Speaking of That Which Cannot Feasibly Be Spoken of, Objectified or Quantified.

[Rising Spirit]

I am essentially an optimistic, would-be mystic. This dream of life has taught me that the right medicine arrives at the perfect time. Not sooner or later than what is ordained by one's own unique destiny. So pardon my inspired thoughts here in, for my heart's intention is born of a deep humility, one blessed by this universal harmony we call life and living it to the fullest.

Hence, what is spiritually ineffible defies any specificity of concrete description. Surely, the nondual state cannot be subjectively interpreted and reinterpreted via reasoning, deduction or dualistic quantification... but from this side of the looking glass, there is much of great value to share with one another. The infinite field transcends description or limitation to relative phenomena, as such an ineffible state of being hasn't any boundary or the minutest iota of division nor differentiation. Thus, no lofty words nor any conceptual paradigmn fully encapsulates what forevermore evades our most sincere contemplation and our deepest seeking/witnessing.


But there is a very, very fine line between not speaking about... or enthusiastically speaking about, what cannot truly be compressed into any fractured, dichotimous paradigmn. Unity dissolves subjectivity. Still, just prior to and immediately post interphase with the nondual field of existential being and immediately post said interphase, there is much to learn and process into one's own soul quintessence. The inside and the outside are revealed to be the same energy & inertia. The eternal balance. The universal harmony.

That being said, does anyone care to relate their own journeys into the infinitum of the immeasurable, Clear Light of the Void? Please do, good people, brave travelers. Admittedly, beyond one's subjective perceptual paradigmn, a vast mysterium lays in resplendence. Even so, just prior to full interphase and immediately following any immersion into the nondual state, encountered by psychonauts, mystics or near-death experiences... potent impressions are cognizable.


As the subjective witness wholly dissolves within the vortexial fulcrum of the indivisible field, itself transcendent of any subjectification, ultimately nothing can be spoken of. Still, what remembrances that linger are priceless. So, please elucidate, good people. And bless us all throughout this summer season. Namaskar.

 

[Voidmatrix]

there is much to learn and process into one's own soul quintessence.

I feel like I suspend myself in these treasured and productive work-spaces. There is so much beautiful and hard verdant work in this liminal state and phase.

One love

 

[northape]

Speaking of the unspeakable with words that can't be worded...

It's a hard task to do, and I'm always met with silence when I try. Yes, I can fabricate stories around it, but they feel fake and self-aggrandizing right away.
Your poetry-like approach is as close as one can get to touching it, imo. You can also point in that direction using a well-developed vocabulary from wisdom traditions.
Yet, it never truly touches that state, and I feel it was intended that way. Our lack of words is the main pointer here. It all starts and ends in Silence.

The question is always the same: Who is seeing it all?

 

[universecannon]

So I could have this entirely wrong, and would love it if yourself and northape could elaborate on this as you two are far more educated on eastern philosophy than myself. But what I find very fascinating is how the ancient traditions seem to differentiate between the brief ego dissolution/absorption into the non-dual "clear light of the void" or "nirvikalpa", and where this sort of cosmic oneness or non-dual state becomes integrated into a physically functional state where a different self emerges (that they interestingly call the "natural state" or Sahaja Samadhi, I think) and you can walk around and still see and feel that you are plugged into this profound state of cosmic oneness.

What I mean is that this seems to imply that there would be a process of increasingly deep integration that progressively bridges the gap between nirvikalpa and sahaja, as they are not two entirely different states, but two steps along a spectrum/journey into the "natural Self" that has an integrated, constant recognition of our divine origin/oneness with the universe

I could be totally off the mark here but the ancient traditions seem to consistently talk about individuals that attained some form or other of more long term access, particularly when engaging with their spiritual techniques at powerful sacred sites such as quartz rich granite mountains, caves, temples, and so on, which they claim drastically aid in pulling the experience into deeper, more integrated coherence/functionality.

I think people like Ramana Maharshi talked about the trap of nirvikalpa, where they describe how it is like diving into the ocean while holding your breath to get a glimpse of the depths vs. learning to grow gills. Or extinguishing a light and merging with the void, vs the light of the cosmic self illuminating the void and universe. I find that second metaphor particularly intriguing as it seems to correlate with the lateralized nature of these experiences where the left hemisphere ego is initially dissolved into an effulgent state of profound oneness, and the right hemisphere then has the opportunity to ramp up into an illuminated awakening of its cosmic sense of self.

