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Solid storage vs Liquid storage. (Extraction to liquid too)

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q21q21

q21q21

SWIM
OG Pioneer
So I'll try to keep this brief.

While I have been absent from the nexus for ages and may have missed changes in trends or whatever this is one thing that I have seen cause so many problems yet have such an easy solution to be used in any extraction.

Ending in a solid, crystal product as a goal when I believe liquid is SUPERIOR in every way.



A few things that I don't like about solid/crystal DMT:
-People stress massively about ending up with a goo (which is still amazing DMT) and very often lose massive amounts of perfectly good product trying to get crystals.
-I've tried Reconstitute goo to crystal in controlled circumstances and lost from some to the majority of the product.
-There are so many little things that can lead to non-crystal DMT that there is nearly an inevitable loss of yield when you try for crystals
-Expensive scales needed for measuring doses which are usually not amazingly accurate (+/- 5mg)
-They stick to the scales losing produce
-Dealing with amounts of 20-50mg requires lots of dexterity and care, spills are common
-scraping crystals off wherever they are precipitated ends in a loss of yield quite inevitably
-Dirt and dust are very attracted to crystals causing not only smoking of gross dust/dirt but also inaccurate weight.
-Much more conspicuous than liquid

A few things about liquid DMT:
-Can be filtered for excellent purity/clarity
-Is innocuous and easy to carry, transport and store
-In (I assume) more stable salt for.
-Dosed and measured via droppers which are VERY easy to use, cheap and very accurate
-It salting DMT from a solvent produces higher yields in my experience (some DMT can be salted from solvent after it is freezer precipitated)
-Whenever needed you can do a purification step of washing/dissolving the product in acidic water (vinegar is my preference) which is extremely quick, and higher yielding when compared to recrystallization and freezer precipitation.
-DMT-acetate in water can be evaporated on demand and smoked to produce the same effects as freebase with all the mentioned benefits.

I could go on but I said I'd keep it short.

I'll conclude by saying:
I am not right, this is my opinion and as always is subject to new information, change. I would love to hear people rebut this
But moreso I would like people to read this and try it out.
I mention in detail how to extract to a liquid and smoke it using the most up-to-date methods I can think of in this thread
and my tek is in my signature

Cheers everyone
 
q21q21 said:
So I'll try to keep this brief.

While I have been absent from the nexus for ages and may have missed changes in trends or whatever this is one thing that I have seen cause so many problems yet have such an easy solution to be used in any extraction.

Ending in a solid, crystal product as a goal when I believe liquid is SUPERIOR in every way.



A few things that I don't like about solid/crystal DMT:
-People stress massively about ending up with a goo (which is still amazing DMT) and very often lose massive amounts of perfectly good product trying to get crystals.
-I've tried Reconstitute goo to crystal in controlled circumstances and lost from some to the majority of the product.
-There are so many little things that can lead to non-crystal DMT that there is nearly an inevitable loss of yield when you try for crystals
-Expensive scales needed for measuring doses which are usually not amazingly accurate (+/- 5mg)
-They stick to the scales losing produce
-Dealing with amounts of 20-50mg requires lots of dexterity and care, spills are common
-scraping crystals off wherever they are precipitated ends in a loss of yield quite inevitably
-Dirt and dust are very attracted to crystals causing not only smoking of gross dust/dirt but also inaccurate weight.
-Much more conspicuous than liquid

A few things about liquid DMT:
-Can be filtered for excellent purity/clarity
-Is innocuous and easy to carry, transport and store
-In (I assume) more stable salt for.
-Dosed and measured via droppers which are VERY easy to use, cheap and very accurate
-It salting DMT from a solvent produces higher yields in my experience (some DMT can be salted from solvent after it is freezer precipitated)
-Whenever needed you can do a purification step of washing/dissolving the product in acidic water (vinegar is my preference) which is extremely quick, and higher yielding when compared to recrystallization and freezer precipitation.
-DMT-acetate in water can be evaporated on demand and smoked to produce the same effects as freebase with all the mentioned benefits.

I could go on but I said I'd keep it short.

I'll conclude by saying:
I am not right, this is my opinion and as always is subject to new information, change. I would love to hear people rebut this
But moreso I would like people to read this and try it out.
I mention in detail how to extract to a liquid and smoke it using the most up-to-date methods I can think of in this thread
and my tek is in my signature

Cheers everyone
Click to expand...
I know I’ve read somewhere (maybe TIHKAL?) that DMT salts, although very stable in their dry salt form, are not very stable when in solution. So this isn’t a good method of long-term storage. For short term storage (weeks? months? I don’t know) it’s probably fine.

