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Syrian Rue + Baking Soda = Harmine?

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Apoc

Apoc

Esteemed member
OG Pioneer
HI! I was just wondering if anyone has actually tried boiling up some rue, and adding sodium bicarbonate? No manske, just boil, add baking soda.

Baking soda has a ph of about 8.2. Harmine pKa is 7.70 while harmaline is pKa 9.80, so I've read. This means that theorhetically, baking soda should be basic enough to make harmine crash out of a solution with a ph of higher than 7.7. While at the same time, harmaline, with a ph higher than baking soda, should not crash out of a solution with a ph of 8.2 (baking soda). I was just wondering if anyone has actually tried it and if it worked for you. Yeilds? How much baking soda was needed?
 
If you read this - A nice harmala extraction - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

You can see that you can do acid boil -> base, to acid -> base, to manske. No reducing the water or anything. If you want to use this precipitate as is(uncleaned with uterotoxic compounds), doubling your dose is probably necessary. Ex: if you need 200mg of clean harmalas to inhibit, your probably going to need 400mg of the dirty extract.

Why not use NaOH though, raising the pH will allow a higher % harmaline to precipitate(in theory) as well. There's nothing wrong with harmaline? A little extra work will give you white harmalas I highly suggest it.
 
could one crash out the harmine/vacoine/vasicine (or however they are spelled) with sodium bicarb and then filter the solution and crash out just harmaline with lye?
 
First you have to find the pKa of vasicine and vasicinone, to know at what pH they crash out. I couldn't find their pKas around...
I doubt it would be a good way to separate, their pKa would have to be much higher or lower than harmine and harmaline for it to be effective separation, very unlikely.

That's the great advantage of doing a manske instead, because it will completely separate from those alkaloids. Then if you want to separate harmine and harmaline you can do so afterwards.
 
hmmmm, ok. I'm trying to wrap my head around why all those steps are necessary. I don't think the non psychoactive compounds are uterotoxic, they are just known to cause uterine contractions.

Thanks endlessness. I want to make sure I get all the alks, so I think the best method would be to do a manske first. Since I have read that manske does not yield as high as a/b, perhaps the best method is to do a manske initially, then base the remaining solution to make sure everything gets pulled. Then manske those the based harmalas. In the end, separate with sodium bi-carbonate.

Or I guess I could try doing it both ways and see which works better. Mankse first or manske later, or no manske. But as of now, I'm not even convinced mankse works. I fail.

Mydriasis said:
Why not use NaOH though, raising the pH will allow a higher % harmaline to precipitate(in theory) as well. There's nothing wrong with harmaline? A little extra work will give you white harmalas I highly suggest it.
Click to expand...

I don't want harmaline.
 
Apoc said:
hmmmm, ok. I'm trying to wrap my head around why all those steps are necessary. I don't think the non psychoactive compounds are uterotoxic, they are just known to cause uterine contractions.

Thanks endlessness. I want to make sure I get all the alks, so I think the best method would be to do a manske first. Since I have read that manske does not yield as high as a/b, perhaps the best method is to do a manske initially, then base the remaining solution to make sure everything gets pulled. Then manske those the based harmalas. In the end, separate with sodium bi-carbonate.

Mydriasis said:
Why not use NaOH though, raising the pH will allow a higher % harmaline to precipitate(in theory) as well. There's nothing wrong with harmaline? A little extra work will give you white harmalas I highly suggest it.
Click to expand...

I don't want harmaline.
Click to expand...

In terms of removing vasicine/etc, one manske is enough. In my experience a manske is very effective and non-lossy way of precipitating harmalas. Precipitating the base seems lose more alks (but also clean them). To get them really clean gotta repeat steps a few times filtering well while they are dissolved in water. to remove solid impurities.

Why dont you want harmaline?
 
endlessness said:
In terms of removing vasicine/etc, one manske is enough. In my experience a manske is very effective and non-lossy way of precipitating harmalas.
Click to expand...

Oh, good. I'm not really a tek guy. All the steps and filtering baffles me. I don't know how you guys do it. The product gets stuck in the filter, or the filter doesn't allow the water to pass through, etc

endlessness said:
Why dont you want harmaline?
Click to expand...


Due to claims that harmaline is more "stoning", and inferior as an maoi for psychedelics. My limited experience with pure harmine, thanks much to flowingvisions, suggests that harmine is preferable.
 
Apoc said:
endlessness said:
In terms of removing vasicine/etc, one manske is enough. In my experience a manske is very effective and non-lossy way of precipitating harmalas.
Click to expand...

