Steriods,hgh etc?

[SHroomtroll]

Hello guys iam opening this thread not because im interested in doing this stuff per se but to get some educated opinions on how manipulating ones hormones can change your being.

I mean im somewhat educated on the effects and side effects of different synthetic hormones, but im mostly wondering what effect on ones ego it could have by jacking up the test etc can do.


To add im mostly interested in doing stuff like this in maybe 10 years or so when im naturally gonna get weaker and slower since i would like to keep up my heavy weight lifting and martial arts training on the same level as iam doing now in my twenties.


So im looking more for philosophical input here more than hard facts, i know the nexus is not a roid page and im not looking for any roid info since im already somewhat informed.

I wanna hear more of the spirutual change this stuff can have on a person.

 

[christian]

Too many side effects, can lead to mood swings, depression, cancer, shrinkage of testicles, bitches tit's, acne, and horrid boils.

Also, illegal and expensive.

Isn't that offputting enough?

Also, hopefully when you're older you'll be more mature and realise that you shouldn't be trying to 'modify' yourself, and to impress 'who'? Maturity and growing up is about just being happy with who you are, and stuff media and bodybuilding nonsense. Your martial arts or exercising will never in any way be any match for the brilliance of your inner self.

 

[soulfood]

I'm agreeing with Christian here.

Surely if you're that passionate about what you're doing, your training alone will keep you in better shape than most. Unless you have some unhealthy desire with being the best you should realise that by having athletic habits you're already maintaining your peak better than most of the population of this planet.

Then there's my assumption you'll also still be using psychedelics? Could you imagine how that would feel with a modified set? I know the majority of symptoms Christian listed above mainly indicate heavy use, but certainly the emotional changes that could be more subtle would be a lot more hassle than they are worth.

 

[SHroomtroll]

Well this is why im asking, no need to be judgemental and call me names and stuff now.

And just like all drugs steroids can be used and abused, seriously alot of older people are getting hormone replacement therapy in small doses without all the side effects people like body builders get because they abuse the stuff and use very high doses year around etc.

Seriously i didnt want this discussion at all since i know some steroids esp HGH can be used with very little side effects if none if one use medical doses and not "body builder" doses .


Christian i dont understand why you need to be judgemental about this stuff? noone is forcing you to try to be the best you can and master an art or get strong.

Just because its a unhealthy habit or ideal in your eyes doesnt make it true for me or anyone really.


I dont do body builöding or lift weights to look good or impress anyone, i do it because i love to defy gravity and be as strong and as fit as i can without injuries, actually the way i lift prevents my body from breaking in my day to day life.


And dont we all modify ourself everytime we eat anything or get a new experience in life, i mean the judgemental tone you guys have right now sounds exactly like the stuff i here everyday about psychedelic drug use, you only know about the negative stuff since you never had any own experience with it.


And no ive never done any steoroids or other performance enhancing drugs iam just trying to learn about it since we now have the technology to stay younger with these things and in 10 or 15year when i might try it think most side effects will be worked out.

 

[universecannon]

relax, no one was calling you names brother. you asked for honest input, and thats what you got. It was good advice IMO. I think steroids are a bad idea. I've seen first hand what they can do to peoples bodies and minds

i think you should be analyzing why it is you want to do this in the first place

 

[christian]

Seriously i didnt want this discussion at all since i know some steroids esp HGH can be used with very little side effects if none if one use medical doses and not "body builder" doses.

I'm sorry if i sounded condascending shroomtroll, but steroids should only be used in emergency situation where there is no easy option for muscle bulking, such as in the old or ill, and under medical supervision.

If you are healthy then you have no need of them and i cannot understand why you would need to take them when hard training can get you there safer and also more healthily, as well as for your own achievement. I would never even bother with them because i am happy with myself, and i will not put myself in danger to attempt to impress other sad people who think that such individuals should in some way be respected simply because martial arts and strenuous exercise is supposed to be 'cool' according to the media.

HGH may seem safer, but only when used correctly, but this still has many risks including bone growth, yuk! Simply put, unless you suffer from some sort of hormonal deficiency then you are harming yourself and subjecting yourself to a negative behaviour pattern you simply do not need. When you get older you will not be like a youngster, neither will you be bothered because you will have matured, and lifting weights and 'keeping strength' may not be as important as you accept your natural changes with dignity.

