If we cannot define the extent of the extant universe, then this science must, a priori, be limited....
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Tantra is the SCIENCE of becoming one with the universe
- Thread starter Dedalus
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Dedalus
Rising Star
Tantra is about achieving full awareness. Another way of saying this is of being completely in the present. Another way to say what I mean is a state of non-thinking, when your actions and words flow from that hidden stream within, with no effort. I believe enlightenment, whatever it may be, is evident in those who act this way -- without needing to think, ever for any situation. Jesus may have been one of those people. When people act sincerely from the heart in a situation, they don't think, and their action inspires love and peace within those who watch.
The first of the 112 methods tells you to be aware of two points in your breathing: the points where inspiration and expiration invert. The science that I perceive in this? I can't rightfully call it science, so I guess I should have altered my title a bit. But here goes: (and by "oneness" in the following sentence, I simply mean everything that is happening in your brain.)
At these two infinitesimal points, we are to imagine that there is some whole, some eternal oneness; this will be turning those parts of our brains that are constantly in their rooms masturbating outwards, to accept their place in sensing and ordering information from the outside world.
The first of the 112 methods tells you to be aware of two points in your breathing: the points where inspiration and expiration invert. The science that I perceive in this? I can't rightfully call it science, so I guess I should have altered my title a bit. But here goes: (and by "oneness" in the following sentence, I simply mean everything that is happening in your brain.)
At these two infinitesimal points, we are to imagine that there is some whole, some eternal oneness; this will be turning those parts of our brains that are constantly in their rooms masturbating outwards, to accept their place in sensing and ordering information from the outside world.
I understand your concept of total awareness (and I guess experiencing this instant we call now with no hankering to the past of self-constructed delusions or of an imagined future) but I think in order to function in life as it is around us, this mind-set as a permanent feature could hinder the process of living.The glimpses that psychedelics when entered into with a total shedding of preconceived notions allows us a transitory reminder of this Unity but IMO, it should just be a reminder which can allow one to re-focus on the purposes of our sentient inquisitive existence.
benzyme said:
I agree with this perspective, as correlations are our best chance at duplicating the event or experiment, thus arriving at some repeatable data which can be used to understand things from a new vantage point. I use this identical approach when I explore the depths of my own interior consciousness. I am speaking in terms of sober meditative practice and the respectful usage of entheogens.
When I return from a particularly profound meditation experience, I review in my mind all of the details and possible influences which have effected the resulting states of mind. This is a good way to organize specific impetuses and pragmatically critique how these impetuses effected my concentration (for the better or worse). I then rule out certain types of input, in favor of those which are most likely to generate positive results and even breakthrough experiences.
Or I apply the rule towards negative distractions and gauge if this decreased or was completely irrelevant, with the depth of meditative state I attuned to. So, while any spiritual experience is purely subjective, we can make some reasonable sense of the stimulators or detractors, within the transcendental process. Those God damn mosquitoes messed with my concentration, again!!! :lol:
benzyme said:
Well said, Sir! I might add that while human belief systems are fraught with interpretation and differences in semantics, their AIM is true, however neatly encapsulated in faith, personal beliefs and flights of inspiration. This is why joedirt and I feel that if we approach the study of the Divine with the same degree of level-headed, pragmatism, that we approach scientific research... we might gain a wealth of information by which to advance our collective understanding of the universe, self and God.
We can never put the Godhead Experience into a working, mechanical process, but we can study the parameters of this phenomenon with a keener sense of scholasticism and hopefully, a greater degree of objectivity. :idea:
benzyme said:
Now, now... let's play nice benzyme. We all have some degree of mutual consensus about the concept of enlightenment. It isn't a theology, an achievement, nor a destination. I suggest that "enlightenment" is a state of merging within the Field of Unified Consciousness, in which all things are intrinsically interconnected in sublime singularity. As with our inspired visions of the Grid, all points of mind meet in the center.
I believe that there exists a state of pure spiritual awareness, by which we are able to perceive a direct union with all existence. We can find ways to properly merge into higher planes of awakening and in so doing, forge pathways that lead us further than our intellects alone are able to.
