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Smoking harmlala freebase questions?

Migrated topic.


Rising Star
I recently acquired a gram of harmala freebase extracted from sryian rue. My plane is to make some changa with it with some spice I have extracted already ( im supter stoked about that).

But in the mean time I wanted to see if I can get any effects out the just the harmala freebase I have.

I have tried using the sandwich method with a bubblier where I put around 100 milligrams of harmala and toke away. So far no success. I have done this about two or three times, and I just annoyed that I didn't get any effects.

So does the sandwich method work with pure harmala freebase? Or should I use my freebase pipe, which I dont' want to right now cause the inside is coated with spice so I would blast off into hyperspace if, which inset what I want to do. I want just a pure harmala experience.

I was also wondering if I ate a suffuciante amount of harmala freebase I would feel its effects? I Can't find any information on harmala oral dosage besides pharmahuasca, which I'm not sure is efficient of a dosage for a full harmala experience.

So my questions, can harmama freebase be used in the sandwich method for effect? Can they be vaporized for effect? What would the dosage be for oral harmala freebase.

Thank you all,and I am a LONG TIME LUKER (like 7 years) first time poster :d
I just pack a bowl of Cannabis and put some extract on top and smoke away, it works nicely and potentiates the Cannabis ime :)
IME smoking (vaporizing harmala freebase definitely works. The effect is different from conventional psychedelics, far more subtle. An effective dose starts at 15 mg vaporized.

Unlike dmt freebase, the harmala freebase does not melt easily and it also requires a higher temperature for vaporization. The fine powder is easily sucked away into the airstream before getting a chance to be vaporized.

You could dissolve some harmala freebase in hot ethanol and impregnate some neutral herb with it. That is easier to smoke than sandwiching.

Oral harmalas start having noticable effects starting at 75 mg and from 150 mg onwards, the effects become strongly apparent. You can either ingest the harmala freebase as is, flushing them down with some liquid, and have the stomach turn them into a salt. Or you can dissolve them in some acidic drink, be it citrus juice or dilute vinegar, and drink.

Some of these facts are clearly discussed and documented in earlier threads.
How pure is your extract? Sometimes, if an excess of salt was present (after a manske) when basing with sodium carbonate, the sodium carbonate will precipitate alongside the harmalas, giving seemingly higher yields but an impure product. Did you extract it yourself? My speculation is all dependent on what method was used to extract. This has happened to me which is why I ask...

69ron said:
Let me say this again. Salt is SODIUM CHLORIDE. Sodium carbonate is a SODIUM. Both are SODIUMS. Water can only hold so much SODIUM. This is the problem.

If the initial alkaloids are contaminated with too much SODIUM chloride then adding more SODIUM carbonate will cause SODIUM to precipitate out with the harmalas.

Because SODIUM carbonate is less water soluble than SODIUM chloride, then SODIUM carbonate precipitates out, so you'll get harmala alkaloids that taste like SODIUM BICARBONATE because there's sodium carbonate in it.

It's simple chemistry. Water can only hold so much sodium. If there’s too much sodium chloride, added sodium carbonate will not dissolve.

Here is a way to fix it:

69ron said:
Trickster said:
Now, what would be the best way to clean the product?

Trickster, the best solution at this point is to put the product in cold water with a little ice, and mix it for a few minutes. Then filter it until all the water and ice filter through. The sodium carbonate should dissolve and wash away. Harmine is insoluble in water, harmaline is very slightly soluble in cold water. Some loss of harmaline will be had, but no matter what you do, that’s going to happen. Even when you precipitate the alkaloids using salt water, some loss of harmaline occurs. Pretty much at every step in this process, there’s loss of harmaline.

Repeat if there's still some sodium carbonate taste left.

The are other options, but this is the easiest.

These days, I always do a cold water wash or two on my final harmala product to ensure that is free of any excess sodium carbonate. Now, I could be way off but I find it very strange that you would get absolutely no effects from smoking or vaping. I often do the same thing as ShamensStamen, and put about 20mg on top of a bowl of bud and puff away. I love the synergy.

I also use the final product to make changa and for oral administration, all with positive results.

