SP Tea water issues

[Tigress108]

Hey all, I am new to this forum but not new to brewing in SP. When brewing the tea, I have no issues with water when I have brewed in Peru (surprisingly) but in the US, I have found the water to be a constant issue. The typical filtered tap water is so hard/ mineral rich it does not seem to allow the pull of the mescaline properly from the plants. I have tried using local springs, and they were still too high in mineral content. I have used distilled water, and added a pinch of minerals but when I brew it still seems off. I have read in some places distilled water alone is not great and can also destroy the mescaline alkaloids. Curious if anyone can confirm the issue with plain distilled water and if anyone knows if there are any specifics around optimal mineral profiles/ hard/ softness of water for brewing SP tea?

 

[acacian]

Hmm, I'd be interested to know how distilled water might destroy the alkaloids. Have you tried rain water?

 

[pete666]

Hey all, I am new to this forum but not new to brewing in SP. When brewing the tea, I have no issues with water when I have brewed in Peru (surprisingly) but in the US, I have found the water to be a constant issue. The typical filtered tap water is so hard/ mineral rich it does not seem to allow the pull of the mescaline properly from the plants. I have tried using local springs, and they were still too high in mineral content. I have used distilled water, and added a pinch of minerals but when I brew it still seems off. I have read in some places distilled water alone is not great and can also destroy the mescaline alkaloids. Curious if anyone can confirm the issue with plain distilled water and if anyone knows if there are any specifics around optimal mineral profiles/ hard/ softness of water for brewing SP tea?

What do you mean by "it does not seem to allow the pull of the mescaline properly from the plants"? What's the result? What's wrong?
I can imagine the mineral ph buffer to be huge and ph to be very high so added acid is not enough to lower ph enough. This might be solved by more acid. Otherwise no idea what might go wrong with your water. How do you brew?

 

[Tigress108]

What do you mean by "it does not seem to allow the pull of the mescaline properly from the plants"? What's the result? What's wrong?
I can imagine the mineral ph buffer to be huge and ph to be very high so added acid is not enough to lower ph enough. This might be solved by more acid. Otherwise no idea what might go wrong with your water. How do you brew?

I tried adjusting with a little extra acid. The medicine seems to be be lighter in color, and less sticky than it normally is. I had medicine look like this two other times in the states and it was less strong and my assumption is less of the mescaline is extracted from the brew. The PH seems to be correct between 5.5 and 6.2 the whole time. I do a standard tea brew, with water, citrus and fresh cactus, I reduce it and strain it three times and have a secondary reduction pot.

 

[Transform]

Hi, welcome!

Is this with brewing from the same batch of cactus? Different cacti can give very different results on virtually all metrics!

Colour and stickiness are not reliable indicators of the mescaline content of brews, but may impact its bioavailability. Secondary effects from the polysaccharides which are mainly resposible for the stickiness might be part of your desired spectrum of action. The same may apply to the coloured compounds.

One more factor to take into account is your altitude. This will affect the boiling point of water - higher altitudes of course corresponding to a lower boiling point - and thus impacting the brewing/ extraction temperature.

Proronged boiling at higher temperature will increase the breakdown of polysaccharides and chlorophyll. The oligo- and monosaccharides formed through boiling may conceivably react with mescaline to form inactive (psychedelically speaking) compounds, as may some of the products of chlorophyll degradation, at least hypothetically speaking, based on the chemistry of the compounds concerned. Practically speaking, these types of reactions would be not be favoured on account of the large amount of water present but irreversible pathways may, nonetheless, exist.

One further point to consider is the citrus fruit you're using, and how they might differ from those you used while in Peru, although their acidity does at least seem sufficient. Did you measure the pH of your Peru brews?

 

[pete666]

Yes, are you sure the cacti is as potent as you expect?

 

[Tigress108]

Hmm, I'd be interested to know how distilled water might destroy the alkaloids. Have you tried rain water?

I am not sure, this is just something I had read in a few different places! I have not tried rain water, in ca where I reside it is not a consistent resource!

 

[Tigress108]

Yes, are you sure the cacti is as potent as you expect?

That's a good question - the cacti in the USA vs the Peruvian types are definitely different and seem overall less potent, USA SP are skinnier and less fleshy green vs. the fat jolly peruvian ones even though they are technically the same type. I almost trippled the amount (in feet) of cactus I normally use for this brew in the US vs. What I use with the peruvian ones when I brew in Peru. I currently have two different pots going, with two separate cactus types, one is just regular SP and the other is Peruvian torch. The owner of the land has brewed the Peruvian torch before and said it was very potent and the other type he has not brewed before.

