Some weird event...

[Infundibulum]

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[fourthripley]

One of the strongest measures of person is how well they treat those of whom they have no obligation to treat well. One the strongest values of an action the the possibility of offense. This was a noble deed.

Just make sure they don't find out where you live:wink:

 

[Infundibulum]

I've been to places and i've spoken to people when totally leathered, never remember anything the day after. i guess this must be the case with these guys as well!

 

[ohayoco]

Ok here's my personal over-analysis of the situation, please take it just as an opinion and not an attack. I want to say first and foremost that you did what you thought was right at the time, so you can feel justified that you did your best.

The sandwiches and water were an unquestionably helpful act of compassion.

Helping them with their fix... that's more problematic. You endangered your own freedom and safety for an act that was futile in the least, and arguably destructive in that your actions may be seen as an endorsement of the habitual use of needles (unless you had explained your actions to them very carefully beforehand). What if you had got caught? Or accidentally pricked yourself with the needle while fumbling around in the dark? The benefits don't outweigh the risks. And you were helping them to destroy their own bodies, even if you did do it cleaner than they may have.

I would only see giving them a fix as undestructive if you were a medical doctor (or were sufficiently qualified in some other way) and gave them a pure fix administered orally, for example, even better an alternative that could help them off their addiction (whatever your ideological views on drug use, you must agree that their addiction does not help their situation). Hence my excitement when I thought you'd given them spice. But this may involve inviting them into your home and that again creates more risk. If you are a doctor, then you will already know what is required of you by the Hippocratic Oath, so I'm assuming you're not.

Ask yourself these questions (I'm not suggesting any of them to be the case, just offering this to help you own self-analysis):

-Were you giving them their fix out of pure compassion?
-Or did you subconsciously want to show off that you knew how to find a vein better than them?
-Or did you want them to look up to you as their saviour?
-What would you do if you found them there the next day, and the next?
-Have you thought about volunteering a little time or money to a soup kitchen or similar charity for the homeless or addicts?

 

[Infundibulum]

Ok here's my personal over-analysis of the situation, please take it just as an opinion and not an attack. I want to say first and foremost that you did what you thought was right at the time, so you can feel justified that you did your best.

The sandwiches and water were an unquestionably helpful act of compassion.

Helping them with their fix... that's more problematic. You endangered your own freedom and safety for an act that was futile in the least, and arguably destructive in that your actions may be seen as an endorsement of the habitual use of needles (unless you had explained your actions to them very carefully beforehand). What if you had got caught? Or accidentally pricked yourself with the needle while fumbling around in the dark? The benefits don't outweigh the risks. And you were helping them to destroy their own bodies, even if you did do it cleaner than they may have.

I would only see giving them a fix as undestructive if you were a medical doctor (or were sufficiently qualified in some other way) and gave them a pure fix administered orally, for example, even better an alternative that could help them off their addiction (whatever your ideological views on drug use, you must agree that their addiction does not help their situation). Hence my excitement when I thought you'd given them spice. But this may involve inviting them into your home and that again creates more risk. If you are a doctor, then you will already know what is required of you by the Hippocratic Oath, so I'm assuming you're not.

Ask yourself these questions (I'm not suggesting any of them to be the case, just offering this to help you own self-analysis):

-Were you giving them their fix out of pure compassion?
-Or did you subconsciously want to show off that you knew how to find a vein better than them?
-Or did you want them to look up to you as their saviour?
-What would you do if you found them there the next day, and the next?
-Have you thought about volunteering a little time or money to a soup kitchen or similar charity for the homeless or addicts?

There is not much really point in overanalysing things. I never do because it usually leads to no action just in case action may have a negative impact or whatever. It is as simple as that, some person needs help and you offer him help. And yeah I'm a doctor but not a medical doctor, and very proficient in giving injections; if I can IV a mouse then IV a human is a piece of cake. And I can do it in the safest possible way.

Consider this example. You see the granny having some difficult time carrying her bags, so you offer to help her. That's all. The granny might actually be the worst bitch in the neighborhood and actually she also carries a gun in her bags with which she plans to kill her son later on. You of course do not know these stuff, you just help another person and of course you do not start thinking:

-Were you helping the granny out of pure compassion?
-Or did you subconsciously want to show off that you have stornger muscles than the granny?
-Or did you want her to look up to you as her saviour?
-What would you do if you found them there the next day, and the next?
-Have you thought about volunteering a little time or money to a soup kitchen or similar charity for the homeless or addicts?

You don'r ask all those silly questions, you just do the deed.

 

[ohayoco]

As I said it was no disrespect so don't take offence, I was only writing that stuff because you felt the need to ask people on here whether you did the right thing or not! That's the kind of stuff a psychologist might be thinking if you were talking to them about it, and you could learn a lot about yourself by asking such 'silly questions'. You can think after an action as well as before, to benefit from hindsight and act more appropriately in future.

