The ayahuasca lessons

[bodhi]

Thank you olympus mon, your words resound deeply within me.


"In this world, only an act of observation can confer shape and form to reality"

"It’s you, the observer, who collapses reality. Consciousness is one side of the equation, and matter and energy the other. In these days of experiment and disconnected theory, one point seems certain: the nature of the universe can’t be divorced from the nature of life itself."

Biocentrism

 

[SWIMfriend]

the end, it comes down to a personal perspective I've developed over a LONG HARD ROAD: the transfer of "real" knowledge is impossible...we're all on our own...and we all have to learn...by learning--and in the end, there's really nothing to tell one another...all we might really do in the end is look at one another and smile...

When the student is ready the teacher will appear.

Ah! Cliches! Always handy!

 

[SWIMfriend]

Use words to GUIDE ME to reality and I'll be forever grateful. Attempt to wrap up reality as a concept and tell it to me and I'll....jump aside so it misses me. It's POINTLESS.

I think the issue is that you believe that all these conversations are operating at the conceptual level. That's what Oly is reaching at when he says the difference between being shown and being told in these lessons.

Sure. I'm not saying people can't communicate. But they CAN'T communicate..."knowing." And by the same token, relaying what you "know" is therefore...a senseless act...and if you DO IT...it almost implies that you DON'T know...almost.

Wanting to decompress, or to share the excitement of discovery is OK--but in that case, a detailed explication really misses the point....sort of.

 

[SWIMfriend]

And I'm...unsettled?...suspicious?....maybe even amused by those who want to hand out such pearls--who even (I believe mistakenly) SEE THEM as pearls.

Now I hope people won't feel OFFENDED by that; because I don't INTEND OFFENSE...

swimfriend- is this comment directed at me?

It's directed at anyone who might want to take offense. I would say it's directed at you THE LEAST...because experience reports are good and appropriate.

I'm more disturbed by those who want to DELINEATE some idea/description and say, in effect, "Now THAT'S reality...there it is, I've been there, I've mapped it out and bundled it up for you: now enjoy!" I really do think anyone saying that is demonstrating, almost perfectly, that they know NOTHING about reality... (and, let's please not take offense at THAT either--because I don't intend it to exactly describe any one poster, either).


I'm all for encouraging one another, sharing experiences, being a place to express the wonder...
...but I get buggy when some want to say just what the wonder IS and what it ISN'T...and...to some extent...even TALKING ABOUT IT from an experience is sort of actually DOING THAT.

 

[Sky Motion]

Hat off to you sir that was quite the read.

I am so happy for you OM to be able to have such experiences and work with ayahuasca in a absolute perfect setting, much love to you and the shaman's and I can't wait to hear more!

 

[olympus mon]

thank you sky motion, im happy to hear people enjoyed the trip report.

swimfriend- i feel your being unfair to people myself included in your reply's And although you keep saying you mean no offence your words say other wise.

your attitude seems to say, "its fine to look for answers to these questions, but if you find any then its all rubbish because of the complexity." and even worse if god for bid you choose to discuss your ideas. For me your correct, there is no way for you to disagree with me because ive claimed nothing. I shared a trip i had. period. It was a very deep and powerful experience and yes it has had a large impact on me.

Why do you get so offended and riled up if these words resonate with people? why use snarky comments such as being amused by other peoples naiveness? And most of all "the handing out of pearls".

People enjoyed the read, obviously you did not and if you read my first paragraph i even stated to simply disregard the writings if that's what feels right for you. Unfortunately you seem to feel the need to shit all over this thread with what i see as negative and condescending speech, and that IS offensive whether you put some meaningless side note of it not being your intention or not.

I've learned over the years now this is just your way and i try to take it all with a grain of salt. This experience has a lot of meaning to me and i am happy other people find it interesting. I will re-read the thread but to be honest I dont re-call anyone claiming to KNOW anything. People have simply stated that they have had similar experiences or thoughts, that's all I've seen.

Your not the only one with a right to his/her opinion and ideas. We all have that right and i feel everyone has respected your ideas and thoughts respectfully even when disagreeing. Everyone here deserves the same amount of allowance and respect that you have been given so maybe you need to step back and check yourself as to why this hits such a sensitive nerve in you before you post.

