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Strange pulls... {pics}

Migrated topic.
Du57mi73 said:
jbark said:
cyb said:
Throw a pile of Salt in the mix JB...you could get lucky on the next pull.:thumb_up:
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A pile was thrown in early on. Will more salt basify more of the DMT for subsequent pulls? I have never heard of this, but I'll try it!

thanks!

JBArk
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Salt will not basify anything. Salt just makes it so that your dmt is more attracted to the naptha.
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I guess what I meant was the salt will facilitate more freebasing of the DMT, rendering it more available to the NPS. That is likely wrong though - I am no chemist and my understanding of these things is rudimentary at best. Salt helps with emulsions, so I assumed it would have some effect on polarising the aqueous solution...and aiding the base to convert the salted DMT to freebase... (?)

So how much of the above is wrong? :)

JBArk
 
...so i guess my error was using the phrase "will basify the DMT" to mean will facilitate the conversion of the DMT salt to freebase DMT? I guess I know more than i think I do, which is rare. Usually it's the other way around. 8)

JBArk
 
jbark said:
...so i guess my error was using the phrase "will basify the DMT" to mean will facilitate the conversion of the DMT salt to freebase DMT?
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The raising of the pH value towards the alkaline end of the spectrum (basing) handles the switch from salts to freebase.
The Salt (NaCl) potentiates the ionic strength of the solution causing the spice molecules to clump together and migrate to the solvent in greater volume.

Even though you have pulled a bunch already...adding more salt to the mix may push more out.
Worth a shot right? 😉
 
Definitely worth a shot! It'll likely free up even more, though with the last pull at 0.8g, I think I could probably get another quarter to half a gram without doing much. I'll add the salt, do a pull and report back.

Thanks,

JBArk
 
So the 6th pull, after adding a lot of salt (about 5-6 tbsps to approx 3L of solution) yielded exactly 500mg, or half a gram now. Wondering if I should do another...

This 6th pull came out as a fine crusty powder (no crystals) and was very yellow, as I expected.

Cheers,

JBArk
 
id definitely do another one if pull 6 got you 500mg

funnily enough I took a tray out my freezer last night and got exactly the same film that you had, ive also had it before. I have no idea what causes it.
 
Yeah, that's what I am thinking too. The total yield is 4.5g from 333g MHRB so far, or 1.35%, which is still quite low. I would have to yield another 1.5 g to bring the total to 6g to be at the bottom end of my normal yields though (1.7-2.2%)

What will be interesting with this is that I have 2 more of the same quantity (333g) that I will be extracting separately, so i will have 2 points of comparison.

I am also thinking as an experiment to put all the "spent" MHRB (1kg) together at the very end and do a third A/B and see what happens. I have kept the first batch in a plastic bag in the freezer.

Concerning the powdery film from pulls 1&2, I would not have been concerned if subsequent pulls under the same conditions had given the same results. And, if those 2 pulls had smelled of DMT...

Cheers,

JBArk
 
Pull 7: another 500mg!

Wow... My soup is always exhausted after 4 pulls, and now I am definitely going to be doing an 8th pull!! I am wondering if I perhaps did not scale up the amount of NPS enough. I am using 175ml for 333g of MHRB, scaled up from my usual 50ml for 100g.

This is turning out to be an unusual extraction!

My total for 6 pulls is an even 5g. Maybe I will actually make it to 6g... If so, my yield will be 1.8% and back up in its normal range...

Who knows, I may make it even higher than 6g at the rate this is going! I'll keep you all posted.

Cheers,

JBArk
 
Good stuff Jbark...I would keep your pulls low and heated, around 40-50ml...that way you have a better chance of saturating them more.
Looking good :thumb_up:
 
cyb said:
Good stuff Jbark...I would keep your pulls low and heated, around 40-50ml...that way you have a better chance of saturating them more.
Looking good :thumb_up:
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See that's the thing - I never heat my pulls. I have always found it unnecessary, having had consistent 1.7-2.2% yields after only 4 pulls with no heating... I have always maintained that such a small amount of heated NPS in a room temp solution would so quickly return to room temp or raise the temp of the solution so negligibly as to be redundant, and my successful yields have borne out this theory.

But this one... strange...

And I am reusing my naptha, so saturation should not really be an issue. I am very curious to see how many more pulls I can make! What is also strange is that pulls 6 & 7 had the exact same yield, down to the mg! (and stranger still that those two pulls were both exactly 500mg, or 1/2g, each!!)

All I can say is that no two extractions are alike!

Cheers,

JBArk
 
+1 on the thin film of DMT thing. Sometimes a pull is just very saturated and if it sits around for too long it will drop the goods quicker than visible crystals can form (what you're seeing is just tiny crystals).
 
Orion said:
+1 on the thin film of DMT thing. Sometimes a pull is just very saturated and if it sits around for too long it will drop the goods quicker than visible crystals can form (what you're seeing is just tiny crystals).
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What was strange is that none of the conditions changed between the freeze precipping of the first two pulls (combined) with any of the subsequent freeze precips. Also strange was the absence of the telltale DMT odour.

A friend noted that he had done a pull once in a pyrex dish that he realized, in retrospect, had not been properly rinsed after washing and he surmised that the thin layer of dusty powder may have been due to a thin residual film of soap on the dish. This may have been the case with my dish, though I have no way of verifying this.

Does this jibe with anyone else's experience?


Cheers,

JBArk
 
PULL # 8!!!!!