There is a direct access into an immersion within the Clear Light of the Void. We can find the way and move beyond the ego, into the insubstantial, indivisible Spirit. Now, if it can be done with the aid of a chemical ally, it may just be possible, it can be done without a psychedelic catalyst. Well, I sure hope so!!! I have cultivated a deep faith, that it can be so.
That being said, after 37 years of regular sitting and moving meditation, I still do feel the need to enlist Sacred Medicines in my journey towards the One. In all honesty, the nearly 18 years I abstained from their usage was a slow and steady trek. Ironically, the eternal now takes decades of practice to perceive innately.
And then there are psychedelics... sometimes a boy just wants to take a sky rocket ride into the realms beyond. KABOOM!!! That's just where entheogens have their profound value to the human species, right? 8)
As with all things within the parameters of human existence, we can tune-in and tune-out of this state of Unified Being. (Sigh) Especially with psychedelically initiated/activated spiritual levels of expanded consciousness. When the magic chemical wears off in our brains, we come back to sentient life and return to our daydreams. Back to reality, as it were. :?
So, yeah... those who claim to be permanently fixed in a state of union with the Godhead, are likely to be full of it. Those who are "enlightened" never speak in those terms and those who aspire to be, should think twice before barking up the wrong tree, eh? Peace, guys and gals.
I have to admit, attaining those states during meditation takes serious discipline, arguably as much, if not more, than applying the scientific method. I have a different kind of respect for those who have mastery over their own mind, for they truly know inner peace.
benzyme said:
So do I, benzyme. I earnestly aspire to train myself to be so disciplined as those who are truly enlightened. My sadhana has gone through various stages of extremes and repose... but I have found that the longer I practice, the more constant the focus I have come to maintain. It could be called inner peace and I honestly don't quite know if I am any closer than when I began the journey.
It's a lot like tilling the soil in a garden and then planting the seeds and waiting for the awakening of the plants. Just like the old Zen saying,
"Waiting for fullness is." (Gotta love Robert A. Heinlein)
For myself, I would have a greater struggle working within the scientific field. As we discussed on another thread, the right hemisphere of my brain has predominance. As a boy, I thought this was a curse, as society frowned upon "day dreamers". Eventually, I accepted that while I was apparently intelligent and creative, in my own way, I was really having difficulty learning to read, write and tell time. It's not that I was unable, I was unwilling.
So yeah, I do find it easier to direct my attention towards the internal, than the external. Entheogens only exacerbate this propensity. Ultimately, I desire to balance the hemispheres of my brain and then direct my attention towards regions of my brain which most effectively maximize my awareness and bridge the gap between my limited subjectivity and an objective window into new horizons.
I am committed to do so in a scientific manner, even if I am not operating within the parameters of a true science. I will adhere to the precepts of Shaastra and walk the line.
I'll freely admit it, I am not exactly the devotional type. I never felt comfortable with blind faith and just believing what I was told was true. My faith must have something tangible or I would not believe in it. I need to understand the reason for it... or it is artificial and most useless conceptualization, for my soul's quest.
I truly respect that you, being a lefty and all, for having attained the degree of eloquence and impeccability of rationale, which you so clearly express. You've a brilliant mind and are quite a deep thinker. Cheers! 8)
Jin
yes
۩ said:
i agree with house 100%
i am an indian , been to osho ashram in pune , read his books
all i can tell you is ,
about his books - osho keeps on repeating the same thing in his books over and over again , a book that can be written in 60 pages becomes 600 pages for nothing , if osho could think then probably the books would have come out better , cannot believe even why he wrote so many books
personally i never met osho (he was dead by that time ) , but the ashram is beautiful , it exactly shows how many westereners were fooled to lavish all their money and attention on this place
i myself am a spiritual person , who 100% belives in an omnipotent creator , i've talked to many spiritual people and leaders from india and many have many things to say
all i say is Spirituality is a matter of ones heart and Soul , teachers can show us the way
there are not 112 ways to enlightenment , their is only one and that is the way of the truthfulness
be honest and open that is the way , learn and proseper , pray and be humble , yoga also works but yoga is like trying to climb a mountain while it rains heavily , while being simply truthful is like being on the mountain top already without needing to climb it in the first place , for if you are truthful mountain top will be your home but if not than do some yoga because you'll need to climb back up and down .....
