So You Want to IM DMT Fumarate (Or other salt)

[Here&Now]

The reason I thought sterile saline would be best is because of this message:-

What I meant by that message is that if someone were to only depend on bacteriostatic water to ensure that their vial is free from bacteria and other contaminants, that'd be a big mistake since BAC water can only prevent the growth of new bacteria. That means that the extra step of using a wheel filter is important in addition to using BAC water to make sure you start off with the least amount of bacteria possible.

If you were to use saline instead of BAC water, everything would be the same except your new vial wouldn't have the extra protection of preventing new bacteria growth.

Let me know if any of that needs clarification.

 

[Violet Quark]

What I meant by that message is that if someone were to only depend on bacteriostatic water to ensure that their vial is free from bacteria and other contaminants, that'd be a big mistake since BAC water can only prevent the growth of new bacteria. That means that the extra step of using a wheel filter is important in addition to using BAC water to make sure you start off with the least amount of bacteria possible.

If you were to use saline instead of BAC water, everything would be the same except your new vial wouldn't have the extra protection of preventing new bacteria growth.

Let me know if any of that needs clarification.

Brilliant thanks for the clarification.
I'll proceed with extreme caution!

 

[Varallo]

Brilliant thanks for the clarification.
I'll proceed with extreme caution!

I’ve been following this thread and I feel there’s something that really needs to be said.

When DMT is extracted from plant material, the result is unavoidably a mixture that includes a wide range of unwanted things, like residual fats, resins, and other dissolved compounds from all the other chemicals used during extraction, as well as endotoxins and other microbial by-products. These impurities remain, even if you manage to get the solution sterile.

The issue is that anything that is dissolved and endotoxins and similar contaminants pass through wheel filters. They cannot be removed with our level of tools or methods. For this reason, any extract produced at home is fundamentally unsuitable for injection.

@Violet Quark if you want a DMT experience but can’t smoke it, there are alternatives that are far safer. You can work sublingually with harmalas for a milder effect, or combine them orally for a full experience. And if the effects of harmalas are not your preference, moclobemide is an option, so you can still take it orally and have a DMT-only experience.

Finally, my aim in saying this is harm reduction rather than criticism to anyone who choose to ignore the warnings, the associated risks are significant, so I thought it’s important to once again state clearly that for amateurs there is no reliably safe way to do this.

Take care

 

[Here&Now]

@Varallo, no offense taken, and I agree with the substance of your cautionary warning. It's in the spirit of what the DMT-Nexus stands for.

A poorly performed extraction will almost certainly contain byproducts, and even a well-performed extraction may be less than perfect. I personally use synthetic DMT (and other psychedelics) where a certificate of analysis is provided, but there will always be added risks involved using this ROA. Something to keep in mind, @Violet Quark.

 

[Violet Quark]

Thanks again for all the help.
Sadly I wouldn't have a clue where to get synthetic spice from.
All of the warnings have been heeded though, and I'm still considering my options.

 

[Denverevolution]

I've been playing with this in Colorado (where its legal).
I'm very nervous about what I inject in myself so in addition to testing my product at the lab (and finding a lab whose results are reliable) I've been trying every possible purification step (I did multi-step water wash, Desiccation, and multilpe re-x's with different NPS) then salt with fumaric acid and acetone, using sterilized equipment, and as a final step after putting it in sterile saline, using a UV Sterilizer and a micron filter when putting it in vials.

I've only done one batch so far, and have only met one other person with experience doing this, so I'm happy to share notes.

 

[Denverevolution]

My reply was on bacteriostatic water and not wheel filters, I’m all for wheel filters as they are the best solution for drug users.

I picked up a UV sterilizer made for baby bottles and pacifiers to get any viruses or endotoxins that may get through filters.

 

[Here&Now]

I've been playing with this in Colorado (where its legal).
I'm very nervous about what I inject in myself so in addition to testing my product at the lab (and finding a lab whose results are reliable) I've been trying every possible purification step (I did multi-step water wash, Desiccation, and multilpe re-x's with different NPS) then salt with fumaric acid and acetone, using sterilized equipment, and as a final step after putting it in sterile saline, using a UV Sterilizer and a micron filter when putting it in vials.

I've only done one batch so far, and have only met one other person with experience doing this, so I'm happy to share notes.

Have you tried using it yet? It'd be great to get your opinion regarding dosing. There's not a lot of info about intramuscular and subcutaneous DMT.

If you've read through the rest of this thread, you probably realize that I have a lot of experience injecting DMT and other psychedelics. Feel free to ask if you have any questions.

 

[Varallo]

I've been playing with this in Colorado (where its legal).
I'm very nervous about what I inject in myself so in addition to testing my product at the lab (and finding a lab whose results are reliable) I've been trying every possible purification step (I did multi-step water wash, Desiccation, and multilpe re-x's with different NPS) then salt with fumaric acid and acetone, using sterilized equipment, and as a final step after putting it in sterile saline, using a UV Sterilizer and a micron filter when putting it in vials.

I've only done one batch so far, and have only met one other person with experience doing this, so I'm happy to share notes.

Without going into detail, all of the measures mentioned may improve microbial sterility, but they do not remove endotoxins. These pyrogens remain in solution and are unaffected by UV light. Therefore, this approach does not solve the problem and does not make the solution safe.