Personally, i prefer to be eat and exercise as naturally as possible, but that's me. Sorry if i was of little help, but unless you're a sports cheat who can get rich quick, why risk your health for a bit of 'questionable' fake strength, or bigger bicep measurement? :?:

 

[SHroomtroll]

Very good points and i do agree with them, like i said im not looking for a shortcut and when the time comes i might accept my aging and just let nature have its course.


And like i said i dont lift weights to be big or buff, i started lifting for athletic purposes ie helping my brazilian jiu jitsu game and to stay healthy for my sport.

All i want to do is keep rolling and in 10years i still want to be able to train hard and stay competetive on the mats with the young studs.

If hgh will make my body be able to recover at a similar rateas nowadays i might consider it when the time comes,

 

[embracethevoid]

Although I would almost definitely never take most steroids due to their side effects, I do believe your arguments are extremely uninformed christian.

You clearly do not really seem to have much of an idea how the bodybuilding world works judging by how you mention "fake strength". I'm going to hold back... ok no I'm not. Bro, do you even lift?


Of course the set of psychedelically initiated lifters is admittedly going to be a small set of persons.

But let's deconstruct a few things -

"Steroids should only be used in emergency situation where there is no easy option for muscle bulking, such as in the old or ill, and under medical supervision."


Um...

"Psychedelics should only be used in emergency situation where there is no easy option for happiness, such as in the anhedonic or depressed, and under medical supervision."

Do you see how ridiculous that statement sounds? Likewise, the first statement is that ridiculous to a person who lifts.


It's easy to look down from your "I'm spiritual" high horse but realise that you are just repeating the very same crime of arrogant ignorance that brainwashed folks do in turn to hallucinogen users. You can't have it both ways, either be open minded towards all things or don't bother holding such a pretence.


All that meditating on the inner self means jack shit in a survival situation. OK you can meditate all you want. What happens when someone feels to take your possessions from you, or wants to rape your wife & children in front of your face, do you think you can meditate your way out of a gritty situation like that? What happens when there's a fire in your building and you need to lift a heavy ass girder out of the way of your exit?

Being hyper-spiritual and neglecting your body is not spiritual at all, it is imbalance. The middle way is accepting of all the good fruits of life and that includes building muscle and reaching maximal health. If some people wish to accelerate that using chemical assistance, what is it to you to look down on them but another form of ego?

 

[soulfood]

i mean the judgemental tone you guys have right now sounds exactly like the stuff i here everyday about psychedelic drug use, you only know about the negative stuff since you never had any own experience with it.

Apologies,

My intention was not to be judgemental and is probably more just a reflection of myself. I've recently had doctors prescribe a variety of things unrelated here and was even objectional to those even under medical advice.

Just sharing what I could.

 

[christian]

You clearly do not really seem to have much of an idea how the bodybuilding world works judging by how you mention "fake strength". I'm going to hold back... ok no I'm not. Bro, do you even lift?

Yes embrace, i do lift weights, but i do it naturally. I enjoy working out with my own strength, and not any artificial 'fake' enhanced strength. Obviously the risks are not worthwhile for how long they last. A good training session alone stresses the body out enough without adding toxic material to it. It's just nuts to think that adding hormones is gonna be a good thing. It's fake because it's cheating. why not wear some fake plastic muscles or have some silicon implants?

I train for the 'feel good' factor, not for trying to be a bodybuilder. I don't think it's healthy to think that a toned muscular body is necessarily a healthy one, unless natural training has been done. At the end of the day, muscles or not, how happy you are inside is all that counts. I feel no need to 'impress' others. Who cares?!

Of course i also like to train really hard at times, but i do it for my own spiritual purposes. I don't feel the need to become a black belt in martial arts, life will provide me with what i need as i need it, i don't live in fear that i must train hard 'just in case'. Have some inner faith my son. Your brilliant essence is your diamond. Your body might be strong, but it shouldn't be stiff and rigid.

( beware of 'mens fitness magazines' and hollywood! :lol: )

 

[universecannon]

Although I would almost definitely never take most steroids due to their side effects, I do believe your arguments are extremely uninformed christian.

You clearly do not really seem to have much of an idea how the bodybuilding world works judging by how you mention "fake strength". I'm going to hold back... ok no I'm not. Bro, do you even lift?


Of course the set of psychedelically initiated lifters is admittedly going to be a small set of persons.

But let's deconstruct a few things -

"Steroids should only be used in emergency situation where there is no easy option for muscle bulking, such as in the old or ill, and under medical supervision."


Um...

"Psychedelics should only be used in emergency situation where there is no easy option for happiness, such as in the anhedonic or depressed, and under medical supervision."

Do you see how ridiculous that statement sounds? Likewise, the first statement is that ridiculous to a person who lifts.


It's easy to look down from your "I'm spiritual" high horse but realise that you are just repeating the very same crime of arrogant ignorance that brainwashed folks do in turn to hallucinogen users. You can't have it both ways, either be open minded towards all things or don't bother holding such a pretence.


All that meditating on the inner self means jack shit in a survival situation. OK you can meditate all you want. What happens when someone feels to take your possessions from you, or wants to rape your wife & children in front of your face, do you think you can meditate your way out of a gritty situation like that? What happens when there's a fire in your building and you need to lift a heavy ass girder out of the way of your exit?

Being hyper-spiritual and neglecting your body is not spiritual at all, it is imbalance. The middle way is accepting of all the good fruits of life and that includes building muscle and reaching maximal health. If some people wish to accelerate that using chemical assistance, what is it to you to look down on them but another form of ego?

:thumb_dow

this post just way out of line and non-sensical in so many ways

and comparing psychedelics to steroids is just ridiculous. sorry, but they are two completely different things

 

[jamie]

dude you are going to royally screw yourself up if you start taking synthetic hormones. You should not need hormone therapy in your 30's.

Are you really at the point where you need hormone replacement therapy in 10 years? People who take steroids to build muscle because they work out are rediculous. The body will build the level of muscle tone that is requires for the build of that body. Throwing that out of balance is just asking for disease.

Lots of people do this and usually have no understanding of how hormones work in the body. If you want cancer it sounds like a good way to go. What happens when all those hormones rapidly break down through aromatization and de-methylation? Most people dont even know what that means in referance to hormones in the body.

There are other ways to hold natural hormone levels, like testosterone in place and stop them from converting in the body into estogens etc. This is one of the big problems people have and prob why the need to go take steroids. Diet plays a large role here.

Find herbs and foods to take that are aromatase inhibators and methyl donars..eat them daily and you will help your body naturally sustain higher levels of testosterone and other hormones instead of them breaking down into other things you dont want floating around the body.

If you really need a hormone boost its better to take deer antlers I think..but still you have to make sure the high levels of hormones are not going to be breaking down in the body right after you take it. Usually this is for people in andropause or menopause. I doubt it is good for people in their 30's to need this just so they can do more martial arts. My master was like 50 and he was ripped and could kick anyones ass and he never took steroids.

 

[embracethevoid]

You clearly do not really seem to have much of an idea how the bodybuilding world works judging by how you mention "fake strength". I'm going to hold back... ok no I'm not. Bro, do you even lift?

Yes embrace, i do lift weights, but i do it naturally. I enjoy working out with my own strength, and not any artificial 'fake' enhanced strength. Obviously the risks are not worthwhile for how long they last. A good training session alone stresses the body out enough without adding toxic material to it. It's just nuts to think that adding hormones is gonna be a good thing. It's fake because it's cheating. why not wear some fake plastic muscles or have some silicon implants?

I train for the 'feel good' factor, not for trying to be a bodybuilder. I don't think it's healthy to think that a toned muscular body is necessarily a healthy one, unless natural training has been done. At the end of the day, muscles or not, how happy you are inside is all that counts. I feel no need to 'impress' others. Who cares?!

Of course i also like to train really hard at times, but i do it for my own spiritual purposes. I don't feel the need to become a black belt in martial arts, life will provide me with what i need as i need it, i don't live in fear that i must train hard 'just in case'. Have some inner faith my son. Your brilliant essence is your diamond. Your body might be strong, but it shouldn't be stiff and rigid.

( beware of 'mens fitness magazines' and hollywood! :lol: )

I do share the very same perspective on lifting naturally with no artificial enhancement. That said, if others want to do it then so what?

Plastic silicone muscles or breast implants do not help you lift real weight, you knew that already.

Then there's another myth: that steroids are necessary only to be huge. You'll be surprised how common they are. People who could pass for natural, even guys who don't even look like they've seen a barbell. They're absolutely needed to push a body past natural limit but yes, people use them for less than that too.

Then who says it's to impress others? These are your egoic projections. Some people legitimately want to just get jacked to fuck purely for themselves. I don't care much for golf but I'm not going to stop people from playing it. What's to stop someone lifting heavy and doing say, yoga? Nothing, that's what. Your post is riddled with false dilemmas. Either spiritual ascended illuminated enlightened being OR dull caveman meathead. Either big and unhealthy OR lean and healthy. Doesn't work like that.