pls all westerners who ever visit india , all the gurus and teachers are (word changed) , they only want your money , they'll (word changed) you dry and many will poison you with datura to looot your belongings and leave you there to die
(word changed )- apologise for cursing , will be keeping myself in check from now on , i just realised this is not a good attitude atall , last of my cursing as i am throwing the cursing habit out of the window , apologise to all once more , bad habbits have to change , thank you for understanding
Jin said:
Nicely said, Jin. I agree wholeheartedly. It could be said that there are myriad paths, there is but one way, one current, one Spirit.
Jin said:
You're killing me here, Jin. Are you saying that there are no longer enlightened sages like Sri Ramakrishna, Sri Aurobindo and Sri Ramana Maharshi... existing in the India of the 21st century? Not even in mountain hermitages and out of the way retreats?
I'm only 53 and in my short lifetime, I have studied with Sri Swami Satchidananda, whose guru was Sri Swami Sivananda and a few other illuminated sages (Santji Keshavadas, Swami Amar Jyoti and Joshu Sasaki Roshi). I can attest to their wisdom, virtue and elegance. A truly cool clusrter individuals. Gurudev Satchidananda set me free and off-down the road to find my own Dharma. Still, I respected his noble character, to this day.
BTW, I never paid a dime to him or his organization. Others may have, that's their business, but I was firm about keeping spiritual and monetary issues separate. I've seen too much money mongering taking place within cultish organizations. Others feel differently, obviously, as is evidenced by the looooooong row of Rolls Royces at the Osho ashram in Oregon. Thankfully for me, Satchidananda's ashram was based on open 'donations' and I was a penniless young man. I digress?
Anyway, Swamiji was urged by my paramguru, Sri Sivananda, to visit other great minds throughout India. some known of and some living in mountain recesses, far from humanity. Swamiji spent time with Sri Aurobindo and Sri Ramana Maharshi. I still recall the stories he told of their wisdom and deep insight into the nature of the Divine. It saddens me to think that such a light has dimmed.
BTW, I apologize for my privately thinking you were Chinese. My bad. Your user name is Jin. I automatically assumed that you were making reference to the "Three Treasures" of Chinese Taoist ideology, Jin-Qi-Shen.
I am curious about your reference to datura. I know that Shivites have indulged in hashish and datura since before the birth of Christ. The bronze statues of Lord Shiva, dancing as Nataraja, within the circle of universal being, have the images of datura flowers. It's not my ally. I am most curious what brings you to the DMT-Nexus? Is the gift of Spice prevalent in India today? I know that LSD was, to some extent, during the late 1960's and 1970's. Please shed some light upon this issue. If you would be so kind.
Also, can you give us your opinion about Soma? Do you agree with Dr. Gordon Wasson, that it was derived from amanita muscaria mushrooms and/or hashish? Or do you feel that Syrian rue was mixed with hashish to create the fabled Soma? Some even speculate that Soma was an admixture of several of these plants. Thank you in advance for your consideration.
