Stoned Apes? - The Confusion of Terence Pt. 2

[Global]

I know that many of us nexians have some pretty outlandish theories regarding psychedelics that probably have nothing to do with Terrence McKenna. The theories are outlandish in that they stray far from the currently accepted paradigm, yet to you, seem to contain the utmost validity based on your observations. Now imagine you're in Terrence's position a while back, and you have the rare opportunity to try and get your message heard by as many as possible who will listen to it. Bear in mind that you believe in some of your theories in a more concrete way, whilst other of your theories are meant more as metaphors. Clearly this stoned ape theory wasn't a metaphor, but Terrence also gets bashed for his whole machine elves idea (even though he himself admits that they are most likely a reflection of himself!). People read or hear something though and take it to an extreme (same as with the whole pineal thing with Strassman). People hear something, and that's it. It doesn't go much further than that. They hear elves, close the book or walk away from the computer and don't bother applying much true critical thinking to it. Terrence isn't to blame...you are :shock: [whoever you are :roll: ]

 

[christian]

I really liked them hilarious Terence Mckenna U tube videos. Such as this picture of a cute little mushroom, on a log, and out comes this voice saying " catalysts for change, to say what has never been said, to see what has never been seen , to...."- absolutely hilarious!!

- Basically i extract from this what makes sense , and disregarded the rest that doesn't make sense. I think this is the case with all ideas that thinking people come up with. Their job is to think up the ideas, get them out there. It's our job to think about them ourselves, and navigate these seas of information. And to sort the wheat from the chaff.

-Terence did his duty expressing his psychadelic thoughts, and never told us to choose to believe him exclusively. He just said what he had to say, like every other man with an expressive potential.8)

 

[Global]

-Terence did his duty expressing his psychadelic thoughts, and never told us to choose to believe him exclusively. He just said what he had to say, like every other man with an expressive potential.8)

Very good point

 

[Sadhaka]

What I liked about Terrence McKenna is that he was a very intelligent guy with courage to say and write things that no one else would dare to publish. He was charismatic for sure! But when I have encountered real spirituality without drugs I dropped the idea of psychedelics shaping our consciousness. I know that psychedelics are very powerful but come on... do you really believe that higher ideals, conscience, religion, meditation and all that comes from the mushroom vision? There are more then enough people how have never taken any drug and they are way more spiritual then us.

Look, this divinity, visions and all that are not produced by psychedelics, those things are catalysed by them. It's all in you, really. I've seen lots of people taking psychedelics that had no clue about consciousness. I've even see people behaving in an mentally-ill manner and even forgetting what they were doing while under influence. Don't give too much credit to substances. It's all in you and drugs are only the easiest way to take it all to the surface.

McKenna is cool and I like him very much but his views are... well... detached from reality. Psychedelic sci-fi, that's all. DMT in pineal gland? As far as I can tell, there is no proof that any DMT actually resides in our brain. Rick Strassman? Even Dale Pendell was VERY sceptical about his theories. Read Pendell's theory about "Plant Wars". Comment on that. It was a blow to my mind and it was way better then McKenna's... why? Because Pendell didn't even tried to appeal to our folk-science. He appealed to a different perspective - a perspective from the point of view of the plants. What happens when we see humans as mere vessels of war between different species of plants? Waging wars, building plantations and burning crops (like fields of marijuana in war on drugs!) for the success of this or that plant?

 

[universecannon]

What I liked about Terrence McKenna is that he was a very intelligent guy with courage to say and write things that no one else would dare to publish. He was charismatic for sure! But when I have encountered real spirituality without drugs I dropped the idea of psychedelics shaping our consciousness. I know that psychedelics are very powerful but come on... do you really believe that higher ideals, conscience, religion, meditation and all that comes from the mushroom vision? There are more then enough people how have never taken any drug and they are way more spiritual then us.

Look, this divinity, visions and all that are not produced by psychedelics, those things are catalysed by them. It's all in you, really. I've seen lots of people taking psychedelics that had no clue about consciousness. I've even see people behaving in an mentally-ill manner and even forgetting what they were doing while under influence. Don't give too much credit to substances. It's all in you and drugs are only the easiest way to take it all to the surface.