 

[Tigress108]

Hi, welcome!

Is this with brewing from the same batch of cactus? Different cacti can give very different results on virtually all metrics!

Colour and stickiness are not reliable indicators of the mescaline content of brews, but may impact its bioavailability. Secondary effects from the polysaccharides which are mainly resposible for the stickiness might be part of your desired spectrum of action. The same may apply to the coloured compounds.

One more factor to take into account is your altitude. This will affect the boiling point of water - higher altitudes of course corresponding to a lower boiling point - and thus impacting the brewing/ extraction temperature.

Proronged boiling at higher temperature will increase the breakdown of polysaccharides and chlorophyll. The oligo- and monosaccharides formed through boiling may conceivably react with mescaline to form inactive (psychedelically speaking) compounds, as may some of the products of chlorophyll degradation, at least hypothetically speaking, based on the chemistry of the compounds concerned. Practically speaking, these types of reactions would be not be favoured on account of the large amount of water present but irreversible pathways may, nonetheless, exist.

One further point to consider is the citrus fruit you're using, and how they might differ from those you used while in Peru, although their acidity does at least seem sufficient. Did you measure the pH of your Peru brews?

Thanks for this! Currently at a normal altitude of just above sea level. When I brew in peru I am in the mountains at about 9,000 ft. So, if I understand what you are saying the altitude with its higher boil temps creates a different outcome and potentially more extraction because it is slower and does not degrade the polysaccharides?

Can you please go more into detail about about the polysaccharides, bioavailability and any influence they have on the brew as well as any brewing, water or plant conditions (besides heat) that influence them? I feel there is a direct link to the brew potency and this element that I am missing.

I do measure the PH, but the PH strips I have had access to in the Us surpsingly seem more limited than the peruvian ones. I can usually only tell when I have gotten the PH down to 6 or lower and am shooting for 5.5-6.2. I have an electric more full spectrum Ph meter on the way for more precision.

 

[Transform]

The bioavailability idea was a hypothetical, but there is a certain degree of precedence when we consider, for example, the use of cyclodextrins in drug delivery systems. However, as far as I'm aware, this type of entourage effect is entirely unresearched in mescaline cacti, at least with respect to psychoactivity. It's worth checking up on this though, since there's always the possibility of new developments, and the role of quercetin and other flavanoids with MAO properties remains unclear.

In some sense it's far more likely that your cacti are simply less potent, although I do feel Occam's razor is too blunt here; some polysaccharides are involved in a wide range of bioactivities, and there are a number of trichocereus peptides, such as knottins, of some considerable interest too.

If you were able to construct or otherwise gain access a vacuum chamber to simulate the higher altitude conditions of your previous brews it would be interesting to compare the results. Possibly a sous vide could provide a similarly low and steady brewing temperature, although I do get some sense that the phase change involved in the boiling of water may play some, to me thus far unfathomable, role in the process.

There are various threads which look at tie way growing conditions and post-harvest storage may effect as well as affect potency although it may take me a while to dig them up for you - so, do feel free to have a further look through the cacti-related sections of the forum in the meantime! The single most significant trick for boosting potency seems to be storing the cut stems in the dark for a month or two before brewing.

Hope this has been of some use to you, it's very pleasing to hear from those who grow their own plants for brewing. Illegal harvesting has been placing unacceptable stresses on wild San Pedro populations.

 

[pete666]

That's a good question - the cacti in the USA vs the Peruvian types are definitely different and seem overall less potent, USA SP are skinnier and less fleshy green vs. the fat jolly peruvian ones even though they are technically the same type. I almost trippled the amount (in feet) of cactus I normally use for this brew in the US vs. What I use with the peruvian ones when I brew in Peru. I currently have two different pots going, with two separate cactus types, one is just regular SP and the other is Peruvian torch. The owner of the land has brewed the Peruvian torch before and said it was very potent and the other type he has not brewed before.

Well, I've done tests with many cacti, and the variance is huge. Average sp is very weak, the only difference is bridgesii, but I've seen them weak too, just not that often. Even when working with a specific potent clone, you can get very different results.

If you're not sure about the cacti you're working with, it's very difficult to look for errors elsewhere. If your cacti aren't giving the expected results—especially with a simple method like brewing, where it's hard to make mistakes—the issue is likely with potency.

Seeking out proven clones might help you move forward. Grafting can also speed things up.