You really stack the deck in your favor regarding solid vs. liquid storage:

Solid Storage

-- I’ve never had an extraction yield only “goo”. With good technique and quality MHRB, it’s possible to get crystals every time.
-- A milligram scale can be purchased for under $30, so it is no more expensive than a scale with less precision.
-- When weighing product, I put it on a small piece of paper. Product doesn’t stick to the paper or the scale.
-- If product is kept in a vial, it is easy to tap out a precise amount without spillage.
-- I use a square pyrex baking dish for precipitation, and since it’s surfaces are mostly flat, there is no appreciable loss of product when scraping up crystals.
-- Crystals in a sealed container attract no more dust than a liquid.

Liquid Storage

-- It’s true that liquid can be filtered to remove particulates, but this can also be done with naphtha prior to freeze precipitation.
-- What’s easier to carry: A sealed vial of liquid or a sealed vial of powder? I think there’s no difference. But if the cap on the vial is a bit loose, the liquid could drain out, whereas a solid would remain in the vial.
-- DMT in solid salt form is more stable than DMT freebase, but DMT salts in aqueous solution are probably less stable than freebase.
-- What’s easier: Measuring a dose of DMT freebase and putting it into a smoking device, or measuring a dose of sticky DMT acetate (how much do you need for a dose?) heating it to drive off the acetic acid (are you actually removing all of the acid and acetate and not inadvertently pyrolizing some of the DMT?), and then putting the resultant impure product in a smoking device.
 
^ but you are missing half the yield then gibran, and that is just a fact I think that most here have proven. If you use less selective solvents you get a much larger yield, and impurities cannot account for that since you end up wth many more doses. I have extracted with naptha, xylene and limonene..and I prefer the blood red goo of both limo and xylene to naptha xtals becasue I can easily pull over 2% on many occasions with both of those solvents, and it still smokes very clean and does not seem any less potent than the xtals. I have had 2.5% before with long limo pulls and acetate salting.

Dont get me wrong, I love crystals..but I feel that mimosa is such a special thing to even get ahold of and have in my life that I wouldnt want to let any of the DMT it contains go to waste. I have tried to get this red stuff to crystalize but I just cant..most likely becasue some of it is oxides, which I am fine with since oxides are still wonderful. The only form that it will crystalize in is when I convert them to fumerates..

It would be interesting to pull with limo, then reduce it all with zinc, then pull it again with naptha and see what that yields.

One could always pull first with naptha though, and then pull with xylene or limonene.

This is why these days I prefer the red stuff, and salting with acetate is so easy, it is so easy to convert to freebase and I get a very clean smoking product..actaully it is the cleanest I have ever smoked, including xtals.

Sometimes I have the urge to grow large white crystals though just for the fun of it..havent in a long time though.
 
fractal enchantment said:
^ but you are missing half the yield then gibran, and that is just a fact I think that most here have proven. If you use less selective solvents you get a much larger yield, and impurities cannot account for that since you end up wth many more doses. I have extracted with naptha, xylene and limonene..and I prefer the blood red goo of both limo and xylene to naptha xtals becasue I can easily pull over 2% on many occasions with both of those solvents, and it still smokes very clean and does not seem any less potent than the xtals. I have had 2.5% before with long limo pulls and acetate salting.
Click to expand...
The OP is addressing mainly the issue of storage, and you’re addressing mainly the method of extraction. A less selective solvent such as xylene will indeed pull more stuff out of the bark, but what exactly is that stuff? Some of it is no doubt psychoactive and may add to an experience, but some of it might be inert and only serve to dilute the end-product. (Also, if you’re measuring yield of the acetate salts rather than freebase, you’re going to get higher yields just because the salt is heavier than the corresponding freebase.)

I don’t think that there’s any reason to believe that a standard A/B using naphtha as the solvent will produce less yield of DMT than other methods. The increased yield seen with other methods is from alkaloids other than DMT, some of which may serve only as inert “filler”.

Regardless, and in general, it is easier to handle and store dry powders than it is to handle and store liquids.
 
There are definitely advantages of liquids for measuring precise dosages--no question about that. There are also "detection advantages" in storing water-like liquids; people don't think of a clear liquid being a "drug." It could be easily disguised, too.