Jin
yes
true spirituality can be found within you
true yoga and meditation is within you
learn from yourself and nature , like da vinci did as he discovered princinples of visual reality by observing nature and his vision so he could replace them on a canvas , while other artists mostly learned it from books due to poor observation capacity
many truthful spiritual learders are cleaning the streets , helping feed the poor , protecting the animals all over the planet , you'll find them all over the planet , they are not living in ashrams , temples or churches , they are doing what must be done
also true meditation and yoga is the work they do , you don't need to close your eyes to meditate - no need to sit still , do whatever you do with utmost perfection that is yoga , that is meditation
do your work and have your fun in the most perfect way , you are the one becoming the sublime master
to become one with the universe , just be and realize that you'll never be out of the universe even after you're death , you're still here one with the universe , remember , remember your way to enlightenment
the road is open before you , walk the path
there will never be a sepration , look around you're here and you're already one with the universe
whatever sepration is your own vision , you're one already with universe , this view of sepration is just what your mind has made you believe and made it painful for you , you are not alone , you are loved , you are already one with the universe , remember , remember you way to enlightenment
true yoga and meditation is within you
learn from yourself and nature , like da vinci did as he discovered princinples of visual reality by observing nature and his vision so he could replace them on a canvas , while other artists mostly learned it from books due to poor observation capacity
many truthful spiritual learders are cleaning the streets , helping feed the poor , protecting the animals all over the planet , you'll find them all over the planet , they are not living in ashrams , temples or churches , they are doing what must be done
also true meditation and yoga is the work they do , you don't need to close your eyes to meditate - no need to sit still , do whatever you do with utmost perfection that is yoga , that is meditation
do your work and have your fun in the most perfect way , you are the one becoming the sublime master
to become one with the universe , just be and realize that you'll never be out of the universe even after you're death , you're still here one with the universe , remember , remember your way to enlightenment
the road is open before you , walk the path
there will never be a sepration , look around you're here and you're already one with the universe
whatever sepration is your own vision , you're one already with universe , this view of sepration is just what your mind has made you believe and made it painful for you , you are not alone , you are loved , you are already one with the universe , remember , remember you way to enlightenment
Dedalus
Rising Star
Jin said:
The main thing that attracted me was what Osho said about the differences betwixt Tantra and Yoga. (Please don't try to make me regret quoting Osho, because I won't.) The following is in my own words: Yoga is suppression of the "daily self" in order to feel the "center self" and allow it to grow and take predominance. Tantra, he says, does not believe that there is good or bad, and therefore its methods do not make us suppress what we view as our negative aspects. Instead, Tantra has us use everything about ourselves as a stepping stone, and thus become a whole, "centered self." Tantra and Yoga both achieve the same end result, but their methods are contrary.
And then Jin also said:
and this writer's mind was blown. Thank you for that, Jin. Gotta be careful in the world these days, but love and compassion should be all that we communicate to others. Being careful means learning learning learning always and ever.
What an interesting thread this has become; I thank all of you who have posted and contributed their thoughts. We are all on our own journeys in this life, and when we share thoughts like this I feel assured that no matter the possible differences between us, we are not so different that we cannot, at least in some, perhaps "transcendental," way, be as one.
The main thing that attracted me was what Osho said about the differences betwixt Tantra and Yoga. (Please don't try to make me regret quoting Osho, because I won't.) The following is in my own words: Yoga is suppression of the "daily self" in order to feel the "center self" and allow it to grow and take predominance. Tantra, he says, does not believe that there is good or bad, and therefore its methods do not make us suppress what we view as our negative aspects. Instead, Tantra has us use everything about ourselves as a stepping stone, and thus become a whole, "centered self." Tantra and Yoga both achieve the same end result, but their methods are contrary.
And then Jin also said:
and this writer's mind was blown. Thank you for that, Jin. Gotta be careful in the world these days, but love and compassion should be all that we communicate to others. Being careful means learning learning learning always and ever.
What an interesting thread this has become; I thank all of you who have posted and contributed their thoughts. We are all on our own journeys in this life, and when we share thoughts like this I feel assured that no matter the possible differences between us, we are not so different that we cannot, at least in some, perhaps "transcendental," way, be as one.
Jin
yes
Rising Spirit said:
you were really lucky to meet these spiritual leaders like Sri Swami Satchidananda , Sri Swami Sivananda
but the times have changed very much since then , spirituality has lost all meaning in the country , all the spiritual leaders of today are not like them atall , i know exactly what you mean , being a vaisnava myself i can attest to the fact that such great leaders are now not present atall , spirituality has become a big buissness , my own Guru never took a $ from me ever , he was great and very cool as well ,he lived in a jungle cave and never needed anything from anyone , he taught me the most important thing in life , i think he was the last master , he also died many years ago
soma - yes syrian rue is used in this drink , it is derived from amanita muscaria , and hashish is also used in the drink , but not datura ,
from what i know these three are the main igredients - syrian rue , amanita , hashish , also few herbs and spices can be used , you still get soma in parts of pakistan and afganistan till date but not anymore in india
i reffered to datura because i have met many flipped out westerners and indians ( evrybody goes mad with this )in the mountains who have been tricked by sadhus to smoke with them , they don't even tell you that there is datura in that , they just mix it with the hash you get and later rob the westerners once the effects start happenin
also i realised just now about the f word , i am going to delete it as i just realised , i apologise for the same , this is the last of my cursing , i did not realize how unconsciously this stupid habit had ingrained itself , apologise to all , thank you for understanding
or, a certain arylcyclohexylamine.