Not that I have integrated that awareness into daily life, by any means. I just find it interesting to try and wrap my head around but my education on philosophy is limited. My early experiences with psychedelics were often defined by an increasingly profound sense of oneness with the universe/my friends, and later a more classic ego dissolution into the white light/non-dual state on high doses of DMT. What seemed to happen later with different techniques and lower doses was accessing some form of white light/non-dual awareness while standing and engaging with another person, providing more functional and prolonged glimpses of a cosmic sense of self that was somehow even more baffling, after the ego had been pushed out of the way sufficiently. But even that felt like barely the tip of some big iceberg.

 

[northape]

From what I understand, nirvikalpa is still a state because the "I" comes back. You wake up from it just like from a deep sleep. Sahaja is a state beyond all states, the ground of being, buddha-nature, rigpa, turyatita, the nature of mind, the Self, God. It is our base and needs no cultivation. We see it as a progression only from a personal perspective. When our ego phantom finally dies, sahaja samadhi comes of itself. In a sense, it is always here. So, the path is both effortless and requires effort.

Sri Ramana would most likely nod about a nirvikalpa experience and ask: "Now tell me, who experiences it?"
His method is as simple as it gets, and he always brings our attention back to Being.

Spoiler: Six Kinds of Samadhi

Ch.163 – 03 December 1947

This morning a devotee approached Bhagavan and asked, “Swami, it is said that some people remain in thought free awareness (nirvikalpa samadhi) for quite a long time. Do they take food and other things during this period?” “How can that be?” asked Bhagavan. “When you are asleep, do you ever take food?”

“No. But then, during nirvikalpa samadhi, will the mind be there or not?” asked the questioner.

“Why should it not be there? That which is there in sleep, is there then also. Just see. Now, from noon 12 o’clock to 2 p.m. we shut the doors of the hall and sleep inside. That is also samadhi. A fine type of samadhi indeed! Who knows whether the mind is there or not?” said Bhagavan.

The devotee asked once again, “What about those who are in complete awareness (sahaja samadhi)?”

Bhagavan replied saying, “It is just because of such questions that Vasiṣṭha narrated the story of the ‘Sage and the Hunter’ to Rama to illustrate the fourth or turiya state. In a forest, once a great Muni sat in the lotus posture (padmasana) with his eyes open, but in deep trance. A hunter hit a deer with an arrow, but the deer escaped and ran in front of the Muni into the bush nearby and hid itself. The hunter came in hot pursuit of the deer and not seeing it asked the Muni where it had gone. ‘I do not know, my friend,’ said the Muni. The hunter said, ‘Sir, it ran right in front of you and you had your eyes wide open. How could you have not seen it?’ Finding that he would not leave him in peace unless a proper reply was given, the Muni said, ‘My dear man, we are submerged in the Self; we are always in the Fourth State. We do not have the waking or dream or deep sleep states. Everything is alike to us. These three states are the signs of the ego and we have no ego. Egoism is itself the mind and it is that which is responsible for all the deeds done in this world. That ego (ahankara) left us long ago. Hence it does not matter whether we keep our eyes closed

or open; we are not conscious of what is happening around us. That being so, how can I tell you about your deer?” The hunter thought that it was all sheer nonsense and went his way.

“It may well be asked, ‘If there is no ‘I’ (aham), how did he speak?’ When properly understood, that which occurred as ‘I’ before, becomes our own Nature (swarupa) afterwards. That is called destruction of mind (mano nasa). That thought- free awareness or other signs of awareness are cases of merging (laya) and not of destruction (nasa). So long as there is merging and emerging, it is merely a state of spiritual practice (sadhana),” said Bhagavan.

Taking up the thread of the conversation, another devotee said, “Samadhi is said to be of several kinds such as Savikalpa (absorbed in the thought) and Nirvikalpa (thought- free). Can you tell us about them?” Thereupon, Bhagavan explained thus:

“Yes. Sankara described the six kinds of Samadhi in his Vivekachudamani and his Drigdrisyaviveka. The six are divided into two main categories namely, Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa. The former is divided into two, namely ‘Drisyanuviddha’ and ‘Sabdanuviddha’ and these two are again subdivided as under:

(1) antar drisyanuviddha savikalpa samadhi:
Meditating upon one’s own Self as a witness of desires and other visible attributes of the mind.