 

[Here&Now]

Without going into detail, all of the measures mentioned may improve microbial sterility, but they do not remove endotoxins. These pyrogens remain in solution and are unaffected by UV light. Therefore, this approach does not solve the problem and does not make the solution safe.

For my own education, what would be the risks of injection for someone who's gone to this extent in their preparation? Would the endotoxins enter the bloodstream and negatively affect organs? I'm guessing infection at the injection site would always remain a real concern. Compared to ingestion via other ROAs, how much additional risk is associated? I think it'd be helpful to anyone who comes across it if that was quantified in this thread.

 

[Varallo]

For my own education, what would be the risks of injection for someone who's gone to this extent in their preparation? Would the endotoxins enter the bloodstream and negatively affect organs? I'm guessing infection at the injection site would always remain a real concern. Compared to ingestion via other ROAs, how much additional risk is associated? I think it'd be helpful to anyone who comes across it if that was quantified in this thread.

Fever, shock and death.
For percentages see So You Want to IM DMT Fumarate (Or other salt)

I’m not talking about vague or negligible risks here. There is a percentage of people who will develop flu-like symptoms. A smaller subset may go into shock, and an even smaller subset may die. So these are not hypothetical risks, that is why I said earlier that you cannot reasonably expect to produce something at home that is safe to inject.

Are the risks enormous? Probably not. But they do exist. And if you happen to fall into the small percentage of people who experience a fatal reaction, it is deeply unfortunate to die from something that could have been avoided by choosing a different route of administration.

This applies to subcutaneous injection as well. While the risk may be somewhat lower, similar mechanisms are still at play, and the same types of reactions can occur. Changing the injection method does not fundamentally solve the problem.

These events are rare, but they do happen. We also know that some people inject very unclean heroin using tap water or worse. Many of them survive, and some may “get away with it” for a long time, though often with cumulative harm. But some do not survive. Those people, of course, never come back to the internet to report their experience.

That survivorship bias is a funny thing and explains why these risks tend to be underestimated.

 

[Here&Now]

Fever, shock and death.

I’m not talking about vague or negligible risks here. There is a percentage of people who will develop flu-like symptoms. A smaller subset may go into shock, and an even smaller subset may die. So these are not hypothetical risks, that is why I said earlier that you cannot reasonably expect to produce something at home that is safe to inject.

Are the risks enormous? Probably not. But they do exist. And if you happen to fall into the small percentage of people who experience a fatal reaction, it is deeply unfortunate to die from something that could have been avoided by choosing a different route of administration.

This applies to subcutaneous injection as well. While the risk may be somewhat lower, similar mechanisms are still at play, and the same types of reactions can occur. Changing the injection method does not fundamentally solve the problem.

These events are rare, but they do happen. We also know that some people inject very unclean heroin using tap water or worse. Many of them survive, and some may “get away with it” for a long time, though often with cumulative harm. But some do not survive. Those people, of course, never come back to the internet to report their experience.

That survivorship bias is a funny thing and explains why these risks tend to be underestimated.

Thank you, I fully respect your efforts at keeping Nexians safe.

 

[Varallo]

Was just reading up on exact percentages, and found this Pyrogenic reactions and hemorrhage associated with intrinsic exposure to endotoxin-contaminated intravenous solutions - PubMed

A shocking 8% got a fever and from those 17% died. Of course the surgery is a factor, and as they write the saline that was used to mitigate the effects was contaminated as well, so this was compounded. Still a shocking amount of people to get sick and die.

 

[Here&Now]

Was just reading up on exact percentages, and found this Pyrogenic reactions and hemorrhage associated with intrinsic exposure to endotoxin-contaminated intravenous solutions - PubMed

A shocking 8% got a fever and from those 17% died. Of course the surgery is a factor, and as they write the saline that was used to mitigate the effects was contaminated as well, so this was compounded. Still a shocking amount of people to get sick and die.

That certainly is a shocking amount. It'd be an awful way to die, and I suppose the terror would be compounded by the fact that you're potentially tripping out of your mind during the episode.

Just for clarity on the added dangers of injection over other ROAs, doesn't it have to do with the bypassing of biological filtration mechanisms that'd normally occur via other routes? For example, I believe these same endotoxins are being ingested via inhalation, orally, and nasally, but they're not reaching vital systems with the same potential impact.

 

[Varallo]

That certainly is a shocking amount. It'd be an awful way to die, and I suppose the terror would be compounded by the fact that you're potentially tripping out of your mind during the episode.

Just for clarity on the added dangers of injection over other ROAs, doesn't it have to do with the bypassing of biological filtration mechanisms that'd normally occur via other routes? For example, I believe these same endotoxins are being ingested via inhalation, orally, and nasally, but they're not reaching vital systems with the same potential impact.

Exactly, by injecting anything, you bypass all protective mechanisms, I’m still shocked, I mean I knew that there was a significant risk but these numbers are really bad.

 

[Here&Now]

Exactly, by injecting anything, you bypass all protective mechanisms, I’m still shocked, I mean I knew that there was a significant risk but these numbers are really bad.

It's concerning stuff. I appreciate the explanations, and I'll take it to heart in my own experiments as well.