Syrian rue + Kratom=?

[IamZombie]

I've been reasearching mixing syrian rue with kratom and have gotten a lot of mixed signals. The majority of people saying don't do it, but with some saying they have done it with no issues. I understand that rue is a MAOI and its not a full one in a sense just being a MAOI-A. Now I'm not saying I'm a expert this is just what my reasearch has shown. My main interest in this is that I think it will bring out more pronounced affect from the kratom, in high doses of kratom I have experienced tons of closed eye visuals that at times I almost become lost in them. Any comments or suggestions welcome sorry if I sound like a newb just don't want to go into serotonin overload. Thanks

 

[kerelsk]

I know this is an old post, but it might stimulate thought for someone searching about the subject.

Kratom seems to induce a headache-like feeling at large doses for me. Sometimes this even cancels out the body-oriented euphoria. It's my feeling that harmalas potentiate kratom.
I once tried first taking kratom then taking very small doses of syrian rue tea to see if they would interact at all. It certainly seemed like they did, it felt stronger and more headachy without much more euphoria. The other day I was working on a rue manske while mildly kratomated, and wanting to test the purity of the extract against salt contams I licked the end of my dropper. Very small dose, but the spirits seem antithetical, I felt a little more headachy/dizzy, they don't combine well. I think one should pay attention to one or the other. I'm not exactly sure why this is, one could imagine a slightly dreamy harmala experience mixed with the fuzziness and euphoria of kratom, but in reality this doesn't seem to work for me.

The other obvious option would be to take a good dose of harmalas and slowly sip a kratom tea. Kratom takes a little while to kick in, so you'd want to be careful. I have the feeling this would be the best way to go about it, but it hardly seems worthwhile. Kratom is constipating, harmalas are purgative- physical metaphors.

Kratom + aya looks :thumb_dow to me

 

[DeDao]

I know this is an old post, but it might stimulate thought for someone searching about the subject.

Kratom seems to induce a headache-like feeling at large doses for me. Sometimes this even cancels out the body-oriented euphoria. It's my feeling that harmalas potentiate kratom.
I once tried first taking kratom then taking very small doses of syrian rue tea to see if they would interact at all. It certainly seemed like they did, it felt stronger and more headachy without much more euphoria. The other day I was working on a rue manske while mildly kratomated, and wanting to test the purity of the extract against salt contams I licked the end of my dropper. Very small dose, but the spirits seem antithetical, I felt a little more headachy/dizzy, they don't combine well. I think one should pay attention to one or the other. I'm not exactly sure why this is, one could imagine a slightly dreamy harmala experience mixed with the fuzziness and euphoria of kratom, but in reality this doesn't seem to work for me.

The other obvious option would be to take a good dose of harmalas and slowly sip a kratom tea. Kratom takes a little while to kick in, so you'd want to be careful. I have the feeling this would be the best way to go about it, but it hardly seems worthwhile. Kratom is constipating, harmalas are purgative- physical metaphors.

Kratom + aya looks :thumb_dow to me

I agree and I am glad you responded to this, even if late.
I have experienced headaches with kratom too. Very interesting. Did you ever seem to figure out why the kratom causes headaches with some people?​

 

[kerelsk]

I always take plain leaf, and I think the headaches must be caused by some alkaloid in there. There are plenty of different strains available, and each one seems to have substantially unique effects. Some cause side effects very easily.

Besides this, who knows how your body is metabolizing these things. Mitragynine is metabolized into mitragynine pseudoindoxyl, which I'm sure is playing a role, since it has a lot stronger opioid activity. Maybe if you can't properly metabolize mitragynine you get more stimulation than you'd like, such as headachyness. From internet lore I've heard that isolates (maybe barring 4-oh-mitragynine) are not as good as the whole leaf spectrum.
I've noticed that kratom is more euphoric when you have a little bit of a tolerance, but maybe just because it's less easy to overshoot the dose and enter the unpleasant range.

There seems to be a lot more happening than opioid agonism. Like, how does the stimulating part happen? Is it an adenosine antagonist like caffeine? Doesn't really feel like it.

I think it's a plant with a good spirit, one that will sooner overstimulate you than let you die of respiratory depression. That's the sign of a better friend than the poppy, if nothing else

 

[SpartanII]

I've had several years of experience with opiates/opioids/opiate-like substances including kratom and the only time I would get headaches was if I over-indulged and didn't stay hydrated. I believe drinking a lot of water is so important when taking this class of drug.