a wise man on phencyclidine once said, "god is with me, and I can move mountains."
a wise man on phencyclidine once said, "god is with me, and I can move mountains."
..i agree the money (and his(Osho's) ashram) were bulldust..(i concur with Rising Spirit's "devlish"/teacher allusion - like Castenada's "petty tyrant").
I just don't see why we can't discuss his ideas (however repetitious/marketed) without getting stuck into him.
I'd rather get stuck into people who still make money out of the franchise..
The true sages are here, aren't they?
p.s. Jin isn't (in some traditions) datura shiva's plant, cannabis pavati's (or kali's)? thus, for balance, they are taken together?
I just don't see why we can't discuss his ideas (however repetitious/marketed) without getting stuck into him.
I'd rather get stuck into people who still make money out of the franchise..
The true sages are here, aren't they?
p.s. Jin isn't (in some traditions) datura shiva's plant, cannabis pavati's (or kali's)? thus, for balance, they are taken together?
..i interpret the word tantra to mean "expansion"...
bluntmuffin
Rising Star
Woof. Woof. Woof woof.
What's that dogma? You hear someone?
What's that dogma? You hear someone?
marelyman said:
Really? Please share a little more. I can't really say with any authority, as I have only used it to placate nausea with Peyote (Mescalito). Can you share something more specific and descriptive about this plant? I know that historically, bronze images of Lord Shiva from the 10th and 11th centuries AD, show Natrayana (The Dancing Shiva) with Datura flowers interwoven in his hair. So yes, Shivite Sadhus were using Jimson Weed and potent hashish for a few thousand years prior to our births.
I personally don't like deliriants and dysphoriants. What is it that you find so fascinating? Please understand, that's not a challenge and I don't mean any disrespect. I just have so little to go by, other than to smooth the ripples the cactus presents, that I cannot judge the effects on their own. Dreamy, objective visions or what? From everything that I've read, since the days I was delving into the Carlos Castaneda sagas, I have thought I wouldn't really like the head-set that Datura gifts.
Salvia Divinorum is about as much of a dissociative that I can stomach. Shucks... that's because she is so freakin' psychedelic and multidimensional that I can't look away. Gotta love Lady Salvia. And fear? Oh yes, a terror which squeezes one from the inside out and folds one into a microcosm of it's own. Electric jelly pulp, folded in zigzag fashion, to be specific. :shock:
dedalus said:
I have to say that Osho is putting his own conceptual spin on his business competition with this oversimplification and frankly, business-oriented distortion of the historical truth. Yoga means "union". It implies a eclipsing of the ego-self with the Indivisible Self. It is a merging not a suppression. Is this not intercourse in it's most fundamental form? I may be the archetypal Rip Van Winkle but I know sex when I perceive it before my very mind. Hahaha... After all, I am a Scorpio. :twisted:
Now, the practice of strict Yogic asceticism is another story, altogether. But let's just think for a brief moment before we accept the definition which Osho puts forth on the polarity of Yoga and Tantra. Shall we? This is a quote of his and I think it is most pertinent and significant to this captivating discussion.
Oshso said:
I suspect this definition has more to do with the mass marketing in the Western countries (especially in America), of the new Eastern systems of philosophy of the month, which took place in the 1960's and 1970's. I been through most of them, starting in 1974 and each new spiritual phenomenon had it's own cult heroes and for lack of a better phrase, sales pitch. Yoga was the big deal in the sixties and early seventies. Zen came up in the late sixties and became in vogue by the late seventies. About this time, Tantra came along to jump-start the folks who had gotten bored with Yoga and wanted more ecstasy (and a few terrific orgasms) than Zen indulges in. And who can blame them, eh? :lol:
Take a good look into the teachings of Amanda Marga and you will get a more seasoned, mature view of Tantra. it wasn't a sex, drugs and rock n' roll philosophy. It was a non-dualistic frame of mind, which did not separate the causative Godhead form the earth and the material plane of existence.