200mg. (Rounded up from 199)

Still some magic in that there soup, as pointed out by 3rdI. Strange that the last few pulls have been pretty much to the 100th milligram (500mg, 500mg, 199mg...)

5.2g total from 333g MHRB. 1.56% yield and counting.

Moving along to pull 9 now... This is getting ridiculous! :)

JBArk
 
jbark said:
What was strange is that none of the conditions changed between the freeze precipping of the first two pulls (combined) with any of the subsequent freeze precips. Also strange was the absence of the telltale DMT odour.

A friend noted that he had done a pull once in a pyrex dish that he realized, in retrospect, had not been properly rinsed after washing and he surmised that the thin layer of dusty powder may have been due to a thin residual film of soap on the dish. This may have been the case with my dish, though I have no way of verifying this.
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It really comes down to how quickly the crystals form out of solution and the surface medium in which the crystals grow on. There could have very well been different conditions between pulls 1-2 and 3-4, just none that you could see. The surface of the glass provides microscopic seed locations for crystals to form on, and as you scraped up your yield from pulls 1-2 you probably made tiny scratches along the surface of the glass, giving a better surface for cystals to form on your next pull 3-4. :)

Pretty amazing that you are still pulling spice from that brew hah. Gratz
 
Kash said:
jbark said:
What was strange is that none of the conditions changed between the freeze precipping of the first two pulls (combined) with any of the subsequent freeze precips. Also strange was the absence of the telltale DMT odour.

A friend noted that he had done a pull once in a pyrex dish that he realized, in retrospect, had not been properly rinsed after washing and he surmised that the thin layer of dusty powder may have been due to a thin residual film of soap on the dish. This may have been the case with my dish, though I have no way of verifying this.
Click to expand...
It really comes down to how quickly the crystals form out of solution and the surface medium in which the crystals grow on. There could have very well been different conditions between pulls 1-2 and 3-4, just none that you could see. The surface of the glass provides microscopic seed locations for crystals to form on, and as you scraped up your yield from pulls 1-2 you probably made tiny scratches along the surface of the glass, giving a better surface for cystals to form on your next pull 3-4. :)

Pretty amazing that you are still pulling spice from that brew hah. Gratz
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I may have neglected to mention, but pulls 1&2 were in one pyrex dish and 3&4 were in a different one, both in the freezer at the same time. But your comment makes me think that maybe there is something to the "soap film" hypothesis... a thin, invisible layer of soap residue would create a different surface to adhere to than pyrex. It still does not explain the absence of the telltale DMT odour though, which was in all subsequent pulls...

And it is amazing, yes, that there is still gold in that thar soup! I can only figure that that quantity of NPS was too small for the quantity of aqueous solution and was saturating too quickly in the first pulls, though I scaled up exactly as the math required.

I am doing a 9th pull today, and I expect about another 100mg or so. I'll post the results here. This is the largest extraction I have ever done at 333g MHRB (265g being the second runner), and definitely the strangest...

JBArk
 
9th pull: 85mg

TOTAL: 5.3 grams, rounded up for a total yield of 1.6%, slightly less than I usually get.

I will compare the other 2 x 333g extractions to this yield eventually, but it may take some time.

This thread went from being a series of questions about a strange set of pulls to a thread documenting my total yield, but worthwhile nevertheless! Still strange though when when you consider I got up to 9 pulls!

I think the last couple of pulls were only worthwhile because of the large initial quantity of MHRB. Had there been less, I would likely have stopped doing pulls a while back, when the percentages are taken into account.

Thanks all,

JBArk
 
jbark said:
Will more salt basify more of the DMT for subsequent pulls?
Click to expand...
I just read this and felt the need to make a comment. The fact is that adding salt does actually "basify" the solution further. pH is most often taught to be the negative log of the concentration of hydronium/hydroxide ions in solution, but this is actually only an approximation. pH is actually the negative log of the "activity" of hydronium/hydroxide in solution. The activity of any ion is proportional to the ionic strength of the solution. Activity is essentially just concentration times ionic strength. It seems to be that by making the solution "saltier" the acid/base properties become more pronounced, thereby causing the hydroxides in a basic solution to convert the spice to its freebase form more readily. In fact your idea was very right. But the real benefits of salting are to make the freebase spice less "comfortable" in the aqueous layer, thereby moving more spice into the NPS.
 
ChemisTryptaMan said:
jbark said:
Will more salt basify more of the DMT for subsequent pulls?
Click to expand...
I just read this and felt the need to make a comment. The fact is that adding salt does actually "basify" the solution further. pH is most often taught to be the negative log of the concentration of hydronium/hydroxide ions in solution, but this is actually only an approximation. pH is actually the negative log of the "activity" of hydronium/hydroxide in solution. The activity of any ion is proportional to the ionic strength of the solution. Activity is essentially just concentration times ionic strength. It seems to be that by making the solution "saltier" the acid/base properties become more pronounced, thereby causing the hydroxides in a basic solution to convert the spice to its freebase form more readily. In fact your idea was very right. But the real benefits of salting are to make the freebase spice less "comfortable" in the aqueous layer, thereby moving more spice into the NPS.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense - I may have expressed it wrongly or vaguely, but that was sort of what I was supposing - that adding salt makes the DMT convert to freebase more easily and in greater quantity. I didn't know the mechanics of all this, but your explanation of the underlying chemistry makes sense (to a non chemist!).

So the salt increases the "activity" of the solution, lowering its pH and encouraging more of the DMT to convert to freebase. Got it. :)

Thanks again ChemisTryptaMan!

JBArk
 
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