It would be very interesting to have a definitive answer about how well DTM-acetate would store long-term in solution. I wonder how it would do, stored in the freezer, with an atmosphere of N2? N2 is cheap and easy.
 
Though if you have some liquid vial in some fancy freezer with N2 atmosphere, it won't look very stealth :p

Most of the alkaloids we deal with here are very stable, and with also active oxides. If you put it in the freezer, or even just fridge, in a more or less airtight container, it seems to already store it basically indefinitely. Ive never seen dmt (or harmalas) get bad in the fridge, and ive seen a few years old dmt... I've only seen room temperature dmt gets darker color but still very active (unnoticeable difference from normal dmt in GVG), I would guess a very superficial oxidation (since dmt n-oxide is an oil)

I would say keep whatever way you want, just have some good sense, and in your own situation as best as possible keep the classic storage guideliness: cold, dark, dry, airtight.
 
endlessness said:
Though if you have some liquid vial in some fancy freezer with N2 atmosphere, it won't look very stealth :p
Click to expand...

Nobody knows what the atmosphere in a closed bottle, container, or plastic wrap is.

Would some "dregs" of "water" in the bottom of a water bottle in your refrigerator look stealthy?
 
gibran2 said:
fractal enchantment said:
^ but you are missing half the yield then gibran, and that is just a fact I think that most here have proven. If you use less selective solvents you get a much larger yield, and impurities cannot account for that since you end up wth many more doses. I have extracted with naptha, xylene and limonene..and I prefer the blood red goo of both limo and xylene to naptha xtals becasue I can easily pull over 2% on many occasions with both of those solvents, and it still smokes very clean and does not seem any less potent than the xtals. I have had 2.5% before with long limo pulls and acetate salting.
Click to expand...
The OP is addressing mainly the issue of storage, and you’re addressing mainly the method of extraction. A less selective solvent such as xylene will indeed pull more stuff out of the bark, but what exactly is that stuff? Some of it is no doubt psychoactive and may add to an experience, but some of it might be inert and only serve to dilute the end-product. (Also, if you’re measuring yield of the acetate salts rather than freebase, you’re going to get higher yields just because the salt is heavier than the corresponding freebase.)

I don’t think that there’s any reason to believe that a standard A/B using naphtha as the solvent will produce less yield of DMT than other methods. The increased yield seen with other methods is from alkaloids other than DMT, some of which may serve only as inert “filler”.

Regardless, and in general, it is easier to handle and store dry powders than it is to handle and store liquids.
Click to expand...

Burnt analyzed the stuff pulled with other solvents and it was indeed mostly DMT. It is indistinguishable from naptha pulled DMT IME and you get many more doses out of these pulls that you would naptha.

Storing acetates in a closed vial is possible out of "liquid" form. You can dry the stuff so that the acetate still remains and the DMT is in salt form yet there is no water left. It is quite evident when you do this tek that at one stage the product is dry yet requires more time in a dehydrator or double boiler to completely convert it. You should be able to store it at that stage as acetates for a long time I would think in a closed container where no more acetates will evaporate.

I mention this along with the other factors I mentioned having to do with the common method of extraction of these acetates because it just seems that when I concider all of it, it just makes much more sense for me to extract and store it this way..it is easier and the yields are larger.

About what these extraction may pull..I cant remember the thread but burnt did analyze the "jungle spice" and it was DMT. I dont think this is really speculation anymore that these teks pull alot more DMT than naptha ever will. Alot of people here know this from experience.
 
I just need to get better at handling the acetate, because right now, it's a pain. Sticky, gooey, messy stuff.

Another problem I have is -- if you heat it down over a spoon, how is best to transfer that into your smoking device as is? In that form, I usually sandwich spice between layers of plant material.

I'm also experimenting with enhancing some leaf with this goo and it looks like it's turning out pretty good, but I have yet to smoke it.
 
HermeticShaman said:
I just need to get better at handling the acetate, because right now, it's a pain. Sticky, gooey, messy stuff.

Another problem I have is -- if you heat it down over a spoon, how is best to transfer that into your smoking device as is? In that form, I usually sandwich spice between layers of plant material.

I'm also experimenting with enhancing some leaf with this goo and it looks like it's turning out pretty good, but I have yet to smoke it.
Click to expand...