Please forgive my long-winded extrapolations... but I want it to be very clear, that the Western perception of Tantra has very, very little to do with the historical system which predates the fad by centuries.
wikipedia said:
Yeah, yeah, yeah... it's always nice to hear from a know-it-all on the topic. or i ti? Let's ace it, nobody likes a know-it-all and don't nobody invite a MACHINE to a rave. Some people just don't lie dictionaries, encyclopedias or thesauruses. Go figure??? :lol:
nen888 said:
Let's face it, the age of external Gurus is nearly over and done. Why would we need to perpetuate this tradition, when we have together understood that the true teacher lies within??? Swami Yogananda said it in the 1930's-1950's, Swami Satchidananda said it in the 1970's-2000's. Osho has said so too, in his hey day. Of course, he was already a well-paid, sexually satiated God-King, so why not be NOT magnanimous when you are retiring as a "Bhagwan"? Sadly, he died on the run from the authorities, with no country willing to give him sanctuary. Especially India!!! We do actually do reap what we sow.
This must be taken in the light which it was emphatically proclaimed. Most of these guys were pretty astute fellows. They all knew that we were all just on the brink of a greater collective awakening. It was so prevalent in the "psychedelic era", that we all thought that the anthem coined by the musician Graham Nash (AKA: Crosby, Stills and Nash), Chicago, was just about to blossom before us all. "We can change the world. it's dying... to get better." Please tell me you guys know who Crosby, Stills and Nash are? Yes? Don't make me feel like an old fart.
..according to my friend, Osho said that psychedleics (entheogens) would replace the guru system.
I can't help but feeling that TANTRA is an oft branded about word, with little general consensus as to it's meaning.
So if the SCIENCE aspect could be defined, the title of this thread may be as good a definition as any...
(Datura's are probably the most widely utilised (i.e every inhabited continent) visionary plants of all, but the least understood in the 'west'.
is always great to hear from anyone with expertise in this field...)
I can't help but feeling that TANTRA is an oft branded about word, with little general consensus as to it's meaning.
So if the SCIENCE aspect could be defined, the title of this thread may be as good a definition as any...
(Datura's are probably the most widely utilised (i.e every inhabited continent) visionary plants of all, but the least understood in the 'west'.
is always great to hear from anyone with expertise in this field...)
nen888 said:
Hmmm... maybe Osho changed his mind post 1975? Why back in the day, he was one of the staunchest adversaries to the tripping generation. Is this your friend's own personal interpretation of this madcap "Gurus" public stance? Read his booklet, LSD: Shortcut To False Samadhi He leaves NOTHING to conjecture about his disdain for entheogens. Before you repeat secondhand comments, research the source.
Forgive me if I am being challenging towards your buddy's spin on the Swami's stance. It just goes against the grain of logic. As per his documented statements... he seemed to have a dismissive attitude about psychedelics! They were a threat to his hypnotism and mass manipulations. Only room for one Godhead on the stage, after all. Be free, my friend. Sri Swami Bhagwan Rajneesh openly condemned psychedelics like LSD, mescaline and P. mushrooms for over 30 years. Are you absolutely sure about this???
Maybe he might have smoked Spice and changed his mind about entheogens? Anything is possible, although somehow, I doubt this is so. But who knows? I'm just sayin'... that it flies 180 degrees opposite his proclamations for over 30 years of pedantic repetition. I doubt this is true. Conversely, Sages like Swami Satchidananda, Neem Karoli Baba and Pir Vilayat Khan, embraced the psychedelic hippies with loving arms and an open tolerance for the chemical effects that these Sacred Medicines gift to their imbibers. As they facilitate the immersion within the Clear Light of the Void, I honor and respect their role in activation the higher centers of the brain. Hell, that's enough for me!!! And you guys??? :?: