Shamans don't know everything

[jamie]

"There are many people (otherwise sane, rational individuals) who are convinced that their highly-specific and tailored diet is the cure to all the evils in the world. Many times I have been informed that depression, anxiety, high blood pressure, low blood pressure, autism, schizophrenia and any number of other things could all be solved by going gluten-free/vegan/paleolithic-whatever. "

People who have never been sick with a real diagnosed disease that got tremendous help with diets should probably just shut up when it comes to this. Do you have any fucking clue what it feels like to eat gluten when you have a chronic inflammatory disease?

I don't really have much else to say to people who criticize people who claim to have gotten well only because of going gluten free etc..other than you don't know shit.

 

[adam]

^^ as someone with hashimotos thyroiditis (an autoimmune disease), the ONLY thing that has worked for me in alleviating my symptoms of chronic fatigue, and fibromyalgia, with a host of other symptoms was going gluten free. I was suicidally depressed, this is pretty common for people with this condition, if you read anything about it you can see that the mainstream medical community doesn't know shit about how to treat it. 10/10 times they make it worse. Just read about it and see, I am not making this up.

The medication they prescribe actually makes it worse eventually leading most people to get surgery and their thyroids removed which usually leads to some serious illness down the road, not to mention a serious decrease in quality of life. In so many cases western medicine is like the hydra treating the symptom not the person. Cut of the head and three more spring up.

I thank God that my cousin moved back to my hometown and that he is naturopath and osteopath. He simply had me change my diet, take a few natural supplements, and exercise, and within a few months I was off all medication and feeling great. Simple.

Thankfully naturopathic medicine is slowly being integrated into the mainstream medical community, and more and more people are realizing its efficacy. The first principle of naturopathic medicine is do no harm, this is something M.D.'s need to realize is very important because from my own experience this is something totally ignored. I have been through hell when it comes to modern medicine.

As someone studying to become a naturopath I believe the western paradigm is not totally bereft of benefits but rather it suffers from lack of moderation and consideration in prescribing treatments. In many cases it is useful, but also it creates a lot of the problems that it solves, it perpetuates illness for this is what sustains it. Naturopathic medicine on the other hand doesn't merely seek to alleviate illness, but to elevate wellness and unlock/unblock personal energetic potentials innate in every individual.

To make myself clear I don't really blame the system as much as I do the individual, whether shaman, M.D, naturopath, ayurvedic healer, whatever healing system; healers need to be honest with themselves and there patients about what they know and what is realistic, every person is different and needs to be treated as such. There is no one size fits all, different modalities need to be explored and implemented to have optimal success. True healing should empower the patient imo, as is sadly not the case in what is currently the medical paradigm in the united states.

 

[Ringworm]

In Nat's defense Jamie, there are a ton of people that stop eating gluten simply because it is the latest health trend or fad.
They are very annoying as they yammer about it incessently and will most likely move on in 6 months. I'm pretty sure he was referring to them and not you.

For people like my daughter and yourself, I have nothing but respect... it's a hard thing to deal with, tho if I may say it is MUCH easier today then it was 10 years ago.

 

[jamie]

there is a lot of fad diets that are just fads IMO..but then there is also real diseases whos symptoms all seem to be related to the intake of things like gluten or lactose etc..so it is never so black and white. For me living with inflammatory bowel disease and most likely spondylitis(I never bothered to go back and verify the blood tests) was hell before I went to a naturopath and cut out gluten and other things..and even then it was not perfect until I really got onto an extremely clean diet. The best thing for me has been to follow a more primal diet(but not the low carb popular "primal" diet"..I don't go insanely low carb like those people or fear legumes. I just eat gluten free, almost all organic and I try to eat in a way that I think is closer to how indigenous peoples eat..and I eat as much wild foods as I can.

I will say this..the paleo diet is not some bullshit thing with all false claims. Every symptom I had went away for me while I was eating paleo. The only thing about it is that what people call "paleo" is associated with such low carb intake that I don't find it really great(and its not really paleo, but that's a whole other issue). I don't know what else to call my diet..I really believe much of the claims of healing all kinds of things on that diet though. For me I did it and then started to add in more carbs and some legumes back in and I seem to be fine still with that..and many indigenous peoples eat more carbs and legumes and are just fine..

I also believe much of the claims about people healing cancer on raw vegan diets and juice feasts. It is for sure a clean and detoxifying diet. It felt to me like it was also one that left deficiencies for my body when done long term but that does not mean that all the claims about it healing a certain disease are just some quack bs..fasting can also help with certain things but just because you cant fast long term without starving does not mean fasting is all just false claims.

I have gone to mainstream doctors in the past who told me this wont do anything and there is little evidence for any of it etc..well they were wrong. I don't just trust what some overweight guy in a white coat says to me just because he says it. I at least want my doctors to look healthy and in shape themselves. I don't trust ones that don't walk the walk anymore.

It gets really annoying when people who have no experience or anything with any of this go on about how its all woo or peoples imagination etc.

I have watched my mother suffer with spondylitis my whole life and I have seen what gluten and western diets do to her..and how different things are when she is working with a naturopath and sticking to those alternative diets.