Hope some of this information helps!
I'm not sure if 69ron made much sense there. You see, if there is really too much salt contamination present in the harmala HCl, the harmalas would not dissolve in the first place. When I think about 69ron's reasoning, it makes no sense to me. Here are some rough guesses off the top of my head (I know that I should calculate with solubility product formulas to be correct, but I'll do a rough guesstimate using basic solubilities.)

The solubility of NaCl in water is 359 gram per liter. To have over 359 gram per liter of combined NaCl and Na2CO3 in solution sounds quite exceptional. Again, anything over 100 grams per liter of NaCl will first precipitate harmala HCl, so to get to the 400 gram per liter of sodium salts, there would need to be at least 300 gram of Na2CO3 per liter. To make up a 300 gram per liter solution of Na2CO3, you would need to dissolve almost a kilo of the common decahydrate from. It just makes no sense to do such a thing in order to freebase harmala salts.

Anyway, there is a pretty simple test for excess salt in harmala HCl salts by solution of the unknown mixture in ethanol. It is based on the fact that the harmala HCl salts have moderate solubility in 95% ethanol. I tried this once and IIRC it was more than 25 gram per liter. The TIHKAL harmine synth starts with 0.5 gram harmaline HCl in 8 ml ethanol, so Shulgin states at least 62.5 gram per liter ethanol. Compare this to NaCl's solubility in ethanol: it is 0.65 gram per liter ethanol, or very little.

Here is the procedure:

Dissolve 0.5 gram of the harmala HCl material of unknown NaCl contamination in 8 ml ethanol, possibly aided by a hot water bath and stirring to speed up the dissolution of the harmala HCl a bit. The ethanol can dissolve at most 5.2 milligram NaCL and anything more will not dissolve and will settle at the bottom as a fine white powder. If there is no residue or precipitate, you can conclude that the 0.5 gram harmala HCl contains less than 5.2 mg NaCl impurity, or about 1%. If there is a precipitate, the supernatant can be decanted, the solids dried and weighed and the impurity percentage calculated.

The harmala HCl can be recovered from the ethanol by evaporation. If you want to do this, be certain to use food or medicinal grade 95% ethanol without denaturing agents like bitrex or oil of ipecac.

Well now, I learn something everyday! Here is the original post if interested:

When I first started extracting harmalas I was unsure of the amounts of salt and base to add. I have since corrected this issue. However, I did have an excess of sodium carbonate in my final product the first time and was unsure why it was not very potent. Once I figured out what was going on and cleaned it up it was fine and worked like the extracted harmalas I get today.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I royally screwed up my first extraction by adding a TON of salt and also a TON of sodium carbonate at various stages which is why 69ron's post seemed to make sense to me at least (after all, at that time, I didn't even know what I was looking for having never seen any form of harmalas before). I'm not trying to say that the OP did this but was merely offering advice based on my own previous fallacy.

I apologize if this added confusion to the discussion and thank you for clearing things up, Pitubo.
The Grateful One said:
:) I apologize if this added confusion to the discussion and thank you for clearing things up, Pitubo.
I think the confusion started with 69ron. You mostly helped the discussion. 😉

To state it for the record:

For "Manske salting": Add 100 gram NaCl for each liter of boiling solution of harmalas.

For freebasing: Add the molar equivalent of Na2CO3 of the harmalas HCl present in solution, plus some more Na2CO3 to make sure that the equilibrium is on the side of the harmala freebase. Okay, that didn't sound very "easy", did it? There are two different complications: One is the form of Na2CO3 you have available and the other is the amount of liquid used to dissolve the harmala salts to be freebased.

For issue no.1:
- If you have anhydrous Na2CO3: use (by weight) 1 part Na2CO3 for every 2 parts harmala HCl;
- if you have the decahydrate, use equal parts (by weight);
- if you have the mono- or heptahydrate: use somewhere in between the two above values.

For issue no.2:
Add 1 extra gram Na2CO3 per liter of liquid and it will be fine.

The freebasing procedure assumes that you know the amount of harmalas in solution. This may not be the case with the initial boilings of the original plant material, but for the final step after several purification rounds, you should have a reasonable indication of the amount of harmalas involved. Just weigh the filtered and dried amount of material that resulted from the last step. Keep in mind though that freebase harmalas weigh roughly 80% of the equivalent amount of harmala HCl salt, due to the weight difference from the HCl and the water of hydration.
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