Similarities between Salvia Divinorum and Cannabis

[JustAnotherHuman]

Hi Nexians!

I'm very intrigued by some striking similarities between the Salvia Divinorum plant and the Cannabis plant.

There are two similarities that I've noticed. One is the class of psychoactive compounds that the two plants produce.

Cannabinoids are terpenoid hydrocarbons. Salvinorins are neoclerodane diterpenoid hydrocarbons.

The other is in which parts of each plant these compounds are produced. In both plants, the terpenoids are produced in the glandular trichome of the plant. Where are these trichomes located? In both plants they are found in the leaves, stems, bracts and calyces.

Here's an article describing the location of trichomes on the Salvia Divinorum plant. Localization of Salvinorin A and Related Compounds in Glandular Trichomes of the Psychoactive Sage, Salvia divinorum

And cannabisWhat are Trichomes? Trichome 101

I just think it's fascinating that these two species of plants, although very different, share some commonalities in their physical structure. Both are also, of course great healers for mankind. :d

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Hi Nexians!

I'm very intrigued by some striking similarities between the Salvia Divinorum plant and the Cannabis plant.

There are two similarities that I've noticed. One is the class of psychoactive compounds that the two plants produce.

Cannabinoids are terpenoid hydrocarbons. Salvinorins are neoclerodane diterpenoid hydrocarbons.

The other is in which parts of each plant these compounds are produced. In both plants, the terpenoids are produced in the glandular trichome of the plant. Where are these trichomes located? In both plants they are found in the leaves, stems, bracts and calyces.

Here's an article describing the location of trichomes on the Salvia Divinorum plant. Localization of Salvinorin A and Related Compounds in Glandular Trichomes of the Psychoactive Sage, Salvia divinorum

And cannabisWhat are Trichomes? Trichome 101

I just think it's fascinating that these two species of plants, although very different, share some commonalities in their physical structure. Both are also, of course great healers for mankind. :d

Salvinorin-a and the salvinorin compounds are actually trans-Neoclerodane Diterpene compounds.

And...

Technically, THC and salvinorin are carbohydrate molecules, not hydrocarbons, as they both contain atoms of hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen.

Chemical Structure is the only real similarity between these molecules.

Pharmocologically these compounds could not be more different. Salvinorin-a is a potent kappa opioid receptor agonist, while THC and the cannabinoids are CB1 and CB2 receptor agonists.

Salvinorin-a represents the only known non-alkaloid, non-nitrogenous, selective kappa opioid receptor full agonist.

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A while back I posted on this topic, but it was when I had first started school, needless to say I have learned I good deal since, so I may have made mistakes in nomenclature then, or other student mistakes, regardless, my understanding only increases with time.

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-eg

 

[Bancopuma]

A little random, but I remember smoking some [pure] cannabis from a pipe coming down from a mushroom trip. For some reason, on this occasion, the cannabis launched me directly into a Salvia trip...something I was not expecting, and certainly not seeking!! But it was all there, that really weird hard to describe head space of Savia...it seems my memory of the experience in combination with the mushroom and cannabis was fully capable of launching me back into the Salvia space. Curious to know if anyone has experience anything similar?

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

A little random, but I remember smoking some [pure] cannabis from a pipe coming down from a mushroom trip. For some reason, on this occasion, the cannabis launched me directly into a Salvia trip...something I was not expecting, and certainly not seeking!! But it was all there, that really weird hard to describe head space of Savia...it seems my memory of the experience in combination with the mushroom and cannabis was fully capable of launching me back into the Salvia space. Curious to know if anyone has experience anything similar?

Pure cannabis?

When I consume psilocybe fungi, when I am near the end of the experience, if I take a large inhalation of cannabis, it will bring me back to a short peak, this only lasts 10 minutes or so before one returns to near-baseline...

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Structure of THC versus salvinorin attached.


-eg

 

[Bancopuma]

Pure cannabis, as is not mixed with tobacco, just thought that was worth mentioning. And yes in pretty much all instances, this is precisely what I experience when smoking cannabis on the tail end of mushroom trip...not on this occasion though! I got a ride straight to Salvia space instead for some reason. Thinking back, I may have ingested some Syrian rue prior the mushrooms on this occasion so this may well have contributed to the experience.

 

[JustAnotherHuman]

Salvinorin-a and the salvinorin compounds are actually trans-Neoclerodane Diterpene compounds.

And...

Technically, THC and salvinorin are carbohydrate molecules, not hydrocarbons, as they both contain atoms of hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen.

Chemical Structure is the only real similarity between these molecules.

Pharmocologically these compounds could not be more different. Salvinorin-a is a potent kappa opioid receptor agonist, while THC and the cannabinoids are CB1 and CB2 receptor agonists.

Salvinorin-a represents the only known non-alkaloid, non-nitrogenous, selective kappa opioid receptor full agonist.

-------

A while back I posted on this topic, but it was when I had first started school, needless to say I have learned I good deal since, so I may have made mistakes in nomenclature then, or other student mistakes, regardless, my understanding only increases with time.

-------

-eg[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up entheogenic-gnosis!:thumb_up: Gotta get my facts straight!:d

These two types of plants are obviously very different, both in terms of pharmacology and morphology. I just thought it was interesting that the kinds of compounds they produce and the way that they produce them are somewhat similar.