I always take plain leaf, and I think the headaches must be caused by some alkaloid in there. There are plenty of different strains available, and each one seems to have substantially unique effects. Some cause side effects very easily.

Besides this, who knows how your body is metabolizing these things. Mitragynine is metabolized into mitragynine pseudoindoxyl, which I'm sure is playing a role, since it has a lot stronger opioid activity. Maybe if you can't properly metabolize mitragynine you get more stimulation than you'd like, such as headachyness. From internet lore I've heard that isolates (maybe barring 4-oh-mitragynine) are not as good as the whole leaf spectrum.
I've noticed that kratom is more euphoric when you have a little bit of a tolerance, but maybe just because it's less easy to overshoot the dose and enter the unpleasant range.

There seems to be a lot more happening than opioid agonism. Like, how does the stimulating part happen? Is it an adenosine antagonist like caffeine? Doesn't really feel like it.

You may find THIS thread helpful.

 

[magic9]

Interesting about the headaches. I first began my kratom usage with "Red Vein thailand" and the first onset was a familiar opiate warmth/euphoria that ive been looking for since i tried vicodin. Then after about 2 hours i got a nice deep headache.

2 days later i tried again. same issue but worse.

SO i then tried "GREEN vein thailand" and i got exactly what i wanted without the headache.

2 days later tried the red vein again and got the headaches. I dont use red vein thailand anymore.

So then i tried white vein kalimantan and that stuff was even better, even more vicodin like.

I tried a few other varieties and none give me that deep headache like red vein thailand. UNLESS i dont drink enough water. I usually toss and wash now with orange juice / pineapple juice. zero kratom flavor. mixes well. and i usually pour 2 two glasses to make sure i get all the powder out of the glass. this results in a decent amount of liquid accompanying the powder. Also if you dont drink enough you wont be able to poop that powder out!

 

[JefFlux]

Interesting thread - I've been searching for factual evidence of contraindications between Kratom and MAOIs since having progressively more complications with it and ayahuasca the longer I use it.

When I first drank ayahuasca in the context of having been using predominantly re-strains of Kratom for about 4-5 months, it was fine...having had an average dose of Kratom (5-6 grams) early that morning and a strong cup of ayahuasca in ceremony that night; a little discomfort but nothing more than usual physical ayahuasca stuff (this was also a traditional 9-plant Amazonian brew, so many plants to potentially complicate things).

The second time was a few months later no issue at all, drinking a standard B. Caapi-Acuminata brew with a little Chacruna thrown in having had a dose of Kratom (7 grams) at lunchtime that day. As was the next time in which I had Kratom a few hours before ayahuasca (3 cups in total of Caapi-Courtii each night over two nights) with no real issue.

However, the next time with a Caapi-Acacia brew was fine on the first cup (50grams of vine, 20grams of acacia Courtii) but it was the second cup that caused a state of confusion and excitation with an almost LSD like feel...racing thoughts, 'physical rattling' and the feeling of some internal physical conflict going on.

On the last occasion (a rather unique orally active acacia served in a reverential ceremony, which may have had some quite unique beta-carbolines at work), it was also the second cup that tipped the balance. What I experienced, I can only describe as 'severe dis-equilibrium'... the feeling of every cell being out of balance, nervous system rattled, emotionally all over the place and a state of deep mental confusion. In this case, the medicine was very clearly telling me that it did not know how to address this plant in my system as it was both opiate antagonist and agonist (implying that had it been just opiate it could purge it with no issue). On both these last occasions the purging that did take place was deeply guttural and loud, but relatively dry retching and painful AF !.

In the future I plan be clear of Kratom at least 3 days, which for anyone who enjoys this plant regularly will know, is often no easy task ...and I am hoping for a more smooth (or at least my more typical) ayahuasca journey and process.

Appreciation in advance for any feedback and shared anecdotal experiences,

cheers,

Flux

 

[Ulim]

I found this regarding opiods and maoi

Coadministration of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) with certain opioids has been associated with rare reports of severe and fatal adverse reactions. There appear to be two types of interaction, an excitatory and a depressive one. Symptoms of the excitatory reaction may include agitation, headache, diaphoresis, hyperpyrexia, flushing, shivering, myoclonus, rigidity, tremor, diarrhea, hypertension, tachycardia, seizures, and coma. Death has occurred in some cases.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I found this regarding opiods and maoi

Coadministration of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) with certain opioids has been associated with rare reports of severe and fatal adverse reactions. There appear to be two types of interaction, an excitatory and a depressive one. Symptoms of the excitatory reaction may include agitation, headache, diaphoresis, hyperpyrexia, flushing, shivering, myoclonus, rigidity, tremor, diarrhea, hypertension, tachycardia, seizures, and coma. Death has occurred in some cases.