Oh, good. I'm not really a tek guy. All the steps and filtering baffles me. I don't know how you guys do it. The product gets stuck in the filter, or the filter doesn't allow the water to pass through, etc

endlessness said:
Why dont you want harmaline?
Click to expand...


Due to claims that harmaline is more "stoning", and inferior as an maoi for psychedelics. My limited experience with pure harmine, thanks much to flowingvisions, suggests that harmine is preferable.
Click to expand...

Yeah who knows what any FV batch contains anyways :p

In my experience harmaline is perfectly fine, I wonder how much of the bad effects people have from harmaline are part of self-suggestion. Sure harmaline (and harmine too in its way) has a sedative aspect ime, but this doesnt make it bad in any way, it has a wonderful dreamy aspect to it. I think you should experiment with it yourself before coming to conclusions just reading from other's opinions.

I also think that harmalas extraction are really easy, just getting the hang of the filtering tricks. But do as you please :)
 
I wonder how much of this is just self suggestion as well. I tested a brew of rue I finished reducing today and I felt great. No toxicity at all. I only drank 1 gram but really it was just like maybe 40-50g of caapi, but maybe a bit more euphoric. I didnt get sick or anything from the harmaline. It really didn't feel any worse than drinking manske alkaloids.
 
I've read harmaline is neurotoxic, is this true? If so that might be a good reason to go for harmine instead. Anyhow, i bet the 'stoning' effect has less to do with which harmala alk you're getting, and probably more to due with impurities in the extraction you are taking.
 
^ where did you hear that? I doubt harmaline is toxic..all the studies I have read reguarding the application of peganum harmala as a medicine were positive. So far I cant even find anything at all related to toxicity of rue other than that pregnant women should avoid it, and even then, the vasicine has proven to have benificial medicial applications..
 
narmz said:
I've read harmaline is neurotoxic, is this true? If so that might be a good reason to go for harmine instead. Anyhow, i bet the 'stoning' effect has less to do with which harmala alk you're getting, and probably more to due with impurities in the extraction you are taking.
Click to expand...

You are probably referring to posts that have been written which suggest there are non psychoactive "toxins" in Syrian Rue. Here's one such thread about rue whats wrong with rue? - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus Where did you hear hamaline is neurotoxic? I've never heard that before.

Yes, perhaps some of the harmine vs harmaline talk has to do with expectations. But, a lot of the rhetoric hailing the superiority of harmine/thh comes from a lot of really experienced people. The few times I have taken harmine/thh, it has been.... different. Supreme happiness, unimaginable levels of psychedelic greatness. On the other hand, dmt is such a funny thing. I can say that harmine is so great and I reached levels I never reached before, but then I'll take good old Syrian Rue, and reach other levels never reached before. It's so incredible that each session is different, and there are always different realms to explore.

The only way to know for sure the differences between harmine vs harmaline is to isolate them both, use seperately, and with spice and note any differences.
 
I actually found that from wikipedia, here is the quote 'Harmaline has both protective and toxic effects on neurons.' - and here is the source for that 'Method of treating chemical dependency using β-carboline alkaloids, derivatives and salts thereof' - that is a patent, the articles cited in that patent which probably contain the information regarding harmaline's effect on neurons are quoted here -
patent said:
Lamarre et al. defined the cerebellar activity of harmaline in 1971 (Lamarre Y. et al, Harmaline-Induced Rhythmic Activity of Cerebellar and Lower Brain Stem Neurons, Brain Res. 32:246-250). In 1973, further studies of the physiological effects of harmaline were provided. (Harmaline-Induced Rhythmic Activity of Alpha and Gamma Motoneurons in the Cat, Brain Res. 63:430-434).
Click to expand...
 
narmz said:
I actually found that from wikipedia, here is the quote 'Harmaline has both protective and toxic effects on neurons.' - and here is the source for that 'Method of treating chemical dependency using β-carboline alkaloids, derivatives and salts thereof' - that is a patent, the articles cited in that patent which probably contain the information regarding harmaline's effect on neurons are quoted here -
patent said:
Lamarre et al. defined the cerebellar activity of harmaline in 1971 (Lamarre Y. et al, Harmaline-Induced Rhythmic Activity of Cerebellar and Lower Brain Stem Neurons, Brain Res. 32:246-250). In 1973, further studies of the physiological effects of harmaline were provided. (Harmaline-Induced Rhythmic Activity of Alpha and Gamma Motoneurons in the Cat, Brain Res. 63:430-434).
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

hmmm, that was a very interesting study. So the study is saying the "neurotoxic effect" of harmaline is that harmaline has been observedto induce rhythmic activity of cerebellar and lower brain stem neurons, as well as alpha and gamma motor neurons in cats? Any more thoughts on what that means?
 
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