And injecting someone with drugs is very different from helping a granny with her handbag. What if the drug addict needed some help stealing a car radio?! You don't just automatically help people because they want you to.

Anyway that's my opinion and you're free to ignore it. I wonder from that last email whether all you wanted was for people to pat you on the back, seeing as how you don't think there's 'much point in overanalysing things'. Again, no disrespect intended.

And yes, some people do 'charitable' but futile things because they enjoy being smug about themselves and showing off about it (like some celebrities). They just do something to 'help' and waste energy because they can't be bothered to think about how to do it meaningfully. Others really want to help and think before acting to make sure that what they're doing is effective. Again I'm not talking about you here so don't take it personally.

 

[Infundibulum]

No prob mate, it is always helpful to hear about other people's opinions about controversial subjects as this situation. That is why I started the topic in the first place. And any opinions are of course extremely welcome.

If not anything else, I like arguing. The only think I cannot understand from what you wrote in your post is whether you would consider the said action a fair action or not. As a matter of fact I do not think that overanalysing is too important in this situation simply because everything can be overanalysed to the point of exhaustion. Typing on my computer right now can be overanalysed to show that my current action somehow harms society and kills people somewhere else in the world, like that:

-Have I thought how much electricity is required to produce and operate my computer?
-have I thought where this energy is coming from?
-Have I thought how much forest has burn to collect this electricity?
-..and how many people have been exploited to produce this electricity, how many people have suffered for me being able to do what I am doing now, how many organisms may become endagered etc etc...

Of course I am not too serious about these questions above. I am just trying to show that overanalysing sometimes does not help that much.

And the only point I can disagree with you is that I saw no arguments for your said opinion on your posts. Just an overanalysis of what could had happened and what might had happened. My argument is that I just helped some people to do something they would anyway do in a safe way.

Any counterarguments on that?

 

[amor_fati]

My only concern is whether it was done out of pity or not. The point about risking incarceration is valid, but only insofar as the deed was done out of some sort messianic moral fulfilment; in which case the deed betrays the doer, because that deed loses any intended altruism to the likelihood of self-fulfillment. If the deed was done out of more of an existential prerogative, even out of some sense of solidarity--as in a display of camaraderie or even leadership--in which a strong example is to be set, the deed cannot really be said to be right or wrong and can only be valuated in terms of its impact (on the doer or otherwise).

Certainly it is something that you either do or don't do and can't stop to think about at the moment. If one's inclination is such, it is such, but subsequent analysis is important for determining why and what for and revaluating one's inclinations.

 

[ohayoco]

The only think I cannot understand from what you wrote in your post is whether you would consider the said action a fair action or not.

As I said, you did what you thought best at the time so you have no cause for regret. I personally wouldn't've gone further than giving them the sandwich and water, but I'm me and you're you.

Typing on my computer right now can be overanalysed to show that my current action somehow harms society and kills people somewhere else in the world, like that:
-Have I thought how much electricity is required to produce and operate my computer?
-have I thought where this energy is coming from?
-Have I thought how much forest has burn to collect this electricity?
-..and how many people have been exploited to produce this electricity, how many people have suffered for me being able to do what I am doing now, how many organisms may become endagered etc etc...
Of course I am not too serious about these questions above. I am just trying to show that overanalysing sometimes does not help that much.

Actually, you should be thinking this kind of thing, but not those specific questions! And you only have to think about your energy use in general, not every specific instance:

-where is this energy is coming from?
IF ANSWER= general supplier, then switch to a green supplier such as Ecotricity
IF ANSWER= green supplier, well done!
IF ANSWER= your own wind turbine, double well done!

You should always be asking whether or not the company exploits people before buying anything off them if you have the means to find out (i.e. when they're a known brand)... and you should already know who to avoid. The numbers involved are irrelevent and you've made your other questions deliberately trivial in a sneaky attempt to win the argument

And the only point I can disagree with you is that I saw no arguments for your said opinion on your posts. Just an overanalysis of what could had happened and what might had happened. My argument is that I just helped some people to do something they would anyway do in a safe way.

Well, YOU think you helped them. I think you endangered your own freedom for a futile act and it's questionable whether or not you actually did help them. You want arguments for why this is a valid opinion? 1. You're injecting them, cops come along, you're busted and go to jail. 2. You're injecting them, prick your skin accidentally in the dark, contract HIV, hep C etc (it happens to enough nurses and doctors every year that they produce statistics for it, and they're not working in the dark). 3. You're failing as miserably as they did to find a vein and they get impatient and angry with you for it and beat you up. 4. They see your act as a condonement of the habitual use of needles and this reduces a potential fledgling desire to stop using. 5. After you get them high they OD and die. 6. Maybe they would've given up on their own, wailed in sorrow, and gone to seek solace with, say, a local charity, or a priest, and turned their lives around.