That sounds remarkably similar to certain aspects of serotonin syndrome, wouldn't you say?

 

[Kajlian]

I found this regarding opiods and maoi

Coadministration of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) with certain opioids has been associated with rare reports of severe and fatal adverse reactions. There appear to be two types of interaction, an excitatory and a depressive one. Symptoms of the excitatory reaction may include agitation, headache, diaphoresis, hyperpyrexia, flushing, shivering, myoclonus, rigidity, tremor, diarrhea, hypertension, tachycardia, seizures, and coma. Death has occurred in some cases.

I'm pretty sure that only occurs with some of the opioids, and there are others with which MAOIs are not contraindicated whatsoever, such as codeine, morphine and oxycodone.

Found this with a quick google search: "Some opioid analgesics are associated with a risk of serotonin syndrome in combination with MAOIs due to their serotonergic properties. Other combinations may result in opioid toxicity due to CYP450 enzyme inhibition by the MAOI." Here's a link if you want to read further: https://www.sps.nhs.uk/articles/wha...ioids-and-monoamine-oxidase-inhibitors-maois/

Since I don't think Kratom has any affinity for the 5-HT receptors I don't think it would be contraindicated by MAOIs, however you don't know with plant based medicines since there are so many different alkaloids in Kratom and the alkaloid content could vary a lot between batches, I would tread carefully.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

It's not about kratom alkaloids' affinity at 5-HT receptors, rather the consequent release of actual serotonin that occurs as part of the chain of events set off by stimulating opioid receptors. This serotonin can then build up to dangerous levels if an MAO inhibitor is present (As I have understood it).

Harmala alkaloids do interact with the CYP450 system so it's worth checking out where kratom stands in that regard as well.

 

[skoobysnax]

Bumping to add this. Mitragyna speciosa: Clinical, Toxicological Aspects and Analysis in Biological and Non-Biological Samples
I urge caution.

 

[RhythmSpring]

I found this regarding opiods and maoi

Coadministration of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) with certain opioids has been associated with rare reports of severe and fatal adverse reactions. There appear to be two types of interaction, an excitatory and a depressive one. Symptoms of the excitatory reaction may include agitation, headache, diaphoresis, hyperpyrexia, flushing, shivering, myoclonus, rigidity, tremor, diarrhea, hypertension, tachycardia, seizures, and coma. Death has occurred in some cases.

While I'm all for not dying, I think this refers to pharmaceutical MAOIs and pharmaceutical opioids. Is there any evidence that combining purely herbal MAOIs (RIMAs, really), and herbal opioids are dangerous?

 

[King Tryptamine]

I found this regarding opiods and maoi

Coadministration of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) with certain opioids has been associated with rare reports of severe and fatal adverse reactions. There appear to be two types of interaction, an excitatory and a depressive one. Symptoms of the excitatory reaction may include agitation, headache, diaphoresis, hyperpyrexia, flushing, shivering, myoclonus, rigidity, tremor, diarrhea, hypertension, tachycardia, seizures, and coma. Death has occurred in some cases.

While I'm all for not dying, I think this refers to pharmaceutical MAOIs and pharmaceutical opioids. Is there any evidence that combining purely herbal MAOIs (RIMAs, really), and herbal opioids are dangerous?

Don't quote me on this but I think I remember reading a post from CorpusCallosum a while back stating that the danger from combining MAOI's with opioids mainly arises from opioid drugs which have serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake inhibition qualities such as tramadol. The mitragynine from kratom has a pretty diverse pharmacology which I know nothing about so I would not attempt the combination let alone have any reason to.

As for other natural opiates I can only say that at first glance I can't see a problem arising from combining harmalas with codeine or morphine which I've done so in the past, not at the same time but I still had the opiates lingering in my system. YMMV as with any drug, there's people who've died from as little as 30mg of cocaine and there's people who can tolerate up to 5g.

Best advise would be to use opiates separately or not at all. Opiates whether natural or not are largely detrimental drugs unless prescribed for severe pain (e.g. gunshot wounds) or lethal illnesses by a competent professional.

P.S. I'm sick of hearing this thought of natural drugs being safer or better than its synthetic or artificially produced counterpart, maybe in some scenarios yes but the same restrictions that apply for drugs like moclobemide should also apply to drugs like harmine or harmaline IMO.