I weight my evaporation dish before hand, and then evaporate the vinegar in there..once it is down to a thick goo and most of the vinegar smell is gone I weigh it again and then just add the same ammount of leaf so I have a 1/1 mix..I then evaporate it more while stirring it around occasionally. The ammount of acetates still in there when I weight it are so minor I dont worry about it effecting my weight. The changa is always very very potent and 50mg of that stuff will be a very powerful trip.
 
I like the response, just want to make sure to say "lets keep this as a gentleman's debate, which is currently is"
it is good so far but I'm sure we can recall some threads that derailed from similar starting.

A really interesting (double-blind, placebo-controlled, peer reviewed, scientific) study I'd like to mention basically went as follows:
They brought 2 strong arguments, 1 liberal and 1 conservative to people know to be to the right or to the left and they were asked which they agreed with.
Of course the VAST majority picture the side they were already leaning toward.
In the same trial members were given identical information but asked to be OBJECTIVE about their decision. The result was identical, left leaners decided to side with the left. Interestingly the participants reported as being very objective in their decision though.

A way to overcome this predisposition to going with a bias is to debate on the opposite side strongly and thoroughly, the test showed people actually were much more objective when doing that.

Anyway, I've tried to do so and I'm just responding to a few of the posts":

Gibran is right I did mostly address storage but I am enjoying hearing different sides of the extraction debate

As for storage: I am aware that many substances degrade much faster when aqueous, in my experience storring 2c-e, 2c-i,2c-t,2, 4-aco-DMT, 5-meo-DMT, MDPV, Methylone and other chemicals in liquid I have only seen the tryptamines "degrade" but after changing color, oxidizing I believe, they stay like that and actually do not lose any potency. Many claim there is a subjective difference in these oxides though it is debated.
Personally I have smoked acetate tincture over 1 year old with no subjective difference in strength or effects which is similar to properly stored crystals (only smoked 6-8month old crystals but heard they keep longer)

True the 1 advantage to the crystals could be the ready-to-smoke quality but fractal has definately pointed out that acetate changa can be made on demand and is at par (maybe better) with changa from solid fumurate-->freebase or crystal DMT changa. Personally I conjecture that the yield is higher when extracting using xylene/d-limonene but I have only compared separate extractions but I'm sure we can agree that the yield is not LESS than naptha.

I did just make that list off the top of my head and really the innocuousness is not a strong point I just want to point out.

Right now I am thinking of making a separate guide for acetate salting, storage and evaporation with pictures and stuff. Anyone think that would be worth the effort? :D
 
I'm particularly interested in information about acetate salts of DMT--because of their high solubility in water. I'm interested in further investigating the idea of nebulizing dissolved DMT-acetate for inhalation.
 
q21q21 said:
True the 1 advantage to the crystals could be the ready-to-smoke quality but fractal has definately pointed out that acetate changa can be made on demand and is at par (maybe better) with changa from solid fumurate-->freebase or crystal DMT changa. Personally I conjecture that the yield is higher when extracting using xylene/d-limonene but I have only compared separate extractions but I'm sure we can agree that the yield is not LESS than naptha.

I did just make that list off the top of my head and really the innocuousness is not a strong point I just want to point out.

Right now I am thinking of making a separate guide for acetate salting, storage and evaporation with pictures and stuff. Anyone think that would be worth the effort? :D
Click to expand...

I don't think there can be any doubt that xylene or d-limo would pull a greater yield considering it pulls other active alkaloids that naptha is not pulling. This simple fact is what got me to start experimenting with solvents other than naptha so I could experience the difference in yield and effects in full spectrum pulls.

I just got some fumaric acid in today and so later plan on experimenting with that and seeing where it goes.

and YES -- making a guide for salting, storage, and evaporation would be extremely helpful. Your basic tek is awesome and informative, so I think you'd make quite a handy guide. And for that matter... PLEASE DO! It would be so helpful to me going into the future.
 
HermeticShaman said:
I don't think there can be any doubt that xylene or d-limo would pull a greater yield considering it pulls other active alkaloids that naptha is not pulling.
Click to expand...
Burnt's work showed that, following standard A/B or STB procedure, there is only one other alkaloid in jungle spice and it comprises ~5% of the product. The alkaloid (2-MTHBC, iirc) could be a relatively strong inhibitor of MAO, lending itself to increased potency/duration or other effects, but afaik, that has yet to be determined.
 