(2) antar sabdanuviddha savikalpa samadhi:
To know that the Self is Asanga (contact-free), Swaprakasa (self-luminous), sat-cit-ananda and Advaita (non-dual).

(3) antar nirvikalpa samadhi:
With the exalted feeling of the Self gained as a result of enjoying the ecstasy of the above two states and discarding both of them and remaining motionless like an unflickering light in a windless place.

(4) bahya drisyanuviddha savikalpa samadhi:
As in the case of the Self that is in the heart, to be able to discard with indifference the outer things in the world which have their names and forms and which are visible, and to meditate on the underlying Reality.

(5) bahya sabdanuviddha savikalpa samadhi:
To know and be aware at all times that the Thing which manifests itself as sat-cit-ananda is the universal Brahman.

(6) bahya nirvikalpa samadhi:
With the experience of the above two, to overcome all desires and to remain calm and motionless like the waveless ocean.

“By constantly practising these six kinds of Samadhi, at all times and without a break, one can attain a state of thought-free awareness. Unless one attains that state, the ego will not be completely destroyed. Persons whose ego is destroyed are so detached that even if they appear to see they do not really see; though they appear to eat they do not really eat; though they appear to hear they do not really hear; and though they appear to sleep they do not really sleep. Whatever they do is not really ‘doing’.”

 

[Rising Spirit]

I feel like I suspend myself in these treasured and productive work-spaces. There is so much beautiful and hard verdant work in this liminal state and phase.

One love

I agree wholly. This is particularly true with the total eclipsing of a full-blown whiteout experience. Whether cultures make reference to said unitive immersions or not, it seems more than true that human beings are hardwired to enter into the mystical state. For millennium, mankind has made mention of such exalted levels of heightened conscious-awareness. Be it labeled as: nirvikalpa samahi, divine rapture, nirvana or satori... the reality eludes capture, conceptually. And Amen for that!

 

[Rising Spirit]

Speaking of the unspeakable with words that can't be worded...

It's a hard task to do, and I'm always met with silence when I try. Yes, I can fabricate stories around it, but they feel fake and self-aggrandizing right away.
Your poetry-like approach is as close as one can get to touching it, imo. You can also point in that direction using a well-developed vocabulary from wisdom traditions.
Yet, it never truly touches that state, and I feel it was intended that way. Our lack of words is the main pointer here. It all starts and ends in Silence.

The question is always the same: Who is seeing it all?

Bingo! Only in complete silence is the mind's tenacity of observing the play of dichotomy, effectively slowed and eventually stilled. And just who sees the unseen? Just who watches the watcher, watching the inner witness gazing at the unraveling of the finite self's vision of absolute unification? Tis the old proverbial dog chasing it's own tail, ad infinitum. And Sri Ramana Maharshi has been my very favorite Sat Guru since the early 1980s. He'll be spoken of for centuries to come. Self inquiry is the direct path towards the road of surrender that arrives at complete self-erasure. Ironically, when there is a transparency of witnessing, all that remains is pristine Sunyata. The emptiness which births all fullness, action and inertia... yet, remains unbound throughout. Source, creation and dissolution spiraling forevermore. Aham Brahmasmi. ️️️️️

 

[Rising Spirit]

So I could have this entirely wrong, and would love it if yourself and northape could elaborate on this as you two are far more educated on eastern philosophy than myself. But what I find very fascinating is how the ancient traditions seem to differentiate between the brief ego dissolution/absorption into the non-dual "clear light of the void" or "nirvikalpa", and where this sort of cosmic oneness or non-dual state becomes integrated into a physically functional state where a different self emerges (that they interestingly call the "natural state" or Sahaja Samadhi, I think) and you can walk around and still see and feel that you are plugged into this profound state of cosmic oneness.

What I mean is that this seems to imply that there would be a process of increasingly deep integration that progressively bridges the gap between nirvikalpa and sahaja, as they are not two entirely different states, but two steps along a spectrum/journey into the "natural Self" that has an integrated, constant recognition of our divine origin/oneness with the universe.