I am not looking to get into it with you swim friend but the choice is ours to make. you've said more than your share and now ive said mine. i hope it can end without one of those nexus back and forth.
of coarse ill read your response as your surely have a right and desire to respond. I may or may not continue though. i feel ive said my feelings and im satisfied with that.

truce?

 

[pau]

O.M. .... its maybe the first time I can say "Thanks for sharing" and REALLY mean it!
These writings and pics are truly a gift to all of us here.

 

[SWIMfriend]

There's no need for a back and forth, OM. I have certain "ideas" that I want to put out for those who may find them important. This thread seemed to call out for that. As you said, you see them as "shit." Others may not (there's no telling with these things).

I really don't mean to cause offense. But sometimes, I suppose a view that could be called "contrary" IS somewhat offensive to those who hold another view. I don't know what to say about that...

...Certainly, my views are not meant to be DESTRUCTIVE to anyone's presence, and I can assure you that my ideas are "well-considered"--as far as such a statement goes. Beyond that, they're just out there for anyone to take as they please... What else can a poster do?

I'll leave your thread unmolested any further, though. OK?

 

[endlessness]

Oly, thanks for sharing your lessons regarding it! Very interesting stuff.. Some things I resonate with, others not so much, but Im glad you are living through this transformative experience and im sure you'll come out a stronger person from it. Its inevitable that if you go back to the 'normal' western world, it will be a challenge to keep the attitude up, but thats how it is, life isnt easy and we will all, till the day we die, be struggling with integration and making mistakes and learning and slowly finding just who the hell we are

I dont think you guys should feel negatively about SWIMfriend's posts. I think the very fact he didnt directly agree, and rather brought a differing perspective, makes this thread richer. I think that, even though indeed we only have our subjectivity in the end, we must still continually ask ourselves if our perceptions and interpretations might not be mistaken, or lacking. I dont see anything harmful about oly's vision of the universe, but this doesnt mean its correct, of course. Maybe (most likely?) we humans just cannot fathom what the universe really is about, and different experiences make us shape a model for it. But thats not the point here. I think the point is to, since you had this experience, ask yourself questions, like..

Can this model help me in my daily life? If so how? And if so, how to potentiate the benefits I can get from it? If not, why have this model in the first place?
Can this model help others too, and if so, how?
Can this model be limiting or harmful in any way? If so, is there a way to 'test' it, or at least do diminish the potential problems with it?
If this model was incorrect, what would be the consequences of the mistake?

Or other similr questions.

In any case, please do keep us updated on more of your lessons, and on how they maintain or change in mid and long term.

Be well!

 

[christian]

Thanks for that report, Jeff.

I have recently been doing quite a bit of self realization myself, and was directed to the website of Bert Harding when i raised the question of "Who am i" on another website. Your Ayahuasca experiences seem to ring similar to what Bert explains. Actually it all takes a lot of time and integration to get to grips with all of this stuff as you know. It can be quite a challenge to get to grips with it all, and then return to society and find that Society is operating and mostly functioning beast running on powerstations of fear.
I guess us humans spend most of our lives justifying our own existence to ourselves. It's the only way we can realise that we actually exist i guess.. Anway, looking forward to the next installment, and more photos!!

 

[polytrip]

And I'm...unsettled?...suspicious?....maybe even amused by those who want to hand out such pearls--who even (I believe mistakenly) SEE THEM as pearls.

Now I hope people won't feel OFFENDED by that; because I don't INTEND OFFENSE...

swimfriend- is this comment directed at me?

It's directed at anyone who might want to take offense. I would say it's directed at you THE LEAST...because experience reports are good and appropriate.

I'm more disturbed by those who want to DELINEATE some idea/description and say, in effect, "Now THAT'S reality...there it is, I've been there, I've mapped it out and bundled it up for you: now enjoy!" I really do think anyone saying that is demonstrating, almost perfectly, that they know NOTHING about reality... (and, let's please not take offense at THAT either--because I don't intend it to exactly describe any one poster, either).


I'm all for encouraging one another, sharing experiences, being a place to express the wonder...
...but I get buggy when some want to say just what the wonder IS and what it ISN'T...and...to some extent...even TALKING ABOUT IT from an experience is sort of actually DOING THAT.

I don´t think this thread is about 'the truth' in the sense that anybody is making any claims like 'this is the way it is'.

I do believe though, that ayahuasca can give you insights that can be helpfull or important. And that´s not a contradiction at all.