I don't know, for me I just don't see the point. I mean your tek, the Q21Q21 naphtha tek, yields the purest white crystals and is the most straight forward easiest tek I've ever seen.

I also would not put anything other than dry crystals/powder in my GVG, no goo!
 
fractal enchantment said:
Burnt analyzed the stuff pulled with other solvents and it was indeed mostly DMT. It is indistinguishable from naptha pulled DMT IME and you get many more doses out of these pulls that you would naptha.
Click to expand...
A full-spectrum alkaloid mix pulled from MHRB is of course going to be mostly DMT because DMT is the predominant alkaloid in MHRB. I’ve had very pure yields as high as 1.8% from good quality bark using only naphtha as the solvent.

What I’m suggesting is this: Pull as much DMT as you can get using naphtha, then pull whatever remains using xylene or something similar. The question then is what does the xylene pull contain and how much? Are you saying that it’s mostly DMT? I don’t think so.

I suppose the most convenient form of DMT for people depends on the method of smoking used and other personal preferences. Boiling down a liquid for use in changa makes sense, but if you like to vaporize very pure DMT in a GVG (as I do) then it isn’t the best way to prepare or store DMT.
 
SnozzleBerry said:
Burnt's work showed that, following standard A/B or STB procedure, there is only one other alkaloid in jungle spice and it comprises ~5% of the product. The alkaloid (2-MTHBC, iirc) could be a relatively strong inhibitor of MAO, lending itself to increased potency/duration or other effects, but afaik, that has yet to be determined.
Click to expand...

That's very interesting... I've been looking for more clarification on what else is going on with the jungle spice.

There seems to be a pretty common report of higher yields by % going the jimjam route than with naptha freeze precips. and a definite difference in experience in smoking jungle spice as opposed to white crystals. I wonder why the other solvents seem to be pulling more than naptha, then? Interesting stuff...

I get between .75-1% with naptha pulls and don't have enough experience yet (or a good way of weighing) with acetates to make a fair comparison, but this is opening up a new area of exploration for me.
 
And as a side note, I'm open to messing with the goo because I have found that changa/enhanced leaf is my preferred method for smoking (for now, I have yet to try a GVG and won't be shelling out the money for it for a while, more than likely) But there is something special to me about the spice mixed with the plant material. It's probably because I smoked so much cannabis in my life (not anymore), that it just seems comfortable and familiar to go this route, but I'll have to give an honest opinion about the GVG later.
 
HermeticShaman said:
SnozzleBerry said:
Burnt's work showed that, following standard A/B or STB procedure, there is only one other alkaloid in jungle spice and it comprises ~5% of the product. The alkaloid (2-MTHBC, iirc) could be a relatively strong inhibitor of MAO, lending itself to increased potency/duration or other effects, but afaik, that has yet to be determined.
Click to expand...

That's very interesting... I've been looking for more clarification on what else is going on with the jungle spice.

There seems to be a pretty common report of higher yields by % going the jimjam route than with naptha freeze precips. and a definite difference in experience in smoking jungle spice as opposed to white crystals. I wonder why the other solvents seem to be pulling more than naptha, then? Interesting stuff...

I get between .75-1% with naptha pulls and don't have enough experience yet (or a good way of weighing) with acetates to make a fair comparison, but this is opening up a new area of exploration for me.
Click to expand...
If you look at the thread I linked in the earlier post, you'll see burnt says that you can essentially keep on pulling from your jungle spice with heptane and you'll keep getting pure dmt. The less selective solvents do pull more product...that product is ~95% dmt and ~5% 2-MTHBC...there's a couple threads around on it, if you search for things relating to jungle spice they should pop up. There's some great analytical data as well as subjective stuff.

gibran2 said:
What I’m suggesting is this: Pull as much DMT as you can get using naphtha, then pull whatever remains using xylene or something similar. The question then is what does the xylene pull contain and how much? Are you saying that it’s mostly DMT? I don’t think so.
Click to expand...
Actually, that's pretty much what I understood burnt's analysis to show, unless I'm mistaken.

EDIT: Unless you're specifically saying that the only jungle spice that qualifies is after other pulls have been done and the bark is theoretically exhausted...which burnt said he'd look into but I don't know if that was ever posted. But I feel like, seeing as these results held true for a number of pulls, isn't it just as likely that people were pulling with selective solvents, then switched to less selective solvents and continued to extract what would have already been collected if they'd used non-selective solvents from the start?
 
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