This is perhaps one of the greatest challenges advanced seekers find upon their continuing spiritual path. Honestly, I wouldn't really know, as I've never acheived Sahaja samadhi. Nirvikalpa arises and falls away the majority of the time. It's ALWAYS the case with entheogenic travelers, irregardless of the immense impact it has upon our evolving perception.

I could be totally off the mark here but the ancient traditions seem to consistently talk about individuals that attained some form or other of more long term access, particularly when engaging with their spiritual techniques at powerful sacred sites such as quartz rich granite mountains, caves, temples, and so on, which they claim drastically aid in pulling the experience into deeper, more integrated coherence/functionality.

I think people like Ramana Maharshi talked about the trap of nirvikalpa, where they describe how it is like diving into the ocean while holding your breath to get a glimpse of the depths vs. learning to grow gills. Or extinguishing a light and merging with the void, vs the light of the cosmic self illuminating the void and universe. I find that second metaphor particularly intriguing as it seems to correlate with the lateralized nature of these experiences where the left hemisphere ego is initially dissolved into an effulgent state of profound oneness, and the right hemisphere then has the opportunity to ramp up into an illuminated awakening of its cosmic sense of self.

Frankly, your grasp of Yogic metephysics is quite profound and so, coupled with great humility, is very delightful indeed. Most of us merely speculate about a lasting "enlightenment". And I include dozens upon dozens of "Masters, Sat Gurus and self-proclaimed Avatars" in that sweeping assessment. It's so incredibly rare for a mortal entity to reach that level of permanent God-saturation. There may be as few as a handful in every millennium?

Not that I have integrated that awareness into daily life, by any means. I just find it interesting to try and wrap my head around but my education on philosophy is limited. My early experiences with psychedelics were often defined by an increasingly profound sense of oneness with the universe/my friends, and later a more classic ego dissolution into the white light/non-dual state on high doses of DMT. What seemed to happen later with different techniques and lower doses was accessing some form of white light/non-dual awareness while standing and engaging with another person, providing more functional and prolonged glimpses of a cosmic sense of self that was somehow even more baffling, after the ego had been pushed out of the way sufficiently. But even that felt like barely the tip of some big iceberg.

I am in complete agreement with your insightful determinations. I too, have had repeated immersions with N N-DMT and even moreso, with 5-MeO-DMT voyages. And truthfully, despite training in sitting meditation since 1975, my deepest saturations with the Divine stem from psychedelics used with great preparation, forethought and intention. The ensuing absorption and integration are ever my earnest quest. ️️️️️

 

[rkba]

Indeed.

When the world around you creates situations that you feel are coincidences, that's when the undescribable shows itself in ways you can't describe, but can feel. Once you try to describe the situation it feels flat, without the totality it deserves.

Today I danced a pair of new bicycle tires onto the side of a street in a large Metropolitan city in Belgium. They were disposed of and happen to have the right specifications for my bike. A bike that needs new tires.

The description is hollow, without the weight that is felt.

The whole situation is a culmination of experiences that are impossible to describe or re-create with the methods with which we create the stories to convey our experiences.

Even trying to describe it feels inadequate.

I just let the special beauty be and try to acknowledge the event for what it is. Then I move on.

Trying to keep up with the leading butterfly.

 

[Rising Spirit]

From what I understand, nirvikalpa is still a state because the "I" comes back. You wake up from it just like from a deep sleep. Sahaja is a state beyond all states, the ground of being, buddha-nature, rigpa, turyatita, the nature of mind, the Self, God. It is our base and needs no cultivation. We see it as a progression only from a personal perspective. When our ego phantom finally dies, sahaja samadhi comes of itself. In a sense, it is always here. So, the path is both effortless and requires effort.

Sri Ramana would most likely nod about a nirvikalpa experience and ask: "Now tell me, who experiences it?"
His method is as simple as it gets, and he always brings our attention back to Being.

Spoiler: Six Kinds of Samadhi

Ch.163 – 03 December 1947

This morning a devotee approached Bhagavan and asked, “Swami, it is said that some people remain in thought free awareness (nirvikalpa samadhi) for quite a long time. Do they take food and other things during this period?” “How can that be?” asked Bhagavan. “When you are asleep, do you ever take food?”

