary, both for the improvement in the quality of life, and for the deepening of Analogies and Understanding

(such as the Idea of a Hypernet between dimensions)

Science allows us to have an internet and a youtube that allows us to formulate the theory that there is an interdimensional "Youtube" within an interdimensional "Internet."


Ancient Indians did predict these things, but human beings as a whole clearly needed to improve their quality of life.

Which is why we didn't stagnate at the level which the ancient Indians lived.

Thus our understanding only deepens and our quality of life only improves.

The only thing that is really nessecary for anyone within the state of "mumuksha"

The state of the longing for truth.

The only thing required to be liberated of this longing for the truth, from this state of mumuksha, is the acceptance that enlightenment is possible, and within the context of a school or a group it is probable

And finally the acceptance that it is a scientific matter in it's own right, but a science that transcends logic.

Samadhi is so basic to human nature, that it is no different from being a child, only there is more functionality and less selfishness.

 

[cubeananda]

That thing that guides us all

Can be said to be Love.


When the word love is used, it is much less of a cause for debate and argument.


Some want to understand it intellectually,

To understand Truth intellectually is bound to lead one on the longest possible route towards the destination.

But still some, most, do need to understand it intellectually.

And in order to do so, one needs to see how the most intelligent conclusion one can come to is that one does not, can not, will not ever know anything.

And one will always find an explanation that seems to suit better within a slightly different context or from the perspective of a slightly different inquiry into the same spiritual truth.

Philosophies will lead one to accept that there is not even a spiritual truth.

And Science will lead one to believe there is objective knowledge which one can know.

And spirituality will simply be that feeling of a fresh breeze, light, love

A melting heart, and love for everyone around, a desire to always understand everyone you meet.

Juicy love.

Personally i needed to be intellectual about my search, and so the term "Angels" just works for me.

But I would understand if one needed some other type of explanation.

Love and Angels just works for me.

 

[hixidom]

The mind runs on science: You take what evidence you have and develop a hypothetical model of reality, and new information acts as evidence for or against that model. It is essentially the scientific method by which we come to all conclusions, be they of a materialistic or spiritual nature.

On the other hand, "science" is generally used to refer to the body of research on material systems. In that sense, my impression of works that have attempted to connect spirituality and "science" is that they always either misinterpret or misuse the "science" for the sake of proving whatever spiritual conclusion they are after.

 

[cubeananda]

Scientific method of the western scientific enlightenment = Listening, Contemplation, Assimilation.

Shravana, Manan, nididhyasan = Scientific method of eastern Spiritual Enlightenment

 

[d-T-r]

I kind of feel like psychedelics may be a spiritual trampoline sometimes. One can jump high enough to see some very deep stuff with them but one can't maintain that altitude like one could if one could fly.

That is an excellent analogy, and if true then DMT would seem to be the spinning double backflip of psychedelics.

My third eye / center of forehead twitched just after i read the trampoline part :lol:


Also cubeananda,

When the word love is used, it is much less of a cause for debate and argument.

I Agree with that a lot. I think much can be tied together when we look at the very conciousness that is doing all investigation. Be it Scientific, spiritual,philosophic etc

Even the most Empirical scientist still feels emotions and i sense that most have a hard time dismissing these emotions as simply just neurological byproducts of the brain with no inherent value. There is of course the 'biological basis of love' but i think that people can fall into their own mental traps and limitations when deconstructing emotions to that level.

The awareness behind all three is the same despite it being channelled for different purposes.

Those who are scientific minded, do not operate outside of the same conciousness as those who pursuit things spiritually or intellectually.

Love and Desire is an interesting concept which i think ties a lot together.

The pursuit for Scientific knowledge is essentially rooted within our inner Desire (emotion)

The pursuit for some kind of psycho-spiritual Union /Yoga/ Enlightenment is also based in desire.

We each desire to experience and understand more of what "is" and it's this root desire to experience and learn that leads us back to the path of unified conciousness, or the unified field, depending on which route we find ourselves on.

It appears with the progression of Science, we are now alternating between the two (science and spirituality, old + new ) until there is nothing left to alternate between.

1 path/ "Not Two"

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

But i wonder if i am just making this connection between two things that i find interesting but don"t really understand - DMT and physics theory, due to my psyched out state of mind which likes to make idealistic connections from being open to suggestion.

You hit the nail on the head right there.
I find that this is very common with psychedelics.

We see shapes in clouds and say they are things they are not, because to our limited perspective that is how it is. We are a very naive species that will believe just about anything at any time.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

do you think contemplating your role in the scheme of things is spirituality?

Not for me.

Working with spirits or spirit energy for me is spirituality.

Contemplating the role of a person is philosophy.

As for roles in things, I am lucky enough to not have one.

I have never been what i would call a spiritual person but in the last few years i have been questioning my place in the universe or if indeed i have a place. And psychedelics seem to have resurfaced and both helped and confused (in a nice way) me in my thoughts on these matters.