Link - Harmala, Morphine and Codeine - Health & Safety - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[dragonrider]

King tryptamine is right, mitragynine and other alkaloids present in kratom act on a broad range of receptors.

I personally wouldn't want to chance it, but if you realy insist on trying, i would at least start with very low doses of both and only slighly increase one at a time. And never simultaneously increase the both of them in any subsequent trial.

 

[EliasPltn]

I've been reasearching mixing syrian rue with kratom and have gotten a lot of mixed signals. The majority of people saying don't do it, but with some saying they have done it with no issues. I understand that rue is a MAOI and its not a full one in a sense just being a MAOI-A. Now I'm not saying I'm a expert this is just what my reasearch has shown. My main interest in this is that I think it will bring out more pronounced affect from the kratom, in high doses of kratom I have experienced tons of closed eye visuals that at times I almost become lost in them. Any comments or suggestions welcome sorry if I sound like a newb just don't want to go into serotonin overload. Thanks

I have been taking anywhere from 500 mg to 1 G of 10x Syrian Rue extract along with my Kratom dose of about 5 G and it has been nothing but lovely I do not have any negative effects whatsoever but I have gone through serotonin storm in the past a few years ago a handful of times and ever since then it does not seem to occur for me. Know your body and always start small and slow but personally I don't find any sort of issue between the two even at this very moment

 

[Voidmatrix]

Bump

Here's my question: while I don't really have interest in taking harmalas and kratom together, I have considered taking them during the same day separately.

I love harmalas, and have unfortunately gravitated away from using them.

I have been using kratom here and there (1.2g at a time, rarely redosing during the day) to help with back and hip pain. I just got news of a potential lower labrum tear today.

So, how long one wait in between doing either kratom before harmalas, or harmalas before kratom, and does it matter the ROA for the harmalas?

One love

 

[Jamie01]

I have mixed them in the same day hours apart many times without issues. Usually I only took 2g of kratom a day and sublingual harmalas. I was not trying to combine the two I just used both in a day.

For pain and sleep the best thing I found to combine kratom with is honestly 15-30mg of DXM and some weed.

 

[Transform]

There's a useful-looking link in a post above:
Kratom Information Thread

Kratom Information Thread

Here's a compilation of information that I have gathered about this plant. The aim is to have this thread serve as a repository for all the available scientific data on Mitragyna speciosa, otherwise known as Kratom, and for additional information to be posted here for purposes of organization...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

 

[Voidmatrix]

With the topic of MAOIs in the drug community, usually only the minority are correct. A good rule of thumb for getting info about a contraindicated substance is to do a search in reddit.com/r/MAOIs. Indeed, you're likely to find better results in there than in Google Scholar since "much of what is published by doctors in books and journals about MAOIs is either poorly informed, or just plain wrong."[1] But there are also some reckless posts—and different people may have different sensitivities to this—for example, someone stated that he used to potentiate MDMA with moclobemide because "I was a reckless little shit who wanted the potentiation and because the city's biggest ER was literally across the street from these events."[2] Another person used that post as encouragement and wound up in the ER.[3]




I recently gobbled up a bunch of cheap kratom capsules to calm down after consuming low dose DMT with Parnate, a "full" MAOI. It worked a charm.


"I always take kratom with every drug it makes it better stg, I take it with Ayahuasca and it completely gets rid of the cold shaking. It's not really even a stimulant in neurotransmitter terms."

Purple-Ad-4026, 2024-07-26, reddit.com/r/Psychonaut


"I've had kratom in my system with a variety of drugs/serotonergic drugs many times over the years, as well as harmala alkaloids, and I haven't noticed any signs of serotonin toxicity or any sort of interaction."

openmind, 2017-12-18, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24854160#24854160


1. MAOIs (Parnate, Nardil): Misconceptions and Questions No. 1. Ken Gillman, MD. PsychoTropical Research. 2012-11-14

2. [deleted account], 2019-10-19, re: Low dose MDMA while on an MAOI

3. fluffelicious, 2022-05-27, re: Low dose MDMA while on an MAOI


Understanding the safety profile of MAOIs

I have mixed them in the same day hours apart many times without issues. Usually I only took 2g of kratom a day and sublingual harmalas. I was not trying to combine the two I just used both in a day.

For pain and sleep the best thing I found to combine kratom with is honestly 15-30mg of DXM and some weed.

Thank you both. This assuaged some of my concern and I finished off a changa bowl long after having taken kratom. It was nice. Things were fine.

One love