I'm on your side man! My questions for you about why you think you decided to do it were just for learning about yourself, because you did something potentially dangerous for no gain to anyone in my eyes. For example, if you HAD done it just to show off (you sound proud in describing your skills with a needle, although I may well be mistaken in my reading), maybe you'd realised that such a motivation wasn't worth risking getting busted etc over. If you want to endanger yourself pointlessly, go for it, it's your life. I think you could've spent that time better at the soup kitchen, that is my personal view.

But as I said... you did what you thought best at the time and that is all that can be expected of any of us, and in any case I personally didn't find your choice morally reprehensible, just dangerous. I often find myself saying to myself "Oops, don't do that again"! Peace

 

[Infundibulum]

True, I like your answer.

I agree on the potential dangers of my action, that is true. But non of them crossed my mind at the moment, I just put my ass down to help them. And I think I would do the very same thing if I had to decide again on this very evening.

Not that I will be walking around in the dark from now on like batman and help heroin users inject themselves!

 

[ohayoco]

Now, if you had done it for them but while doing so explained to them about some rehabilitation programme and slipped them a card with its phone number on it, that could've changed their lives. I keep meaning to get info like that to give to the homeless, but such is life I keep forgetting to find out the relevent info. Most of them have mental problems and so I wonder if they have the initiative. I don't know, I don't know enough about the problems they face... I'm meaning to educate myself about it.

Whether you did the right thing or not, you are brave, that's for sure

 

[Infundibulum]

Now, if you had done it for them but while doing so explained to them about some rehabilitation programme and slipped them a card with its phone number on it, that could've changed their lives. I keep meaning to get info like that to give to the homeless, but such is life I keep forgetting to find out the relevent info. Most of them have mental problems and so I wonder if they have the initiative. I don't know, I don't know enough about the problems they face... I'm meaning to educate myself about it.

Whether you did the right thing or not, you are brave, that's for sure

Thanks, again, I like your suggestions. It shows that one can do much more (in this or similar situations) so as to really help a situation in the long term.

I have to agree on the fact that I did not offer any useful, long term and/or meaningful assistance to these guys. I was not even intending to. Now that I am thinking about that (while a bit drunk) I would not consider my action better than offering a lighter to some stranger who would be in need to light his/her joint. And I did not considered their position as a problem to begin with. I guess I just saw a fellow drug user in some kind of need for assistance.

 

[burnt]

You can't change a junkies life. Only a junkie can change a junkies life. Every single time they shoot up they make the decision to take drugs again its their decision and its their fault. If you help them out and make them happy for a moment who cares? Its not like you sold them the drugs (that's a story where you could make a moral argument against).

Too many of my friends turned into junkies and you know what I think about it? Its their own stupid fault!

(edit): sorry for the outburst SWIM was venting. Stupid friends that SWIM cares about making dumb decisions is frustrating.

 

[ohayoco]

Yeah sure, I agree that in some cases they want to be on it, but some people are junkies because they're miserable and it's an easy way out, a prop that they can no longer function without... I'm told that a lot of junkies want to be off it but don't have the willpower to go it alone... same as how obese people moan about being fat while stuffing another cake in their mouth, or 40-a-day smokers bore everyone about how they're going to give up while puffing away, or alcoholics drinking themselves into a stupor and beating their wives in front of their kids then crying about it afterwards... it's an emotional problem that got many of these people addicted... it's easy to scorn them and write them off- they may seem weak to the stronger willed but that doesn't mean they don't deserve help if they want it. The problem with addiction is that once you're there it's very hard to get out even if you want to... and many people don't realise the price to be paid until they're already paying it. Yeah, they made a big mistake, but that doesn't mean they should be doomed and shunned.

Infundibulum, I find it funny that you class them as 'fellow drug users!', DMT and skag being very different... who isn't a drug user if the field is that wide? And their 'position' IS a problem if THEY feel it is, being broke, homeless, veinless and all... sure that particular couple might be fine living on the streets begging/robbing for skag, but you're wrong if you assume they all want that life.

I know of two junky friends of friends who are currently off the skag... one sits in her home alone every day because she's shitscared that her old friends will demand money off her or draw her back into that world, she needs to move away but doesn't have the money, but still she's happy to be off it... the other is only off it because she is currently in prison, and she says she's glad.

And I know a couple of people struggling with alcoholism... they don't want to be alkies, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to give up.

I forget his name but I watched a programme about some legendary surfer who got addicted to heroin. All his friends abandoned him... except one, who stuck by him while he was being an asshole, and then was there for him when he needed help to give up. The guy broke into tears saying how thankful he was that he had such a great friend. I'm sure there are many stories like this... just as there are people who are happy to continue using.

 

[ohayoco]

(Should point out that I'm no saint... I avoid junkies like the plague! But I am grateful for the organisations and initiatives aimed at helping them if they want to make a change, and I would help a friend if they were in need... I have been trying to get my friend's alcoholic brother to try some aya but he didn't like the sound of it... but still he is giving up the old fashioned way after the concern shown by his family and friends)