I really appreciate this and like your posts a great deal.
I'd love to have a conversation with you.
You seem to ask all the right questions.

 

[cyb]

Are science and spirituality coming together to herald a new era, or is it idealistic gumph or a bit of both?

Hug

I, like you, have delved into the wonderful world of physics and science. In fact it has been a life long study. I fall short of fluency but I am versed enough for my needs.
However as middle age kicks my ass and 'the end' looms on the horizon and draws near daily, I find that the world of science and all it's greatness does 'one' thing and 'one' thing very well....
It fails to deliver...

Oh amazing things have been gleaned and advances made...but its true purpose...'What is this 'thing' that we are all experiencing?'...eludes the best minds in that community up to now.
Let's face it they are trying really hard to figure it all out but alas, nothing yet !

Wonderful theories abound and sound like the perfect answer...but they are still just 'theory'...
After the latest and best of those theories is writ and studied...the end game is 'We do not really know conclusively'...

The other side of the coin...The realm of 'Spirituality' has gripped me since this revelation...
I still keep a foot planted in both camps and keep up with the latest developments...
but the 'Romance' of the 'Other'...the 'Joy' of the 'New' and the 'Might Be's'...the possibilities and the probabilities of an infinite 'Source' wishing to know 'itself' through the manipulation of these energy packets and interference patterns that we call bodies...

This fills me with a Lift, a Soaring, a Shiver that the wonderful world of science fails to give...

It appears on the surface that the two camps are talking of the same things...but with different words and language.
The narrow minds of the camp dwellers jostle and parry and refuse to agree and join forces...

I doubt that we will ever know the true answer whilst residing within this plane...maybe upon death the knowing will finally be resolved...
Until then...Gumpf or not...

Awe is my Mentor...

cyb

 

[hug46]

I have never been what i would call a spiritual person but in the last few years i have been questioning my place in the universe or if indeed i have a place. And psychedelics seem to have resurfaced and both helped and confused (in a nice way) me in my thoughts on these matters.

I really appreciate this and like your posts a great deal.
I'd love to have a conversation with you.
You seem to ask all the right questions.

Albert that was a kind comment. I thought i might have been a bit ostracized after my vagina monologues. I would be happy to dicuss, but to be honest you might not get much sense out of me because i am completely baffled as to whats really going on! If i am not asking the right questions at my age, i need to take myself outside, and shoot myself.

As for wondering what your place in the world is, if you see the planet as a mother, perhaps the only real goddess (in that she actually exists) and wondering about your relationship with her . Is this not spiritual? Perhaps philosophical/spiritual..? Is spirituality just a personal thing depending how your mind works?

And cyb, the 2 camps talking the same thing , and DTR mentioned the progression of science also, this is the way i"m seeing it. I think it is very exciting. But there is still the skeptic in me that tells me that i maybe having a midlife crisis ( a very pleasant one) and perhaps caught some sort of new fangled religionitis. After all, after coming back from a DMT journey , i am pretty damn convinced i have been somewhere not of my body, and all psychedelics seem to make me see deep meaning in everything.

I think these thoughts need to be monitored and on some occasions filed away in the irrational b_____ks section i keep just above my temporal lobe.

I"m with you 100% with the awe situation. No matter how much s__t hits the fan, wev"e always got awe! :thumb_up:

 

[Jin]

to me science is the one very true study of GOD , nature , all energy or whatever other peoples interpretations and understandings are .....i believe science is uncovering more of this over time

law of gravity , or the theory of relativity can be discovered by a human yet no doubt is still written by GOD

i believe the more science we can use to understand spirituality the better grasp we can have , we need a more holistic worldview

many want to know what proof do we have for a higher power to exist ?

my definition is simple we are proof , earth is proof , life is proof , its all proof that there is something bigger far more intelligent and conscious that is the source of all this

its foolish to think light can exist without a source , light needs a source , everything has a source , the universe has a source , everything comes from something , light comes from the sun , plants come from seeds and earth , similarly all of it comes from someplace beyond , beyond all that and a little more

 

[cyb]

I maybe having a midlife crisis (a very pleasant one)

I'm right there with you friend...

Take note you younger ones, have fun with your youth but remember...

'The best is yet to come...'

Goddamn this Mystery is Stunning...

 

[Amygdala]

Goddamn this Mystery is Stunning...

It sure is.

The practice of science is one of many methods of approaching the mystery, however imho, the problem lies in the mistaken belief that we are close to solving it. Any scientist acutely aware of their own vast limitations would be the first to acknowledge that the immense and frustrating beauty of it all does not fit neatly into any microscope.


I prefer to think of our understanding of the world as models (idea borrowed from those smarter than I), and while our models get more and more complex, they are no substitution for the real thing, which is by definition completely unknowable. So I just ponder it, and most importantly, enjoy the ride.