McKenna is cool and I like him very much but his views are... well... detached from reality. Psychedelic sci-fi, that's all. DMT in pineal gland? As far as I can tell, there is no proof that any DMT actually resides in our brain. Rick Strassman? Even Dale Pendell was VERY sceptical about his theories. Read Pendell's theory about "Plant Wars". Comment on that. It was a blow to my mind and it was way better then McKenna's... why? Because Pendell didn't even tried to appeal to our folk-science. He appealed to a different perspective - a perspective from the point of view of the plants. What happens when we see humans as mere vessels of war between different species of plants? Waging wars, building plantations and burning crops (like fields of marijuana in war on drugs!) for the success of this or that plant?

many religions, meditations, mudras, whatever- stem from psychedelic use..and just about all of this stuff you can trace back to shamanism, "the first religion" (although its really nothing like a religion). So it doesn't "all come from a mushroom", but once you do the research you can't deny the massive impact psychedelics, and drugs in general, have had on shaping the unfolding of our cultures and selves.

like most here, if i've learned anything from psychedelics, and life, its that WE DON'T KNOW DIDILY SQUAT.. and coming to such conclusions, especially in regards to consciousness and how it operates while these plant/human neurotransmitters are flowing in, is silly at best, and detrimental to progress and growth at worst...and the cultural stigmas that say what we experience on psychedelics is somehow not valid or something is getting old. We literally need them to survive. They are in all the food you eat. They are in your brain and body right now. Thats right! Chemicals baby! your on drugs all the time! :shock: Even when you had your sober spiritual experience, which i'm not discrediting in any way ...i've had many myself..and besides, the fact that reality itself can be an immensely spiritual experience doesn't mean there is no validity in psychedelics! Like Huxley said, they just turn the reducing valve down a bit.

Besides the huge potential for medical use these thing, like many spiritual techniques, also tear down our nervous systems programmed filters..something the people in the world are in dire need of if its going to wake up from its daze before we fuck everything up for ourselves and the planet. This is a big part of what mckenna said as well. He said many relevant things like this that aren't psi-fi at all (although i think its obvious the world gets more and more psy-fi everyday

"There are more then enough people how have never taken any drug and they are way more spiritual then us."

and that makes no sense :?

 

[Sadhaka]

many religions, meditations, mudras, whatever- stem from psychedelic use..and just about all of this stuff you can trace back to shamanism, "the first religion" (although its really nothing like a religion). So it doesn't "all come from a mushroom", but once you do the research you can't deny the massive impact psychedelics, and drugs in general, have had on shaping the unfolding of our cultures and selves.

I've done massive researches and I completely deny that psychoactive substances had sparked mysticism in mankind. Such ideas can only be breed by those who had not been fortunate enough to be blessed with experiences that are completely unrelated to psychoactives or subjectivity.

You don't have to take my point but without solid evidence I would be far more moderate with statements then you. What are you doing is fierce propaganda not dissimilar to any religious fanaticism.

 

[christian]

Sadhaka, i'm afraid i'll have to disagree with you. Someone i know whos taken large doses of mushrooms in the past has seen colourful buddha images, as well as attaining a powerful religious experience. He explained that the visuals actually had similarities to the stained glass windows in churches. He also had some incredible dreams and saw strange shapes that he remembers on temples, buildings. He also saw demonic figures, like gargoyles.

-Now he is convinced that the design of the catholic church is based heavily on the visuals produced by strong magic mushroom visuals.HE IS ALSO SURE THAT THIS APPLIES TO AZTEC TEMPLES,EGYPTIAN IMAGES,ETC.( where local entheogens were used). In other words , the entheogen that those peoples took shaped their beliefs strongly, as well as their temples designworks,etc.

-Surely you are joking,Sadhaka, when you say that psychadelics have little to do with spirituality??- You sound to me like someone who has never had ANY experience at all, that meditates or does yoga instead-A very long winded way to get to these mind states...:?