Now you can keep patronising people but let's be clear: we're on the same damn forum, we have taken near enough the same damn substances. So let's drop this pretence of being "more spiritual", eh? Oh, if only I was more in touch with my inner self, I'd support your idea of prohibiting the possession of substances for people to put into their own bodies. I guess that worked great for DMT, eh?
You do not know my spiritual path, you have no idea how "in touch with my inner self" I am or not, so let's refrain from those personalisms. You're not privy to any more or less than I am.

Men's Fitness? Hollywood? I hope you understand that reductio ad absurdatum when used in a condescending fashion inevitably says far more about the limitations of the knowledge of that person than the object it is directed at. I have never even seen "Men's Fitness" and I don't watch movies. It's like calling an ayahuasca user a lazy pothead.


It's easy to say "Life will provide me with what I need" when you perhaps live in an air conditioned 1st world fantasy land but not everybody on this planet does (for the record, I do, for now). For some people the aforementioned situations are a very stark reality. It's not living in fear: it's living prepared. When shit hits the fan, you're either going to starve to death or go to that guy who conveniently has 500 gallons of water in an underground reservoir and a couple metric tons of canned food. Suddenly that guy doesn't seem so insecure about himself, does he?


Also FYI steroids do not disrupt endocrine systems beyond a certain age (puberty). Not only that but all those other things like aromatisation and whatnot already have follow up drugs to target them. A person could, if they wish, run a cycle and within 3 months be right back to good standing endocrine system wise yet have a shitload of muscle to go with it. It's alluring but there are far better reasons not to do it beyond "it's cheating man".



But either way, the entire condescending nature of this thread is absurd, absurd because the people on this forum should know how hypocritical it is to look down on something that you do not understand, to say people should and should not do X or Y with their own bodies, to judge people as this or that when you do not even have a remote clue as to the ins and outs of this or that to form an accurate judgement.

It is true however that juicing may reduce longevity. But to some people, that's fine. Not everyone wants to be a super duper enlightened spiritual being. Some people want to get jacked. Let them be. Much talk about spirituality. "I dissolved into an infinite ocean of bliss and love and saw that we should accept all beings for who they are... also, steroid users suck".

 

[christian]

Now you can keep patronising people but let's be clear: we're on the same damn forum

Embrace,

You're response indicates that you're taking my post far too seriously. Sure, if people wanna take shit, then they can. BUT, when they ask for advice, i like to offer my own bit of assistence even if it may not ring true to them. I simply had to speak out.

I'm fully aware that people take them to be big/slim/etc, i'm not dumb, but the Nexus is a sensible forum, and taking roids isn't sensible. Sorry, but it's just unhealthy to take drugs to enhance strength that are known to have bad side effects, and are potentially addictive.

Also, it sounds damned stupid to use roids if you're not gonna build up. Why take stupid expensive risks for nothing to show for it except 'poundage going up' at the gym? What's important about artificially enhanced strength gains. How can cheating feel good? I like to think that authenticity is an important part of the Nexus?

What's happened to honest hard training?

 

[universecannon]

embrace, jesus man, will you just relax? your post is filled with anger fueled illusory projections. this is getting ridiculous. someone asked for advice, and thats what they got. get over it

 

[jamie]

I dont know why you chose to make this an arguement about peoples spitiruality Embrace, but it is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. You are way too emotional here and your responces are more accusing than they are helpful. If this discussion cant remain on topic I am going to have to clean up or remove some of the posts becasue this whole back and forth thing about being spiritual is rediculous.

There are obvious reasons to be alarmed with people ingesting synthetic hormones in their 30's. Especially when many people that do this do not have an adequate understanding of how hormones work and are metabolized in the body under certian circumstances. If you cant handle this level of discussion and obvious need for caution than you are welcome to just not post.

You are drawing irrelevant comparisons between things like taking a psychedelic and taking bio-identical hormone therapy. These are not the same things at all. How spiritual a person is has nothing to do with any of this.

People take bio-identical hormones becasue they require hormone replacement therapy. Most people who are eating synthetic hormones just to build more muscle mass when they work out(especially in their 20's or 30's) likely do not need hormone replacement therapy. It looks weird when people are building muscle mass that is out of proportion for their build.

Many people here take hormones..lots of people supplement melatonin..but is that really the same thing we are taking about here? Not really.

 

[christian]

Embrace, if i could use Jamies quote:

I dont know why you chose to make this an arguement about peoples spitiruality Embrace, but it is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. You are way too emotional here and your responces are more accusing than they are helpful.