 

[The Neural]

There is a reason why any diet cannot be "prescribed" (advised) by an M.D. It is simply extremely difficult to study the results of a diet on a patient, for the most part because a diet is such a complex approach, involving vast amounts of factors. Hence, they may suggest to look into it, but they will never themselves take responsibility to say "go for it, you can hold me responsible".

On the other hand, I have stopped all grains for a month now and my Ankylosing Spondylitis symptoms died down. I still have pain due to permanent damage at my sacroiliac joints, but there is simply so little inflammation that this diet choice can be considered a possibility. Of course, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs do wonders for my inflammation; not to bash medicine completely.

It makes sense that flour is not meant to be the most natural thing to eat on a daily basis. It comes from really hard grains, that no primate would be able to stuff 200 of them and crack them with their teeth. It's an extract, sort of speak. It's meant to be for birds and other animals.

For my condition, there is a theory that backs it up (simple carbs are the primary source of food for a specific bacteria that reside in the bowel and overpopulate it due to a gene). Same with Irritable Bowel Syndrome, that just cannot process such high amounts of sticky flour, along with sticky gluten. Many people tolerate it, but just because we've been eating bread for so long, does not necessarily make it a "natural" food. It's plain, junk sugars, easily converted to energy. The paleo diet has some merit regarding this, and since there is no profit from it (no pills or supplements, nor dieticians and formulas), I tend to see it in a positive light.

This for me boils down to a united approach from both "areas".

 

[Indoril_Nerevar]

good post end, though it should be common sense... unfortunately it isn't :thumb_dow

 

[What a substance]

I see the point of your thread in the title...it seems to be a divisive topic. I have read through the posts and only wish to add a couple of points, more for thought rather than debate.

First

Off course there were SOME very bright shamans; Like those that discovered the magical combination of Banistireopsis Caapi vines & Psychotria Viridis leaves, out of millions of different plant species in the amazon.

How did they "discover" these combinations out of the "...millions of different plant species"? The more one ponders that the more one is left feeling their is little rationality to the chance "discovery" of the combination. It is possible these tribes have spent incalculable years saying "OK, lets try this bark with this leaf, in a brew, and see what happens when we drink it". Me, I don't think that's the story. But their must be an answer that once known is both simple and acceptable; possibly we need to accept some other notions about mankind's ancient history to accept such answers as been potentially truthful.

Second

the psychonautic community tend to idealize shamans and traditional knowledge.

You know that better than me but the point I want to make here is about "traditional knowledge". How old is that tradition? How old are these tribes...these people? I can only offer conjecture based on my own readings but I suggest these tribal peoples are very, very old ...like as old as the Aborigines. The point I am making is that these people (these races, even) had their golden period a long, long time ago...they are now in a slow but inevitable decline. Might it not be possible that the parasitic problem you posted about has not always been an affliction on theses tribes? It is possible the parasite is relatively new to the host...if we accept we are dealing in very, very, very long periods of time.

And whereabouts is Western Medicine in it's progress? In it's infancy, I suggest.

I don't set myself up here as defending shamanistic medicine over western medicine. Both have their uses and limitations. I feel it appropriate to point out that much of western medicine is shamelessly corporate and capitalist and though we champion beating bugs and diseases with pharmo-chemicals I consider the plant kingdom has much to offer.

You said it yourself:

...only through critical thinking and questioning both sides impartially this can be done.

So you were right to mildly berate anyone unquestioningly trumpeting pro-shamanic methods as a panacea.

But I cannot thank you for the picture you posted :!:

 

[endlessness]

Might it not be possible that the parasitic problem you posted about has not always been an affliction on theses tribes? It is possible the parasite is relatively new to the host...if we accept we are dealing in very, very, very long periods of time.

But whether they are old or new, whether this affliction is old or new, they are still making a mistaken diagnosis. And in the exact same way, westerners interacting with them and putting all their hope that shamans will cure their afflictions is also new, and while these shamans may say (and believe) that they can, it's possible that they don't, and that this could cost someone's life.

So I'm just calling for people to question a bit, not to believe in random claims, just out of the 'appeal to tradition' fallacy... When I started this post I had read a handful of posts where people were idealizing shamans, so I wanted to use that example to illustrate my point. Sorry if you did not like the picture. Do you feel I should remove it?

And yes, I agree western corporate medicine can be bad in many ways, but life expectancy has grown significantly and there are many victories too. So also with this western medicine, it's important we keep our critical thinking up and question doctors too. Feel free to start a thread about that if you feel people here in the nexus are idealizing western doctors too much and think it deserves it's own discussion

 

[What a substance]

Sorry if you did not like the picture. Do you feel I should remove it?

No, the picture really is OK and portrays the problem of the parasite well. My northern English humour does not readily transmit via text. I will be more measured or careful with the :!: in future. Apology for any misunderstanding.

and that this could cost someone's life.

I don't want anyone to lose their life, needlessly. But people occasionally do misguidedly invest their trust.

The title of your post is accurate and their is nothing much I can add. I think at this stage in Western development our "civilised" society could do with something akin to a shamanic influence or outlet...in the same way these evolutionary static tribal people now seemingly need western medicines.

I think we are in accord and I therefore concede the points for thought that I raised we're not really addressing the title of the topic you started in a meaningful way that your post deserved. (I think I just wanted to type while I thought).

And I love reading your posts so we're all good