To experience being connected...is just an important experience. Every person normally feels some sort of connectedness. Ayahuasca just makes you extremely aware of it. You´re like a fish that for the first time realises the importance of water in his life: ofcourse the fish always knew, but he never realy 'saw' it.

The experience of being a part of something greater than yourself is just the most important thing there is. It is not a claim for truth but it is an elementary sort of feeling that each person NEEDS, in order to be able to live a good life. You just need that connection with the world, that concept of one-ness to simply be able to make the right decissions, to manouvre yourself the right way.

Or you won´t just be a dog that chases it´s own tail. You may even bite it.

 

[christian]

I do believe though, that ayahuasca can give you insights that can be helpfull or important.

Yea, that just about sums it up nicely.

Our reality is mostly based on our conditioning. Use Ayahuasca to remove this conditioning "trick" of defining our reality and what you have left is a much more honest picture, where judging is absent and reality seen more clearly. I guess the "knowing" feeling comes from making such realisations without any thinking at all, and the realisation that thinking is how we trap ourselves.
Reality is to us Humans something that we can label, but the reality about reality is that we only know what we have identified as knowing, and Ayahuasca fit's the mystery gap nicely and teaches that our so called knowledge and understanding is so miniscule that it isn't worth overprotecting because by doing so we impose limits.

 

[olympus mon]

endlessness- Thank you as always for your wise wise words and insights. its always appreciated. I too have thought about what it will be like when i return home and im a bit nervous to be honest. no home, no job, no car, not even a piece of furniture,:lol: , but thats exaclty what i wanted. A lighter load in life for a while.
after BM this summer my girlfriend and I will be moving here for good. i have fallen in love twice, once with a girl and again with Peru. Im hoping we can hook up you and I next time when i return:d .

I just want to clarify some things with something's you mentioned as well as with swimfriend.
Firstly, i can only speak for myself but i also feel nobody else here has taken offence to swim's opposing view point especially me. In a way im kind of surprised you would think that. I was just walking this morning only 30 min ago to the immigration office when i decided i would clarify this very point with swimfriend as soon as i got back because i DONT want him to leave the conversation!

I for one welcome opposing opinions as well as questions and doubts for a couple reasons. One, it brings balance to life and in this case the nexus, and 2 it really makes you think hard and better understand your own point of view.
However delivery of your message matters, especially on the nexus. I and im pretty sure nobody else was upset at swim's decent or doubts, it was his condescending tone, and yes i found some comments disrespectful to myself and others. Like i said delivery matters.

So swimfriend, if your reading this i want to say thank you for contributing and NO i don't want you to not share your ideas but people shouldn't be called naive if these words resonate with them. Thats just not fair. Im very happy they do and its why i shared this experience.

Also i didn't call your ideas shit when i said you felt the need to shit all over the thread. I meant just that. In hindsight i am sorry for saying that. I dont think you ideas are shit and if you recall i even said in a reply that i understand where your coming from. I DONT necessarily think this model i was shown is truth nor a complete explanation of reality. ive said that multiple times in the op as well as in my reply's. It simply resonates with me strongly as well as others.

Like you more or less said endlessness it has the same probability of being true as any other theory and to be honest it doesn't matter any ways whether it is or isn't. Its an interesting read, and was a very powerful personal experience. How it helps shape and mold me is what counts and that i agree with 100%. Thank you endlessness, thank you swimfriend and thank you everyone else for what I consider a very great conversation on all sides.

 

[olympus mon]

The experience of being a part of something greater than yourself is just the most important thing there is. It is not a claim for truth but it is an elementary sort of feeling that each person NEEDS, in order to be able to live a good life. You just need that connection with the world, that concept of one-ness to simply be able to make the right decissions, to manouvre yourself the right way.

WOW man! Thank you Polytrip, these words are so well put and sum up exactly how i feel right now! brilliant!

 

[SWIMfriend]

Thanks, OM, for saying you don't wish to exclude my ideas from the thread. And AGAIN, I really do hope (and insist) that you will take me at my word that my intention is not to disparage specific people--and CERTAINLY not to disparage experiences.

I come back to try again, because the example given here, regarding this video (oops, just tried to link, and I see youtube took the video down--flagging of these things DOES work), I think will help me to better clarify the point I'm trying to make.

So first let me describe the video: A preppy-looking wise-guy...