“No. But then, during nirvikalpa samadhi, will the mind be there or not?” asked the questioner.

“Why should it not be there? That which is there in sleep, is there then also. Just see. Now, from noon 12 o’clock to 2 p.m. we shut the doors of the hall and sleep inside. That is also samadhi. A fine type of samadhi indeed! Who knows whether the mind is there or not?” said Bhagavan.

The devotee asked once again, “What about those who are in complete awareness (sahaja samadhi)?”

Bhagavan replied saying, “It is just because of such questions that Vasiṣṭha narrated the story of the ‘Sage and the Hunter’ to Rama to illustrate the fourth or turiya state. In a forest, once a great Muni sat in the lotus posture (padmasana) with his eyes open, but in deep trance. A hunter hit a deer with an arrow, but the deer escaped and ran in front of the Muni into the bush nearby and hid itself. The hunter came in hot pursuit of the deer and not seeing it asked the Muni where it had gone. ‘I do not know, my friend,’ said the Muni. The hunter said, ‘Sir, it ran right in front of you and you had your eyes wide open. How could you have not seen it?’ Finding that he would not leave him in peace unless a proper reply was given, the Muni said, ‘My dear man, we are submerged in the Self; we are always in the Fourth State. We do not have the waking or dream or deep sleep states. Everything is alike to us. These three states are the signs of the ego and we have no ego. Egoism is itself the mind and it is that which is responsible for all the deeds done in this world. That ego (ahankara) left us long ago. Hence it does not matter whether we keep our eyes closed

or open; we are not conscious of what is happening around us. That being so, how can I tell you about your deer?” The hunter thought that it was all sheer nonsense and went his way.

“It may well be asked, ‘If there is no ‘I’ (aham), how did he speak?’ When properly understood, that which occurred as ‘I’ before, becomes our own Nature (swarupa) afterwards. That is called destruction of mind (mano nasa). That thought- free awareness or other signs of awareness are cases of merging (laya) and not of destruction (nasa). So long as there is merging and emerging, it is merely a state of spiritual practice (sadhana),” said Bhagavan.

Taking up the thread of the conversation, another devotee said, “Samadhi is said to be of several kinds such as Savikalpa (absorbed in the thought) and Nirvikalpa (thought- free). Can you tell us about them?” Thereupon, Bhagavan explained thus:

“Yes. Sankara described the six kinds of Samadhi in his Vivekachudamani and his Drigdrisyaviveka. The six are divided into two main categories namely, Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa. The former is divided into two, namely ‘Drisyanuviddha’ and ‘Sabdanuviddha’ and these two are again subdivided as under:

(1) antar drisyanuviddha savikalpa samadhi:
Meditating upon one’s own Self as a witness of desires and other visible attributes of the mind.

(2) antar sabdanuviddha savikalpa samadhi:
To know that the Self is Asanga (contact-free), Swaprakasa (self-luminous), sat-cit-ananda and Advaita (non-dual).

(3) antar nirvikalpa samadhi:
With the exalted feeling of the Self gained as a result of enjoying the ecstasy of the above two states and discarding both of them and remaining motionless like an unflickering light in a windless place.

(4) bahya drisyanuviddha savikalpa samadhi:
As in the case of the Self that is in the heart, to be able to discard with indifference the outer things in the world which have their names and forms and which are visible, and to meditate on the underlying Reality.

(5) bahya sabdanuviddha savikalpa samadhi:
To know and be aware at all times that the Thing which manifests itself as sat-cit-ananda is the universal Brahman.

(6) bahya nirvikalpa samadhi:
With the experience of the above two, to overcome all desires and to remain calm and motionless like the waveless ocean.

“By constantly practising these six kinds of Samadhi, at all times and without a break, one can attain a state of thought-free awareness. Unless one attains that state, the ego will not be completely destroyed. Persons whose ego is destroyed are so detached that even if they appear to see they do not really see; though they appear to eat they do not really eat; though they appear to hear they do not really hear; and though they appear to sleep they do not really sleep. Whatever they do is not really ‘doing’.”

Just beautiful. Hari Om Tat Sat