If i can say just one thing here, i'd like to comment on a 'spiritual' aspect. IMO, one thing that stands out in those interested in Spirituality is that they have a desire to be true to themselves, accept themselves and thus inspire others to do the same. Wether they meditate or whatnot.

However, taking steroids goes against this grain. Unless it's for medical treatment, you are trying to modify yourself unnaturally. You are dishonest with being your true self. That is the issue that needs reflection. A life built upon a lie is highly questionable IMO, whatever beliefs you aspire to.

In contrast to this, it's the general belief that western men who consume entheogens or meditate, partake in other 'spiritual' practices,etc, are attempting to find the 'truth' about their existence in this life.Ie, dissolve negative conditioning and focus on what's really important in life, et al.

Of course, Shroomtroll can choose to do what he likes, it is up to him, but he is asking a question because he seems unsure. I think there are no wrongs in life, just deviations from our 'path'. Based on scientific evidence, taking steroids for the wrong reasons can be a detriment to ones path and thus also be a negative inspiration unto others.

Peace!

 

[SHroomtroll]

Damn didnt know this was such a emotionally loaded topic around here!

This is almost worse than when i made the acid thread on T-nation


Anyway i think yall need to calm down abit and look again at what i wrote in the op, cause this kind of crap is just what i didnt want to start, this fear mongering stuff sounds like alot of the anti drug stuff i hear at alot of places about our beloved psychedleics.

Steroids just like any drugs are medicines that can be used or abused and the side effects are known but also very exagerated like alot of propaganda.

I know what harm steroid abuse can cause like i said in the op and i dont need to hear anymore about it.

Im not gonna do roids to get big or strong or to impress anyone, i will probably never do steroids at all actually.

And if i ever think about doing them it will be as a medicine, to help my old ass body to heal from many years of high level sports.

Seriosly how hard is that to grasp? i think alot of you guys are naive about how common these things are in sports, i mean untill just a few years ago there were no standard tests to test for HGH!!

This is pretty alarming since i know first hand that alot of elite athletes in most sports were on the hgh juice, not to get big,byff or even to enhance performance, but mostly to recover better so they can train more and get better at their sport.

Remember that its not cheating if everyone is doing it.

Nowadays most athletes pay big bucks for designer steroids that are tailor made for their personal hormone and are impossible to detect, cause the testing will always be 5years behind, just like the drug laws and the rc market.


If you look it up you will also find out that before they banned these things every single athelte in the US olympic team was on teh juice as well.


But whatever dudes im not here to mrket these things, i dont thing most people using gear should be cause most people are just messing their hormones up at young age for stupid reasons trying to look like arnold or to lift insane amounts of weights quicker than they should be.

But i dont see anything wrong with someone in their late 30´s wanting to keep up sports at a high level doing this stuff, as long as they dont compete with an unfair advantage or whatever, cause some of us actually train for a higher goal than just "stayin in shape"

And if you think that is imature or cheatin then feel free to think that i dont care, i just wanted a discussion about the topic.

 

[christian]

Remember that its not cheating if everyone is doing it.

Nonsense!

When you cheat, you are cheating yourself, lying to yourself.

Forget worrying about others, hell, let them do whatever folly they wish. Look after your own path, as they look after theirs. You have to live this life, and if you wanna take risks you choose to do so, but it's YOUR choice, and you have had me and others say that steroids used in the manner you spoke of, is ABUSE.

Natural entheogens are a different kettle of fish, and generally have a proven safety record.

Steroids do not. Neither does HGH, (unless used 'under medical supervision' for important reasons.) Of which bodybuilding, etc, is NOT.

 

[SHroomtroll]

Remember that its not cheating if everyone is doing it.

Nonsense!

When you cheat, you are cheating yourself, lying to yourself.

Forget worrying about others, hell, let them do whatever folly they wish. Look after your own path, as they look after theirs. You have to live this life, and if you wanna take risks you choose to do so, but it's YOUR choice, and you have had me and others say that steroids used in the manner you spoke of, is ABUSE.

Natural entheogens are a different kettle of fish, and generally have a proven safety record.

Steroids do not. Neither does HGH, (unless used 'under medical supervision' for important reasons.) Of which bodybuilding, etc, is NOT.

May i ask what makes any kind of authority in this subject?

As far i as i know almost anyone who goes to the right doctor and is over 35 can get TRT nowadays, its basicly the same as getting a medical marijuana card.

So where does the line get drawn? cause i know alot of people who get their juice from a legit doctor while they might not really need it.