OK, wait. I tried to look the guy's username up, and from THERE, the video CAN be seen. If you can't see it, have a look at some of the guy's other videos, and you'll see what he's about.

Anyway, I'll continue with a description of the video in case people can't see it: This guy actually gets drugs sent to him in the mail by fans, which he then uses on video for people to see. He's just a "fuckin' trippin' BALLS" kinda guy, and just does this to show off--about the FARTHEST thing from anything spiritual that could be imagined. YET, after he vapes some DMT it's clear for a bit that he SAW SOMETHING VERY SIGNIFICANT in the experience...which he then just shrugs off, and continues on with his pointless existence.


So....

The clarification that I want to make--the PROCESS as I see it--is that the value of DMT is in the integration of experiences into one's life, in order to learn and grow. And I believe this and see things this way to the extent that I would nearly say that the experience itself means NOTHING and is not the point, and what means something is what you MAKE of the experience, and of what you BECOME in response to the experience...i.e., integration, learning, and growth.

And the IMPLICATION of that is that it's nearly useless to talk about the details of experiences, and that the details of the experiences are almost SUPERFLUOUS, and also that, "facts" and "realities" (like, say, entities) from experiences are NOT IMPORTANT--that what's important is learning about YOURSELF (or, fundamentally, WHAT YOU ARE) through experiences.

It's the idea that the purpose of journeying is not to find gold and bring it home, it's that the journey shows you that gold is everywhere, so you don't HAVE TO bring any home with you. If you see what I mean...

...and maybe not, because it's still not easy to exactly articulate what I'm trying to say that makes it EASY to see...

DMT is more than capable of provided an ENDLESS SEA of experiences. So attempting to COLLECT such experiences, or attempting to SEARCH for exactly the "most revealing" experiences is...just another circle of life, just another endless path one can put oneself on and delude oneself about thinking one is "getting somewhere."

So I'm trying to say that the "getting somewhere" is the process of integration and learning and GROWTH--and is NOT the details of any one experience, or the finding of the "final truth" about exactly what the universe "is" or "isn't."

And the reason I bring this all up, is that I think it's IMPORTANT for many people to make the distinction--to see that there are TWO PATHS one maight go down in DMT experience, and that they are DIFFERENT, and that, in my opinion, one is a waste of time (or even worse), while the other is sublime:

In one path, one can SEARCH, and feel that hyperspace is the place to FIND TRUTH--which then prompts one onto an endless journey through hyperspace, forever finding new and "greater" truths to build a "truth-filled" ego that's quite an ego to behold!

In the other, one sees things one had never SEEN before, and learns about the SEER that's seeing them, i.e., learns about consciousness--and I think we'll all agree, consciousness is consciousness, "it" is "it." And that maybe ONE hyperspace visit is enough to spend a lifetime integrating (or not, just saying). And that that experiences will not serve as more fodder for an ego--but as EVIDENCE that the ego isn't "the thing," etc.

And I think it's easy to perhaps CONFUSE and CONFOUND those two very different paths...and I think that if one doesn't clearly RECOGNIZE the difference between them, then...that's a bit of trouble, too.

That's sort of the point I'm trying to make. Sorry if it's still not crystal clear. But I do want to get it out there for anyone who might, by chance, find benefit from it. I really don't have any more I can say about it.

...but thanks again for inviting me to have my say...


EDIT: hehe...I just have to add, after looking more at the guy's channel and watching his video again: he has NOT COME BACK TO YOUTUBE, or made anymore videos, since his DMT experience!

 

[olympus mon]

swimfriend- WOW! you have explained your thoughts perfectly and I agree with a lot you just said
Its given me much food for thought.

I've always wanted to be of service this communtiy that as much as it has served me and my growth and. Part of that is wanting to share what im doing and learning here in Peru in hopes that others could benefit as well. Perhaps that isn't serving anyone at all.Perhaps this is serving my ego although not at all my intention.

Maybe I should keep these experiences to myself. But I guess I now wonder then what is the point in even having a trip report forum?

I've never been much into trip reports. I've written a handful over the years but honestly i dont read them and rarely feel the need to share them until something quite remarkable happened as in this case.

delivery matters, and you have now delivered your thoughts extremely well. im very glad you have stayed in this conversation. i think many people will take a lot away from all this and most notably for me your most recent [post.

thank you.

 

[SWIMfriend]

Well...hold on! It's not my intention to....discourage trip reports!