-Sadhaka, you also mention about some people acting out like they are mentally ill,etc..You are starting to sound like an American anti drugs commercial!..It's a well known fact that psychadelic drugs when taken in a safe manner promote healing and spiritual awareness, as opposed to creating mental illness. Although closed minded people may struggle with the experience of having their ego's dissolved and minds de-conditioned to return to their original core selves, and these people may struggle with such an experience. This is in direct proportion to just how dis connected they were from their true selves in the first place -not mental illness!!

-Whilst it's perfectly possible to be a spiritual person without entheogens, remember that all those receptor sites in your brain are there for a reason. Why do you think we have them, Why do you think the government don't want us to take psychadelics...So you would rather try and become spiritual just by reading books, learning meditation from someone else, etc...(but remember that even meditation or yoga is a human invention like any religion)-ok.But it's a long road my friend, and you'll struggle to see the light without entheogens, because there's too much junk going about in the modern world, and you need to be able to detox from this distraction-hence the idea of meditating in a cave in the Himilayas,etc.....

-Some people can, however, simply take a plant entheogen and be transported to the pure truth in minutes to hours - a state extremely difficult to reach after years of STRICT yoga and meditation practice. I dunno, it sounds like you took regular street drugs, and didn't properly get to grips with real entheogens. Please accept my aplologies if i am wrong, but it doesn't sound so.....:roll:

 

[Global]

many religions, meditations, mudras, whatever- stem from psychedelic use..and just about all of this stuff you can trace back to shamanism, "the first religion" (although its really nothing like a religion). So it doesn't "all come from a mushroom", but once you do the research you can't deny the massive impact psychedelics, and drugs in general, have had on shaping the unfolding of our cultures and selves.

You can also choose to take the mushroom for entheogens in general. Perhaps it wasn't the mushroom that spawned religion, but any number of entheogens (perhaps one that is extinct or the knowledge of which is lost in time).

Now he is convinced that the design of the catholic church is based heavily on the visuals produced by strong magic mushroom visuals.HE IS ALSO SURE THAT THIS APPLIES TO AZTEC TEMPLES,EGYPTIAN IMAGES,ETC.( where local entheogens were used). In other words , the entheogen that those peoples took shaped their beliefs strongly, as well as their temples designworks,etc.

I have seen countless numbers of egyptian imagery throughout my DMT experiences in all their glorious accurate-looking details as well as numerous other archetypal figures, and while an obvious possibility could be that these higher realms of consciousness sought out by the Egyptians could have been what influenced them in the first place to design their culture around such imagery, that's only one possibility. The idea that psychedelics allow you to tap into the collective unconscious is another, and IMO just as valid possibility.

 

[christian]

The point i was simply trying to make was that it is very hard to be a "spiritual person" without altering your state of consciousness. There are many ways for man to alter his consciousness. This can be drummingn, meditation, extreme exercise, dansing, swirling, etc-as well as using an entheogen.

- The main point of doing this is to de-condition the mind as best as possible in order that we may revert to our core selves, and re connect with the universal energy instead of being connected via our daily routine lives which are major obstacles to true unimpeded insights.

-Clearly psychadelics are a powerful tool for self exploration, and allow incredible insights that cannot be achieved to the degree by the other ways alone. 8)

 

[universecannon]

many religions, meditations, mudras, whatever- stem from psychedelic use..and just about all of this stuff you can trace back to shamanism, "the first religion" (although its really nothing like a religion). So it doesn't "all come from a mushroom", but once you do the research you can't deny the massive impact psychedelics, and drugs in general, have had on shaping the unfolding of our cultures and selves.

I've done massive researches and I completely deny that psychoactive substances had sparked mysticism in mankind.

Read what you quoted from me..

i never said they were the thing that sparked mysticism in mankind (although they might have been, we don't know- hence why i said coming to conclusions seems dumb)..notice the keyword in the first sentence being "many"...Its hard to believe you've done massive research when you deny any notion about psychedelics and drugs playing a large role in shaping society, since this seems blatantly obvious and is all around us.

Not sure why you labelled what i said as "fierce propaganda not dissimilar to any religious fanaticism"..i remain in a state of probabilities and try to not really believe anything actually..or at least, i like to believe i do . I feel that your whole 'they are way more spiritual than us and therefore psychedelic use is invalid' attitude is more akin to that if anything