I was doing some more reading and I found out that many species of plants, algae, lichens and protists produce trichomes. Trichome - Wikipedia

Article describing plant trichomesAngiosperm - Vascular Tissue, Flower, Pollination

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Neither THC nor salvinorins are carbohydrates. A carbohydrate will (more or less, there are always exceptions) have an empirical formula of Cx(H2O)y.

THC is (formally, at least) formed by the fusion of a monoterpene with an alkylphenol, so it's a kind of 'hybrid' compound.

The salvinorins, being oxygenated, are properly referred to as diterpenoids. Diterpenoids make a pretty widespread group of compounds with diverse biological properties. A number of compounds fairly closely related in structure to the salvinorins are insect-repelling antifeedants.

I feel like rooting out some molecular structures for this but I've not the time in this exact moment. Hopefully you'll find it interesting, eg.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Pure cannabis, as is not mixed with tobacco, just thought that was worth mentioning. And yes in pretty much all instances, this is precisely what I experience when smoking cannabis on the tail end of mushroom trip...not on this occasion though! I got a ride straight to Salvia space instead for some reason. Thinking back, I may have ingested some Syrian rue prior the mushrooms on this occasion so this may well have contributed to the experience.

In "true hallucinations" terence McKenna mentions smoking caapi (while on psilocybin), he describes the effect as "vegetable television"

We transferred our equipment to the knoll house and reslung our hammocks. It was
cramped, but it would do until we could move into the forest. Then, almost in a collective
motion, we set out in the early afternoon to the pastures behind the mission. Find the
mushrooms. That was the thought on everyone's mind. We returned that evening to the
house, each with six or eight carefully chosen specimens. These we ate and then, as the
evening's trip deepened, we smoked joints rolled out of shavings of the freshly gathered
Banisteriopsis caapi. The caapi smoke was delicious; it smelled like a light incense, and
each toke synergized beautiful slow-motion volleys of delicate hallucinations, which we
immediately dubbed "vegetable television."

Each burst of imagery would last about fifteen minutes and subside; then we would take
another hit of the caapi smoke. The cumulative effect persisted for a couple of hours. We
triggered it repeatedly, and excitedly discussed it as an example of the sort of thing that
sophisticated shamanic technicians must have been whipping up for each other's
amazement since the late paleolithic. -McKenna ; true hallucinations

Reminded me of the phenomena being discussed...

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Neither THC nor salvinorins are carbohydrates. A carbohydrate will (more or less, there are always exceptions) have an empirical formula of Cx(H2O)y.

THC is (formally, at least) formed by the fusion of a monoterpene with an alkylphenol, so it's a kind of 'hybrid' compound.

The salvinorins, being oxygenated, are properly referred to as diterpenoids. Diterpenoids make a pretty widespread group of compounds with diverse biological properties. A number of compounds fairly closely related in structure to the salvinorins are insect-repelling antifeedants.

I feel like rooting out some molecular structures for this but I've not the time in this exact moment. Hopefully you'll find it interesting, eg.

I would call them carbohydrates over hydrocarbons
*Above the OP suggested that salvinorins were "hydrocarbons", however, hydrocarbons consist of only carbon and hydrogen, if a compound consists of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, it's technically considered a carbohydrate.

A carbohydrate is a biological molecule consisting of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms -wiki

A terpene is a hydrocarbon based on variations of the isoprene structure, terpenoid compounds are closely related, and only differ by oxygen functionality or some structural variation...however, quite often the terms are used interchangeably. Salvinorin-a has been called a transneoclerodane diterpene by many credible sources:

·Salvinorin, A New trans-Neoclerodane Diterpene from Salvia divinorum (Labiatae)
ORTEGA A, BLOUNT JF, MANCHAND PD
(HTML BY ARACHNOPHILIA & EROWID)
1982, 2505-2508.
Journal of the Chemical Society, Perkins Transactions I

Salvinorin, A New trans-Neoclerodane Diterpene from Salvia divinorum (Labiatae), by Alfredo Ortega, 1982

Salvinorin (1) thus belongs to the neoclerodane class of diterpenes, a group of compounds that has attracted considerable interest because of problems associated with their stereochemistry 6 and because of the diverse biological activities shown by some members (e.g. insect antifeedant, antitumor and antifungal properties).7 Except for differences in the substituents and the stereochemistry at C-8 and C-12, salvinorin (1) is structurally similar to salviarin (2)3 and splendidin (3),8 compounds which were recently isolated from S. splendens by Hanson and his collaborators.

And while diterpenoid is technically more accurate, it's really your preference depending on the situation.

Salvinorin-a is depicted first, below it is delta-9-THC

-eg

 

[iksose7]

Reading this thread makes me realize how much i would love to delve into the world of salvia again! Not smoked it in about a decade, but been close to doing so this year. Interesting that similarity that you bring up with cannabis, although i would say the effects are night and day.

 

[BecometheOther]

I can see how they could be distant cousins, but with very different world views. Like one country bumpkin cousin and one city slicker one

 

[JustAnotherHuman]

I can see how they could be distant cousins, but with very different world views. Like one country bumpkin cousin and one city slicker one

I like that analogy BecometheOther! I'm guessing salvia is the country bumpkin and cannabis is the city slicker? Lol:lol:

I just think they are both sacred plants developed by nature for our healing and for elevating our consciousness. Two different manifestations of the divine Source, if you will.

 

[BecometheOther]

Lol exactly. Salvia is the country bumpkin and cannabis the city slicker. Not sure why but it makes perfect sense to me lol