But yeah, I agree: the contents of trip reports don't particularly interest me. I'm more interested in encouraging people who have a positive outcome and a positive spirit about what they have experienced, etc. It's cheerleading, and cheerleading is GOOD if you're promoting something good (and not so good, if not).

MY GOAL (and, obviously, your goal) is to promote good things for people; for everyone to learn and grow and help each other learn and grow...

It's great when people can find positive feelings and useful guidance from the posts of others, that's all. Thanks for finding a way to get something positive from my post--THAT is a testament to your open heart, OM.

 

[jamie]

I dont really agree that the content does not matter. The content is what you have to integrate..without content there is nothing to integrate. The content of an ayahuasca experience is what seperates it from a meth experience or an alcohol experience etc. Content is the visionary, psychological, spiritual and physical aspects of the experience.

To sort of shrug off this aspect and then focus on integration of that same experience just sort of makes little sense to me.

Integration is very important and in the end what you are able to integrate is what you take away, I guess. That does not mean that there are still deeper aspects of an experience that far more perplexing and and dumbfounding than we can can imagine, and I dont know how we can just integrate that other than accepting it what it is..something we cant explain and just being humbled by it.

There are equally perplexing aspects to the our own physical existance that I can imagine I dont even need to mention here..yet the content of our daily lives is important enough to us that we seek endlessly to explain it all with science..

I have accepted that there are deeper levels of experience and based on the fact that what I have exerpeinced of these levels seems to mirror what many others have experienced, I can only assume that there is some level of objectivity that runs through those experiences.

To say a given experience is just subjective or objective is an overstatement anyway I find. Nothing is ever really that linear and black and white. Threads of both objectivity and subjectivity run through all experiences I think, to some degree or another.

 

[SWIMfriend]

I dont really agree that the content does not matter. The content is what you have to integrate..without content there is nothing to integrate. The content of an ayahuasca experience is what seperates it from a meth experience or an alcohol experience etc. Content is the visionary, psychological, spiritual and physical aspects of the experience.

To sort of shrug off this aspect and then focus on integration of that same experience just sort of makes little sense to me.

I'm trying to think of an example...and from one perspective, almost EVERYTHING is an example:

Take for example watching a sports game on TV. Of course, the score, the outcome, is "everything," it's the REASON the game is being played. But...is it? First of all, if only the score mattered, why watch? You could just get the score from the news. But even more, after the experience, it's more interesting to consider, perhaps, some individual plays, how talented some of the players are, how it's interesting that a single mistake or right move at the right time can make all the difference...and it can go on and on. And any lasting MEANING you get from it will have nothing to do with the score--it will be what you took from the experience.

The content MATTERS...but it really only matters as far as what you learn from it--or maybe, if you like, the IMPLICATIONS of it. And creating a "library" of the experiences: "OK, here's the colors that entities prefer," etc. is not a useful library (but OTOH, libraries ARE useful, too--but maybe for a different sort of task, etc.).

Still, I feel it's USEFUL and IMPORTANT to point out that not only is content definitely not the ONLY thing about an experience, but from one point of view, it may not be the most important or useful part of an experience...and even, in the long view, that it may be among the LEAST important parts of an experience.

I simply want to put that idea on the table for consideration...


....and, let me be more specific: To me it relates to Buddhist ideas, and ideas that egos LOVE to grasp things, and to come to believe that to "get what they want" they have to grasp things and, therefore, hunt for the right things to GRASP. I think that Buddhism is particularly good at pointing out to us how that can EASILY turn into JUST ONE MORE ENDLESS JOURNEY IN A CIRCLE, and that the better process is not grasping things, but LEARNING things--and that the goal is to LEARN the right things, rather than GRASP the right things.

 

[BecometheOther]

Jamie, i totally agree with your last post.

I cant find the words to explain my stance, but i think it is crazy to believe that the content of the vision is meaningless, and its the "integration" that matters. For one thing i find that to be a highly "black and white, line in the sand" type of statement, for another i have had mystical experiences myself and the content of those visions never ceases to inspire and direct me in life.

The truth in life is to revel in extacy and enjoy life. There is no truth, truth is a word. Subjective experience is all we have as humans, to say our own perceptions and expereicnes are meaningless food for the ego is to take away much of what makes our lifes worth living.

Thank you sooo much olympus mon, i read all of your posts, and your journey fascinates me, i hope to make one of my own someday soon